Invention of the 'Palestinian' People

[Shusha]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution.

I don't know what it is that you think my contribution says, but it sure doesn't confirm your twisted view of "facts". It corroborates my argument that you are conflating many things into one category in order to falsely prove your point. The table you cite and the reports made from the information on your table counts everything that is not Jewish privately owned land and as "Arab owned". That includes state land, foreign-owned land, land owned by all non-Jews, registered land, non-registered land, waqf land and vast tracts of desert dead lands. And you somehow want to conflate that into "privately-owned by Arab residents of Palestine".

And, again, even if you were correct, private ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I saw a six year old thread revived about the Jews being 'invented' and found an interesting link within it that I thought would be good material for an opposing thread.

The term “Palestinian,” ironically, was used during the British Mandate period (1922-1948) to identify the Jews of British Mandatory Palestine. The Arabs of the area were known as “Arabs,” and their own designation of the region was balad esh-Sham (the province of Damascus). While some Arab nationalist writers, and coffee-shop intellectuals in Cairo or Beirut, developed the concept of Arab nationalism in large part as a response to Zionism, the terms “Palestine” and “Palestinian” were used in their traditional sense as geographic designations, not as national identities.

So, here we see that early in the twentieth century, the term 'Palestinian' actually applied to the Jews.

In early 1947, in fact, when the UN was exploring the possibility of the partition of British Mandatory Palestine into two states, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs, various Arab political and academic spokespersons spoke out vociferously against such a division because, they argued, the region was really a part of southern Syria, no such people or nation as “Palestinians” had ever existed, and it would be an injustice to Syria to create a state ex nihilo at the expense of Syrian sovereign territory.

One major thing I want to point out about the above is the fact that Britain had already split their "Mandate for Palestine" in two by creating a separate Arab state by creating Trans-Jordan.

Now to the meat:

During the 19 years from Israel’s victory in 1948 to Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War, all that remained of the UN’s partitioned territory to the “Arabs” of British Mandatory Palestine were the West Bank, under illegal Jordanian sovereignty, and the Gaza Strip, under Egyptian rule. Never during these 19 years did any Arab leader anywhere in the world argue for the right of national self-determination for the Arabs of these territories. A “Palestinian” nation and “Palestinian” people had not yet been invented.

Article 24 of the PLO’s original founding document, the PLO Covenant, states: “This Organization (the PLO) does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.” For Arafat before the Six-Day War, Palestine was Israel. It was not the West Bank or the Gaza Strip -- because the West Bank and the Gaza Strip belonged to other Arab states, and the inhabitants of these areas were not numbered among the Palestinians whose “homeland” Arafat sought to “liberate.” The only "homeland" for the PLO in 1964 was the State of Israel. However, in response to the Six Day War, the PLO revised its Covenant on July 17, 1968, to remove the operative language of Article 24, thereby newly asserting a “Palestinian” claim of sovereignty to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

And this is the best part:

This ploy was revealed, perhaps inadvertently, to the West in a public interview with Zahir Muhse’in, a member of the PLO Executive Committee, in a March 31, 1977, interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaperTrouw:

• "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Link: Defining Palestine and the Palestinians - Discover the Networks

Put this into context. An American (as a citizen of the USA) didn't exist until the day the Founding Fathers declared independence. Before that the people were British. They invented it.

So what? Does that mean said people can be kicked out of their land, killed etc?

The Palestinians were Turkish citizens before the Treaty of Lausanne. After the Treaty of Lausanne the Palestinians were citizens of Palestine.

They became one of the "peoples" of the world with the standard list of rights.

 

[montelatici]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution.

I don't know what it is that you think my contribution says, but it sure doesn't confirm your twisted view of "facts". It corroborates my argument that you are conflating many things into one category in order to falsely prove your point. The table you cite and the reports made from the information on your table counts everything that is not Jewish privately owned land and as "Arab owned". That includes state land, foreign-owned land, land owned by all non-Jews, registered land, non-registered land, waqf land and vast tracts of desert dead lands. And you somehow want to conflate that into "privately-owned by Arab residents of Palestine".

And, again, even if you were correct, private ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty.

It's quite clear what the A/364 Resolution states. 85% of the Arab population continued to own the land, at the time of the issuance of the resolution, despite Jewish purchases, which amounted to 6% as recorded in the Survey. The 85% is owned by the Arab population, not the Churches, waqf (which no longer existed since the British conquest) the state, or other non-Jews. You are just unable to handle the truth because of the amount of propaganda you have been subjected to. The remaining 9% was not owned by either the Arabs or the Jews and may have included church/mosque property, foreign owners, the mandatory state of Palestine property, etc.

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land. "

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3

 

[Shusha]

]he 85% is owned by the Arab population...

