Iraq Surrenders.

[Superlative]

My overall point is that it is very easy for foreign nations and their citizens to criticize the US; it is quite another for those same nations to step up to the plate and do any better. None have volunteered that I know of and none have at least tried. Europe as a whole ignored Kosovo, Dafur, Somalia and a host of other places as did just about every other nation on the planet. There is a lot of comfort in being willfully ignorant.

I will look into it, but could you tell me where, if any, there are countries that have succeeded in establishing Democratic rule, and financial stability without the help of the US?

Versus those in which the US has intervened in the name of peace or something else?

 

[Annie]

I will look into it, but could you tell me where, if any, there are countries that have succeeded in establishing Democratic rule, and financial stability without the help of the US?

Versus those in which the US has intervened in the name of peace or something else?

If any exist, should we give a damn? Seriously. We've given life blood in Iraq and Afghanistan and been ridiculed and slammed. What is the point?

Let the ME embalm themselves, they are well on their way. Let Africa die because they were too backward to deal with the English and Spanish, later the French. Not our problem.

 

[CSM]

I will look into it, but could you tell me where, if any, there are countries that have succeeded in establishing Democratic rule, and financial stability without the help of the US?

Not without some research and I just do not care enough to look. I suppose there cold be one or two.

Versus those in which the US has intervened in the name of peace or something else?

Don't get me wrong. I am very pro-US. I am, however, fed up with the US being made the scapegoat for all the ills of the world. Let the world fend for itself. I'm with Kathianne on this one. Pay our own way for what we don't have and if some other nation gets themselves in a fix then they can just darn well get themselves out of it.

 

[Larkinn]

If any exist, should we give a damn? Seriously. We've given life blood in Iraq and Afghanistan and been ridiculed and slammed. What is the point?

we've taken a LOT more than we've given.

Let Africa die because they were too backward to deal with the English and Spanish, later the French. Not our problem.

How terribly humane of you.

Yep, that was my point too. Drop them, like a stone. US for United States, pay fair price for what is not available here. No more handouts, no more protection of life or military. Never should this be a 3rd world or less scenario. Seriously, no more defense of Europe, Japan, S. Korea, Africa, etc.

Extremely short-sighted and foolish. Sure, lets leave the world alone. I mean if Pakistan and India nuke each other to death it won't effect us...right

My overall point is that it is very easy for foreign nations and their citizens to criticize the US; it is quite another for those same nations to step up to the plate and do any better. None have volunteered that I know of and none have at least tried. Europe as a whole ignored Kosovo, Dafur, Somalia and a host of other places as did just about every other nation on the planet. There is a lot of comfort in being willfully ignorant.

If they had the massive amount of power the US has, perhaps they would try. Besides that the US does not have a great track record in those places either.

 

[CSM]

we've taken a LOT more than we've given.

Really?? What exactly have we TAKEN from Iraq? or any other country for that matter?

How terribly humane of you.

I can presme from this comment then that direct threats to national security are not the only reason acceptable to you for armed intervention in a sovereign nation.


Extremely short-sighted and foolish. Sure, lets leave the world alone. I mean if Pakistan and India nuke each other to death it won't effect us...right

Right. Why is that short sighted and foolish? Your opinion is not necessarily substantive enough.


If they had the massive amount of power the US has, perhaps they would try. Besides that the US does not have a great track record in those places either. Given that the US does not have a great track record why should the US even bother? Let those with a better track record handle it. Perhaps other nations should develop the power...oh wait, nost European nations had massive power at one time or another!

You cannot argue for both sides...either the US is capable and responsible for acting globally or it is not.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Iraq was not a soveriegn nation, saddam was not democratically elected, and there was never a democratic election during the time which he was in power (meaning someone leggitametely allowed to run against him)

Iraq was not utopia before we got there, despire our mistakes since we got there

 

[CSM]

Iraq was not a soveriegn nation, saddam was not democratically elected, and there was never a democratic election during the time which he was in power (meaning someone leggitametely allowed to run against him)

Iraq was not utopia before we got there, despire our mistakes since we got there

Iraq was not a sovereign nation??? How do you reach that conclusion?

I agree with the rest of this particular post.

 

[maineman]

Iraq was not a soveriegn nation, saddam was not democratically elected, and there was never a democratic election during the time which he was in power (meaning someone leggitametely allowed to run against him)

Iraq was not utopia before we got there, despire our mistakes since we got there

sovereignty is not in the least bit dependent upon democracy. Iraq most certainly WAS a sovereign nation.

