Invasion of Iraq: Questions

[Bern80]

I think you give Bush way too much credit...hell, by some accounts, he was unaware that islam had different sects.

I believe we have an enemy: radical extreme islam. that enemy needs to convince the arab street that it has their best interests at heart. Saddam was a bad bad guy but, like it or not, he did a few things better than we have been able to do and we would be better off today if we had let him keep doing them: 1. he kept those same islamic extremists from gaining a foothold in Iraq (we have failed at this) 2. he kept sunnis and shiites from slaughtering each other (we have failed at this, and many middle eastern leaders feel that the carnage we have set in motion in Iraq may very well spread to Lebanon and the palestinian territories in a very short period of time....ooops) 3. He kept Iran in check vis a vis their aspirations for regional hegemony and dominance. (we have failed at this as well, and the mess with hezbollah in lebanon is proof of the growing influence of Iran in the region now that Saddam is gone). With Saddam gone, we have lost on several fronts and radical islam - and Iran - have been the benefactor of our fuckups.

All true, but it sounds like you would also agree that this was gonna come to head at some point. Saddam or no Saddam. Afterall he was still in power on 9/11 so it didn't keep Islamic extremism in total check. The questions are still then when and where do we want to fight this?

I would agree that I am probably giving to much credit to Bush as well. But planned or not the end result is similar. We are drawing large amounts of terrorists to one place, instead of them poking and prodding here and there across the globe.

 

[maineman]

All true, but it sounds like you would also agree that this was gonna come to head at some point. Saddam or no Saddam. Afterall he was still in power on 9/11 so it didn't keep Islamic extremism in total check. The questions are still then when and where do we want to fight this?

I would agree that I am probably giving to much credit to Bush as well. But planned or not the end result is similar. We are drawing large amounts of terrorists to one place, instead of them poking and prodding here and there across the globe.

Saddam should not have been expected to keep islamic extremists in check in Af-freakin-ghanistan. He was doing a great job within the confines of his own country, and as long as he stayed in power, he would continue to do so which meant one less place we needed to worry about...he would have kept a lid on sunni-shiite carnage which would have been a win-win for the whole region - and us...and he would have kept a lid on Iran.

And we are drawing a few thousand terrorists to one place.... - big deal -at the cost of tying down 150K of our own troops, 26K dead and wounded.... and a trillion dollars flushed down the shitter.

YOu can try to turn this sow's ear into a silk purse and claim that we are really much better off becuase we invaded Iraq, but I ain't buyin it. For my money, this was a foreign policy fuckup of epic proportions. Bush may very well have tipped us over the precipice and down the steep slope into hell. I sure as hell hope that the republicans are punished severely for this for years and years to come....if we live that long.

 

[Creek_George]

Open question to anyone with answers:

Why did the US (and Co.) invade Iraq?

Legal reasons (with sources)?

Open question to anyone with answers:

Why did the US (and Co.) invade Iraq?

Legal reasons (with sources)?

I'm sure there are alot of good threads to this post...I want to answer this question they way...how I'd feel at this moment if asked.

Remember at the first stages of this war..and when we could feel it comming?

There was different stages that played out with the media...as for the reasons why it took place..to why we are there...

When is the last time someone heard "Operation Iraqi Freedom"...

I'll skip alot of what I'd have to say..becuase I think you all have question like I do...and have seen this play out to the worst possible scenario..

Bush was behind this war..and those who'd support him blindly helped along.

I don't think it was for oil per say...but being they are the 5th largest exporter?...plays a big part.

This is so confusing...because the intelligence to begin was horrible..Even an Iraqi could tell you that a free for all would happen with a Sadamless Iraq...I'm still not sure how much faith you'd put into the Shiit population there as well to back..let alone a Sunni Government after the colapse...The population difference....AND not to mention Iran being a Shiit Country right next door to begin with..(government).

I question the expectations they had..as much as the claim to WMD's...None of it makes ANY sense....It was a gamble of that of the lottery....

I don't think any lib..or con president would of started this war..Prior,would have beat bush..or one yet to even be elected..Took one man to be in the right place..at the right time...Bush.

I can't say why...but this war was not in America's Interest....We are suppose to protect our interests...not create non-interests that bog us down...NOT to mention the money it's costing us...and for what?

Our media portrays that we are the ones taking the brunt money wise...Look at all the countries around Iraq that have taken in 1,000,000 fleeing...They got headaches as well because of this....I wonder how much money the every day Iraqi's have lost each year...Employment is horrible...what's been rebuilt...and the electricity aint that much better than just a few months into this war...