The 85% is NOT land privately owned by Arab residents of Palestine. You are trying to tell me that 18,000 sq km of wilderness and desert was purchased or granted and thus privately owned by local Arabs? That state lands are just a tiny percentage of the total area of Palestine? Give me a break.

 

[Hollie]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution.

I don't know what it is that you think my contribution says, but it sure doesn't confirm your twisted view of "facts". It corroborates my argument that you are conflating many things into one category in order to falsely prove your point. The table you cite and the reports made from the information on your table counts everything that is not Jewish privately owned land and as "Arab owned". That includes state land, foreign-owned land, land owned by all non-Jews, registered land, non-registered land, waqf land and vast tracts of desert dead lands. And you somehow want to conflate that into "privately-owned by Arab residents of Palestine".

And, again, even if you were correct, private ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty.

It's quite clear what the A/364 Resolution states. 85% of the Arab population continued to own the land, at the time of the issuance of the resolution, despite Jewish purchases, which amounted to 6% as recorded in the Survey. The 85% is owned by the Arab population, not the Churches, waqf (which no longer existed since the British conquest) the state, or other non-Jews. You are just unable to handle the truth because of the amount of propaganda you have been subjected to. The remaining 9% was not owned by either the Arabs or the Jews and may have included church/mosque property, foreign owners, the mandatory state of Palestine property, etc.

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land. "

A/364 of 3 September 1947

It's quite clear that the article you cut and paste is refuted by the Ottoman land records.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

 

[Phoenall]

The land ownership data contained in UN Resolution A/364 and within the Survey of Palestine is based on the Torrens system which was implemented in 1927. There had been no "waqf" land since the British conquest of Palestine in 1917 when the land registries were re-established by the British. In 1927 the land registry system was finalized and the land ownership calculations in A/363 and the Survey of Palestine were based on the "Torrens" system.


"46. As is explained in paragraph 29 above, Government decided, in 1927, to introduce registration of title based on the Torrens system in use in Australia and elsewhere. The first pre-requisite to such a system is a cadastral survey linked to a series of triangulation points forming a national framework to which can be related the precise position of any given parcel of land. A second prerequisite is quasi-judicial investigation, carried out on the spot, to determine the category, ownership and existence of all rights in land."

Survey of Palestine, para. 46, page 241.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

Even before 1917, Jewish and Zionist institutions had purchased large tracts of land in Palestine from absentee landlords, who lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon. These landlords had previously leased their property to local farmers, but were happy to sell it for the right price, without giving a thought to their tenant farmers. Nevertheless, Palestinians view these sales as more legitimate than those that took place during the British occupation that began in 1917.

Agreed, the sales of large tracts to the Jews totaled about 6% of the land, as depicted below.

View attachment 102150

And it lumps in the Ottoman landlords with the arab's because the British knew no better back then

 

[Phoenall]

The provisions of the land transfer regulations of 1940, which gave effect to the 1939 White Paper policy, have severely restricted the Jewish efforts to acquire new land. "

Why did the Jews have to acquire land when the LoN gave them all of the land already?

To make their claim at a later date more valid, why did the arab muslims have to buy lands when as you claim the land was already theirs ?

 

[Phoenall]

163. The Arabs of Palestine consider themselves as having a "natural" right to that country, although they have not been in possession of it as a sovereign nation.

Israeli talking point.

A sovereign nation is not a prerequisite to the right to sovereignty.

So you are now calling monte's posts " Israeli talking points" It was not even heard about until I brought it up

 

[Phoenall]

I saw a six year old thread revived about the Jews being 'invented' and found an interesting link within it that I thought would be good material for an opposing thread.

The term “Palestinian,” ironically, was used during the British Mandate period (1922-1948) to identify the Jews of British Mandatory Palestine. The Arabs of the area were known as “Arabs,” and their own designation of the region was balad esh-Sham (the province of Damascus). While some Arab nationalist writers, and coffee-shop intellectuals in Cairo or Beirut, developed the concept of Arab nationalism in large part as a response to Zionism, the terms “Palestine” and “Palestinian” were used in their traditional sense as geographic designations, not as national identities.

So, here we see that early in the twentieth century, the term 'Palestinian' actually applied to the Jews.

In early 1947, in fact, when the UN was exploring the possibility of the partition of British Mandatory Palestine into two states, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs, various Arab political and academic spokespersons spoke out vociferously against such a division because, they argued, the region was really a part of southern Syria, no such people or nation as “Palestinians” had ever existed, and it would be an injustice to Syria to create a state ex nihilo at the expense of Syrian sovereign territory.

One major thing I want to point out about the above is the fact that Britain had already split their "Mandate for Palestine" in two by creating a separate Arab state by creating Trans-Jordan.