 

[Larkinn]

Blood. A lot of Iraqis have died since the invasion.

I can presme from this comment then that direct threats to national security are not the only reason acceptable to you for armed intervention in a sovereign nation.

You presume correctly.

Right. Why is that short sighted and foolish? Your opinion is not necessarily substantive enough.

Ah no, let me go and find my crystal ball and peer into the future. Or shall I quote other people who are just posting their opinions about the future?

Most political views are opinions. Because if they were facts we wouldn't be disagreeing about them.

Given that the US does not have a great track record why should the US even bother? Let those with a better track record handle it. Perhaps other nations should develop the power...oh wait, nost European nations had massive power at one time or another!

If at first you don't succeed....give up because you never will. I don't particularly like that philosophy. The US can do a great deal of good around the world. At the moment it has somewhat of a mixed track record...in some places better than others. If it was interested in helping people for humanitarian reasons it could do tremendous good.

Considering the massive historical differences between now and when European powers were, well, powerful, I don't think its an apt comparison.

You cannot argue for both sides...either the US is capable and responsible for acting globally or it is not.

Being capable of something and actually doing it are two very different things. The US is capable and responsible for acting globally. But that does not mean every global action is a good one.

 

[CSM]

Blood. A lot of Iraqis have died since the invasion.

A lot more died BEFORE the invasion.

You presume correctly.

Good.


Ah no, let me go and find my crystal ball and peer into the future. Or shall I quote other people who are just posting their opinions about the future?

Also good. That means that your opinion is not necessarily correct.

Most political views are opinions. Because if they were facts we wouldn't be disagreeing about them.

Very astute.

If at first you don't succeed....give up because you never will. I don't particularly like that philosophy. The US can do a great deal of good around the world. At the moment it has somewhat of a mixed track record...in some places better than others. If it was interested in helping people for humanitarian reasons it could do tremendous good.

Hmmm, maybe we should try that sometime soon. Really, things like earthquakes and tsunamis come to mind....we should have helped out those poor unfortunates...oh wait, we did!

Considering the massive historical differences between now and when European powers were, well, powerful, I don't think its an apt comparison.

Of course you don't because we all KNOW what European nations did with their power.


Being capable of something and actually doing it are two very different things. The US is capable and responsible for acting globally. But that does not mean every global action is a good one. Exactly! [/QUOTE]

 

[Larkinn]

A lot more died BEFORE the invasion.

Iraq has become more destabilized and I'd be willing to bet, more people die per year, than before the invasion. Hence the massive exodus of the intellectuals/doctors/people with money out of the country.

Also good. That means that your opinion is not necessarily correct.

Derr? Of course not. Its my opinion. I believe it and will argue for it, but its very different from a fact.

Hmmm, maybe we should try that sometime soon. Really, things like earthquakes and tsunamis come to mind....we should have helped out those poor unfortunates...oh wait, we did!

Many times we have been shamed into helping them. Bush's first offer to the tsunami victims, the worst natural disaster in living memory, was $15 mil. Then the rest of the world managed to shame him into promising 350 mil. I haven't found any numbers, but if other "donations" are any indiciation, not all of the 350 mil was actually sent there.

By the way, as a proportion of our GDP the US government gives substantially less than pretty much all other industrialized countries. And not like their numbers are anything to be proud of either.

Of course you don't because we all KNOW what European nations did with their power.

Yup and at that time the US was busy lynching its black population. Oh no, wait, we hadn't gotten to the lynchings yet...we were still busy enslaving them.

 

[CSM]

Iraq has become more destabilized and I'd be willing to bet, more people die per year, than before the invasion. Hence the massive exodus of the intellectuals/doctors/people with money out of the country.

Good, then you wont mind backing up that allegation with a few links show the death rate under Saddam as compared to the death rate now.

Derr? Of course not. Its my opinion. I believe it and will argue for it, but its very different from a fact.



Many times we have been shamed into helping them. Bush's first offer to the tsunami victims, the worst natural disaster in living memory, was $15 mil. Then the rest of the world managed to shame him into promising 350 mil. I haven't found any numbers, but if other "donations" are any indiciation, not all of the 350 mil was actually sent there.

15 mil from the US compared to THE REST OF THE WORLD...hmm I guess we should have offered more than the rest of the world. Care to guess how much on average those other 200+ nations offered INDIVIDUALLY?