We took/are accepting 7000 Iraqis to come to the U.S.....Look at all the other countries woes with those fleeing Iraq...Look at those who spend all they have to get to a border...and be turned back.

It's horrible over there folks...not good at all..

The way things are going...our adventure into Iraq...only benifited the ones we just brought/are accepting here...At least 7000 Iraqis found there Iraqi Freedom...Mission Accomplished.

If any of you think George Bush was sitting at his desk..and a 4 star general came in to the room..and threw down a folder on his desk..and said.."Mr. President..I think you better have a look at this"...is a fool.

The answer to this question leads straight to Mr.Bush....

We can look at those who have profited...but the damge to the Republican Party almost weighs out anything I myself can even drum up to take a risk for.

I also think it's very obvious his father wouldn't of done this..nor any other president that would of been elected.

With a blunder such as this..it's extreme stupidity/foul intentions by just one man....or a deeper meaning to why we are there....Now we can't get out of there fast enough...and the place will be about as warm to us..as Iran is.

This is pure failure...

We just went there to remove Saddam?...It sure does look like that..don't it?...If it's not for that..is it oil?...Revenge?

I remember BIG Gains...for the Iraqi people on the news while this was being draged out...Shit was hiting the fan then...I bet it's a whole lot worse now...There economy is shot...Things can only get worse over there yet..before they get better....Once we do leave...all hell is gona break lose.

I think Bush took advantage of 911...and drumbed up there Tinker Toy Army..and the WMD's to convince the American people for whatever the reason was...

America's Interests Maybe?...Maybe it's a Middle East thing...It pisses me off...because to say we went there for WMD's was bullshit to begin with...

The reason would be very interesting to know...These people always can avoid the hard questions....they shouldn't be allowed to get away with that.

Good post question got me thinking..

 

[maineman]

instead of them poking and prodding here and there across the globe.

I would imagine that the citizens of Spain and Bali and Pakistan and India and Jordan and England might disagree with you on that point as well.

 

[Bern80]

Saddam should not have been expected to keep islamic extremists in check in Af-freakin-ghanistan. He was doing a great job within the confines of his own country, and as long as he stayed in power, he would continue to do so which meant one less place we needed to worry about...he would have kept a lid on sunni-shiite carnage which would have been a win-win for the whole region - and us...and he would have kept a lid on Iran.

And we are drawing a few thousand terrorists to one place.... - big deal -at the cost of tying down 150K of our own troops, 26K dead and wounded.... and a trillion dollars flushed down the shitter.

YOu can try to turn this sow's ear into a silk purse and claim that we are really much better off becuase we invaded Iraq, but I ain't buyin it. For my money, this was a foreign policy fuckup of epic proportions. Bush may very well have tipped us over the precipice and down the steep slope into hell. I sure as hell hope that the republicans are punished severely for this for years and years to come....if we live that long.

Why? because we dared poke the proverbial sleeping lion? Churchill's exact quote was. "Passivism reflects the hope that the crocodile will eat you last." You seriously don't think we would have had to deal with Saddam at some point?

Lets for the sake of argument say a different decision was made. One to not invade Iraq. 9/11 still happened, which I would hope you agree requires a military response. Iraq or no, that's still 'tied down' troops and possibly the same amount dead or wounded. We didn't go over the precipice, they did when they slammed a couple plans into a bunch of innocent people.

 

[maineman]

Why? because we dared poke the proverbial sleeping lion? Churchill's exact quote was. "Passivism reflects the hope that the crocodile will eat you last." You seriously don't think we would have had to deal with Saddam at some point?

Lets for the sake of argument say a different decision was made. One to not invade Iraq. 9/11 still happened, which I would hope you agree requires a military response. Iraq or no, that's still 'tied down' troops and possibly the same amount dead or wounded. We didn't go over the precipice, they did when they slammed a couple plans into a bunch of innocent people.

I was 100% behind Bush when he went after Osama in Afghanistan....and he lost me at Tora Bora when he outsourced the capture to afghan warlords....

but looking back - especially when you look back after having read the PNAC manifesto....Afghanistan was all a ruse anyhow. Iraq was what the neocons wanted and 9/11 just provided them the excuse to go there...as long as they could arouse both revenge and fear in the hearts of AMericans and purposely misdirect it at iraq.