Now to the meat:

During the 19 years from Israel’s victory in 1948 to Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War, all that remained of the UN’s partitioned territory to the “Arabs” of British Mandatory Palestine were the West Bank, under illegal Jordanian sovereignty, and the Gaza Strip, under Egyptian rule. Never during these 19 years did any Arab leader anywhere in the world argue for the right of national self-determination for the Arabs of these territories. A “Palestinian” nation and “Palestinian” people had not yet been invented.

Article 24 of the PLO’s original founding document, the PLO Covenant, states: “This Organization (the PLO) does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.” For Arafat before the Six-Day War, Palestine was Israel. It was not the West Bank or the Gaza Strip -- because the West Bank and the Gaza Strip belonged to other Arab states, and the inhabitants of these areas were not numbered among the Palestinians whose “homeland” Arafat sought to “liberate.” The only "homeland" for the PLO in 1964 was the State of Israel. However, in response to the Six Day War, the PLO revised its Covenant on July 17, 1968, to remove the operative language of Article 24, thereby newly asserting a “Palestinian” claim of sovereignty to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

And this is the best part:

This ploy was revealed, perhaps inadvertently, to the West in a public interview with Zahir Muhse’in, a member of the PLO Executive Committee, in a March 31, 1977, interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaperTrouw:

• "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Link: Defining Palestine and the Palestinians - Discover the Networks

Put this into context. An American (as a citizen of the USA) didn't exist until the day the Founding Fathers declared independence. Before that the people were British. They invented it.

So what? Does that mean said people can be kicked out of their land, killed etc?

The Palestinians were Turkish citizens before the Treaty of Lausanne. After the Treaty of Lausanne the Palestinians were citizens of Palestine.

They became one of the "peoples" of the world with the standard list of rights.

Including the Jews. And they became citizens of the mandate of palestine as no nation or country of that name existed.

Link the part of the Treaty of Lausanne that names the palestinians as soveriegn owners of palestine.

What where those rights in 1923 ?

 

[Phoenall]

No it is not refuted at all. You are just making things up, as usual. The facts are depicted below from UN A/364 the pre-partition resolution, and in Shusha's contribution.

I don't know what it is that you think my contribution says, but it sure doesn't confirm your twisted view of "facts". It corroborates my argument that you are conflating many things into one category in order to falsely prove your point. The table you cite and the reports made from the information on your table counts everything that is not Jewish privately owned land and as "Arab owned". That includes state land, foreign-owned land, land owned by all non-Jews, registered land, non-registered land, waqf land and vast tracts of desert dead lands. And you somehow want to conflate that into "privately-owned by Arab residents of Palestine".

And, again, even if you were correct, private ownership has nothing to do with sovereignty.

It's quite clear what the A/364 Resolution states. 85% of the Arab population continued to own the land, at the time of the issuance of the resolution, despite Jewish purchases, which amounted to 6% as recorded in the Survey. The 85% is owned by the Arab population, not the Churches, waqf (which no longer existed since the British conquest) the state, or other non-Jews. You are just unable to handle the truth because of the amount of propaganda you have been subjected to. The remaining 9% was not owned by either the Arabs or the Jews and may have included church/mosque property, foreign owners, the mandatory state of Palestine property, etc.

"164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land. "

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3

No it is not clear, it is clear that the British lumped all non Jews into one group to confuse the issue

 

[surada]

I saw a six year old thread revived about the Jews being 'invented' and found an interesting link within it that I thought would be good material for an opposing thread.



So, here we see that early in the twentieth century, the term 'Palestinian' actually applied to the Jews.



One major thing I want to point out about the above is the fact that Britain had already split their "Mandate for Palestine" in two by creating a separate Arab state by creating Trans-Jordan.

Now to the meat:



And this is the best part:

Link: Defining Palestine and the Palestinians - Discover the Networks

Did you read the thread about the invention of the Jews?

Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[surada]

No it is not clear, it is clear that the British lumped all non Jews into one group to confuse the issue

Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine for 1800 years.

Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[MartyNYC]

Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine for 1800 years.

Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Jews are indigenous.

 

[MartyNYC]

Did you read the thread about the invention of the Jews?

Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The Jews verified by the Jewish Bible, Christian Bible, even the Koran, and archaeology?

 

[surada]

The Jews verified by the Jewish Bible, Christian Bible, even the Koran, and archaeology?

View attachment 735849

The Jews were a tiny minority for 1800 years. In fact, by the time of Jesus most Jews lived elsewhere.. In Damascus, Aleppo, Alexandria, Elephantine Island, Libya etc.

 

[MartyNYC]

The Jews were a tiny minority for 1800 years. In fact, by the time of Jesus most Jews lived elsewhere.. In Damascus, Aleppo, Alexandria, Elephantine Island, Libya etc.

Jews are the indigenous people.