By the way, as a proportion of our GDP the US government gives substantially less than pretty much all other industrialized countries. And not like their numbers are anything to be proud of either.

That's a good thing. I don't think we should give the rest of the world a darned penny!


Yup and at that time the US was busy lynching its black population. Oh no, wait, we hadn't gotten to the lynchings yet...we were still busy enslaving them. Want to guess who was selling the US those slaves?

The whole point is there is enough blame and finger pointing to go around. As mch as some like to bash the US, this country is no worse than any other nation. Those countries and individuals that are so quick to denigrate the US haven't exactly cornered the market on ethics and morality.

 

[Larkinn]

Good, then you wont mind backing up that allegation with a few links show the death rate under Saddam as compared to the death rate now.

It was an assertion, not an allegation, and I am unsure of its truth hence the "I'd be willing to bet" not "it is true that..."

15 mil from the US compared to THE REST OF THE WORLD...hmm I guess we should have offered more than the rest of the world. Care to guess how much on average those other 200+ nations offered INDIVIDUALLY?

Ah yes, the US should be giving the same as Somalia, right?

By the way, there are only 194 countries in the world. Just so you know.

That's a good thing. I don't think we should give the rest of the world a darned penny!

Thats because you are a selfish SOB.

The whole point is there is enough blame and finger pointing to go around. As mch as some like to bash the US, this country is no worse than any other nation. Those countries and individuals that are so quick to denigrate the US haven't exactly cornered the market on ethics and morality.

Yes, actually it is worse than other nations. Its also better than most nations. I wasn't aware that you had to be a perfect person to point out someone elses imperfections. Perhaps instead of being so defensive and stupidly nationalistic, you could concentrate on what the US does wrong and try to fix those actions instead of, when confronted with US failures, say "well you arent' perfect either so nyaaah".

 

[actsnoblemartin]

three questions for you larkinn

why does the u.s. owe anyone a penny?

Secondly, who said america was perfect, some of us, just dont like america bashing.

thirdly, is there a problem with being nationalistic?

It was an assertion, not an allegation, and I am unsure of its truth hence the "I'd be willing to bet" not "it is true that..."



Ah yes, the US should be giving the same as Somalia, right?

By the way, there are only 194 countries in the world. Just so you know.



Thats because you are a selfish SOB.



Yes, actually it is worse than other nations. Its also better than most nations. I wasn't aware that you had to be a perfect person to point out someone elses imperfections. Perhaps instead of being so defensive and stupidly nationalistic, you could concentrate on what the US does wrong and try to fix those actions instead of, when confronted with US failures, say "well you arent' perfect either so nyaaah".

 

[CSM]

It was an assertion, not an allegation, and I am unsure of its truth hence the "I'd be willing to bet" not "it is true that..."

Your "assertion" is an "allegation" to me.

Ah yes, the US should be giving the same as Somalia, right?

Yep.

By the way, there are only 194 countries in the world. Just so you know.

Thanks. Of course 6 non-countries just blows away my whole point....right.

Thats because you are a selfish SOB.

Selfish maybe. How would you know the marital status of my parents?


Yes, actually it is worse than other nations. Sure it is, that's why we have so many darned people trying to sneak in. Its also better than most nations. I wasn't aware that you had to be a perfect person to point out someone elses imperfections. "Glass houses" and all that. Perhaps instead of being so defensive and stupidly nationalistic, You have no idea what my education level is, what my IQ is or any other metric. I guess then that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically "stupid". you could concentrate on what the US does wrong and try to fix those actions instead of, when confronted with US failures, say "well you arent' perfect either so nyaaah".
And you could concentrate on what the US does right and when confronted with US bashers like you, display just a wee bit of pride in your nation and point out that the US is NOT the great Satan you and others want it to be.

So far, all you have posted is opinion and conjecture (which you admit is not necessarily correct) colored by a dislike of the United States of America. Well, at least we know where you stand.

 

[onedomino]

You have no idea what my education level is, what my IQ is or any other metric. I guess then that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically "stupid".

Not only does Larkinn use the label "stupid," but also "idiotic" and "asinine" in other threads. When I pointed this out, I was labeled "sanctimonious."

 

[CSM]

Not only does Larkinn use the label "stupid," but also "idiotic" and "asinine" in other threads. When I pointed this out, I was labeled "sanctimonious."

LOL...you must be special!