 

[Bern80]

I was 100% behind Bush when he went after Osama in Afghanistan....and he lost me at Tora Bora when he outsourced the capture to afghan warlords....

but looking back - especially when you look back after having read the PNAC manifesto....Afghanistan was all a ruse anyhow. Iraq was what the neocons wanted and 9/11 just provided them the excuse to go there...as long as they could arouse both revenge and fear in the hearts of AMericans and purposely misdirect it at iraq.

bummer man, we were doing so well. Then you go and get all tin-foil-hat-club on me.

 

[maineman]

bummer man, we were doing so well. Then you go and get all tin-foil-hat-club on me.

you go and read the transcripts of speeches by Team Bush starting in August of '02 and tell me that their purpose was not to convince America that Saddam had a hand in 9/11...

and they were successful in that effort. On 9/13/01, we all knew who planned and executed 9/11.
By January of '03, after five months of Team Bush repeating the "big lie", well over half of Americans believed that Saddam had planned and executed 9/11.

and you want to chalk that up to coincidence????

 

[Bern80]

you go and read the transcripts of speeches by Team Bush starting in August of '02 and tell me that their purpose was not to convince America that Saddam had a hand in 9/11...

Agreed, and I disagree with that particular strategy. If Saddam really was an imminent threat then he shouldn't have needed to use that as a selling point.

and they were successful in that effort. On 9/13/01, we all knew who planned and executed 9/11.
By January of '03, after five months of Team Bush repeating the "big lie", well over half of Americans believed that Saddam had planned and executed 9/11.

You should head on over to the "For eots and the other 'Truthers'" thread for some interesting reading on what we suppossedly 'knew'. If you do get over there, no I am not one of the conspiracy theorists as far as that particular conspiracy is concerned.

I don't want to type it all again so here are some more thought on this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=519863#post519863

 

[maineman]

Agreed, and I disagree with that particular strategy. If Saddam really was an imminent threat then he shouldn't have needed to use that as a selling point.



You should head on over to the "For eots and the other 'Truthers'" thread for some interesting reading on what we suppossedly 'knew'. If you do get over there, no I am not one of the conspiracy theorists as far as that particular conspiracy is concerned.

I don't want to type it all again so here are some more thought on this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=519863#post519863

we have little to argue about

 

[Creek_George]

Well one thing..this war,invasion..occupation whatever one wants to call it..proved a point.

There was no WMD's...and about as powerful as the Iraqi Army was..was only capable of little feats like Kuwait..He was not even capable of another war with Iran....I don't see a big threat from Saddam ever to come if we left him in place...a ruthless leader yes.Take advantage of something..try to get away with it..yes...he was on everybodies shit list..

His legacy will be...that Iraq will be a Shiit lead country till the end of time with his departure...This will work out..once we let things play out there...We can only keep stalling this crap so long...

The bigest gamble was on the outcome they hoped for...I honestly feel they had some dam good advice..and ingnored it from many other people & sources.

I bet there was more data..and facts in our intelligence to prove something like this would of happened to begin with....The facts have been manipulated the whole time.....because some feel we as a people is what we read & watch everyday...

The question is..is there any good arguement for why we did go in?...When ya lay the facts..and truth down to this whole mess....We're talking about something that was started with..well...bullshit.

It's nice to know some are starting to say..this is a big mistake...Even being a lib..I'd be very careful..because the way this screwed up world works...It will be Bush's fault...and would be Gore if elected as the downfall for Iraq....

We are blessed we can look at all this from the outside.....and a picture is a 1000 words...and they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

People..no matter what party are questioning this....With the facts on the table...I can't see a good arguement for this.....2 years ago this would of been troop bashing making a post like this.......This war is bullshit..because there is nothing to win there now..Afghan all the way....We need facts..results...To compare this Iarq thing with anything....or past conflicts just don't ring a bell with me...and Bush did shove facts that were not up to par down our throats....Some made a reason..when there was not...

Even libs can be blamed with this...all of us....We got to start asking the hard questions to ourselves...That's how we live our lives..This thing with Iraq..is the big question.."Why are we there"??

So many dam interesting feed back here....I'm just having a beer..Ya all can throw me in the corner to let me have it...

Saddam also enjoyed..or could say took advantage of world suspecion...That was the greatest weapon he had....was unknowns & media..and those claiming for a political agenda...

He was not buddies with Iran...but the shadow we casted on him...And I say this..not that it kept Iran at bay..but made him feel as a threat...a possible foe still capable..Not to be underestimated.....He lived off that..because with out our intention...he was a nobody only capable of Kuwait style type blunders....

There is no doubt it was for oil he waged wars..and entered Kuwait...and for the Iran war...

I don't know...just rambling...I do see all the good points you all have...

To much thinking drives me whackoo.....

Peace..Have a good night all..