 

[red states rule]

Not only does Larkinn use the label "stupid," but also "idiotic" and "asinine" in other threads. When I pointed this out, I was labeled "sanctimonious."

It is a sure sign when liberals are losing the debate when they fall back on insults

 

[Larkinn]

originally posted by acts noblemartin
why does the u.s. owe anyone a penny?

Pure human decency.

Secondly, who said america was perfect, some of us, just dont like america bashing.

Too many times people speak out against "America bashing" when really someone is merely providing a valid criticism of America.

thirdly, is there a problem with being nationalistic?

Its thinly veiled racism.

originally posted by CSM

Yep.

And why exactly, considering the US has vastly more than it needs to survive, while Somalia has vastly less than it needs to survive?

Thanks. Of course 6 non-countries just blows away my whole point....right.

I never claimed that it did, merely offering a correction of fact for you.

Selfish maybe. How would you know the marital status of my parents?

SOB means son of a *****, which has nothing to do with the marital status of your parents. The key part of that was selfish, the rest was just rhetoric designed to strengthen the selfish claim.

Sure it is, that's why we have so many darned people trying to sneak in.

What does people having to sneak have to do with the moral fibre of our nation? People sneak in because we have the strongest economy in the world, and they are in Mexico, which has a terribly weak economy.

"Glass houses" and all that.

Sure if the goal is to be sanctimonious. Rather, my goal is to make this country a better place to live, and improve its treatment of foreigners both at home and abroad. There ARE problems with this country, even you must admit that. Rather than attacking anyone who points those out, I would like to try and address those problems so they can be fixed.

You have no idea what my education level is, what my IQ is or any other metric. I guess then that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically "stupid"

Education level does not determine IQ. Rather, as was pointed out on another thread, it is your view that is stupid, not neccessarily you. But when you take one thing someone says and generalize to an entire population, as you just did, yes it makes you seem stupid.

And you could concentrate on what the US does right and when confronted with US bashers like you, display just a wee bit of pride in your nation and point out that the US is NOT the great Satan you and others want it to be.

Concentrating on what the US does right will do...what exactly? Give me a feeling of pride which will help people....how? Its the same reason I don't respond to peoples posts I agree with. I see no reason for a circle jerk of agreement either here, or in my political stance towards the US. I focus on things I think are wrong with the world, and hence need changing, as opposed to focusing on things that are right with the world...those I think I can generally ignore, since they are right, and work. I don't go outside every day to my car and look under the hook and sit there because I want to bask in it actually starting and running every day.

And the great Satan I want it to be? What the hell are you talking about? Did you miss that part where I said the US acts better than most other nations? This is the kind of shit that is ridiculous in this country. Someone criticizes the US and suddenly they hate the US and think its the great Satan? No, sorry, the US does a lot of good around the world and is, as I said before and you conveniently ignored, better than most nations. But that does not mean that it can't be validly criticized.

So far, all you have posted is opinion and conjecture (which you admit is not necessarily correct) colored by a dislike of the United States of America. Well, at least we know where you stand.

We are talking about moral issues and right and wrong, of course its all opinion. And no, its not colored by a dislike of the US, so no, despite me being pretty clear about it you seem to have no idea where I stand.

Not only does Larkinn use the label "stupid," but also "idiotic" and "asinine" in other threads. When I pointed this out, I was labeled "sanctimonious."

I should have added hypocritical when I went back and saw the names you have called me.

 

[mattskramer]

Blood. A lot of Iraqis have died since the invasion.

A lot more died BEFORE the invasion.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/LAN410A.html

Study: 100,000 Excess Civilian Iraqi Deaths Since War…

They found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442_pf.html

A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred….According to the survey results, Iraq's mortality rate in the year before the invasion was 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people; in the post-invasion period it was 13.3 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The difference between these rates was used to calculate "excess deaths."

http://vitw.org/archives/745

The Lancet, the world’s leading medical journal, has published an estimate that 98,000 Iraqis have died because of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. This estimate (usually approximated to 100,000 deaths) includes Iraqi civilians and insurgents, and includes all causes of death, both violent and nonviolent. The 100,000 figure is likely to be an under-estimate.

Naturally, the right-wing establishment dismisses the study. It goes after it with a magnifying glass and fine-tooth comb looking for fallacies. It will also post opinions and questions and criticisms of the study.

Even if this is not accurate, even if there were more deaths under Saddam, The USA can’t afford to be the world’s policeman and rid the world of all tyrants.