Interpretation of signs.

[PredFan]

In all due respect people, are you addressing the OP? It seems so far that I am the only one to do so?

I think my point was in regard to the OP. He stated that the statue of Jesus was untouched by the storm there, and I stated that the little church at ground zero was untouched on 9/11.

I had not heard of this church and i do not know if the people who lost so much on 9-11 actually look upon it for faith and inspiration if that is the case then in this case too I would wonder why God felt it necessary to put us all through that for so little gain.

 

[Foxfyre]

I am curious of what correlation you see in the thread title and the content of your OP. It seems disconnected to me but it is an interesting topic.

Why do bad things happen? Or more poignantly, why do bad things happen to good people? Why does God allow it? Why didn't Jesus stop it? Age old questions with absolutely no good answers.

But assuming God and Jesus are the same entity but in different personas, how do we know He/they didn't warn the people? We know that hurricanes and typhoons are beneficial, even necessary, to readjust climate imbalances. So the typhoon was not evil. It was just destructive to those who found themselves in its path.

What if the people had been fully tuned in to hear God's voice and had heeded the warning and had done what was necessary to get out of harm's way to to have constructed structures capable of withstanding the storm? The lesson is in the story of Noah. As the story goes he heard and obeyed God's voice warnng him of the coming destruction and he did what he was instructed to prepare for it.

Whether we take that story as an actual event or allegory to teach a concept, the lesson is a good one.

The correlation is that some people see the surviving statue as an inspiration. I have a difficult time understanding that kind of faith.

I'm not sure I can explain it adequately, but what I think they are saying is that it symbolizes hope, creation, recreation, salvation, a sense that no matter how bad it is, God can see us through it. It is the same phenomenon experienced by those dealing with the World Trade Center attack--in the midst of all the carnage and wreckage was that one symbolic cross--not intended to be a cross intially--but unmistably one just the same.

Of course the anti-religion police objected to us salvaging that inspirational "cross" because it was seen as a religious symbol.

I am most happy that the Phillipines doesn't seem to have people like that.

 

[Chuckt]

I guess it takes a very strong faith not to look at that statue and ask Why? Why Jesus, did you allow this to happen? Do you really exist? Are you simply as helpless as we are against the forces of nature?

God put man in a garden and everything God made was sin. The reason it happened is simple. Man had free will and brought sin into the world and gave his federal headship over to Satan. The world is not being operated as intended so that is why there are problems.

If God didn't allow it then man wouldn't really be free and God allows it so that people look to Him; They are looking to God and saying, "Why?" instead of ignoring him. I come from a family which won't even say, "Why" because they will sit down at the table and not give thanks to God.

 

[Foxfyre]

I guess it takes a very strong faith not to look at that statue and ask Why? Why Jesus, did you allow this to happen? Do you really exist? Are you simply as helpless as we are against the forces of nature?

God put man in a garden and everything God made was sin. The reason it happened is simple. Man had free will and brought sin into the world and gave his federal headship over to Satan. The world is not being operated as intended so that is why there are problems.

If God didn't allow it then man wouldn't really be free and God allows it so that people look to Him; They are looking to God and saying, "Why?" instead of ignoring him. I come from a family which won't even say, "Why" because they will sit down at the table and not give thanks to God.

I have long believed that the message of the Genesis story is that God's creation was perfect in every detail and that it has been humankind's sin, bit by bit, drip by drip, that has spoiled it over the millenia. I believe the Bible, and also I, defines sin as that which is harmful to ourselves and/or others. That is why sin is bad. It harms God's creation including us.

But even that does not explain the death and pain and suffering and loss experienced by the people in the Phillipines. It was not sin that caused the Typhoon. But perhaps it was the sin of unintended omission--the sin of not looking first to God for guidance and counsel and instruction--that put them in harm's way.

I don't know. That is ultimately for God to know and judge.

But it is an explanation. And I don't get any sense that God minds us asking the questions and struggling to hear an answer.

 

[Chuckt]

But even that does not explain the death and pain and suffering and loss experienced by the people in the Phillipines. It was not sin that caused the Typhoon. But perhaps it was the sin of unintended omission--the sin of not looking first to God for guidance and counsel and instruction--that put them in harm's way.

I don't know. That is ultimately for God to know and judge.

But it is an explanation. And I don't get any sense that God minds us asking the questions and struggling to hear an answer.

If we make it to heaven and think about leaving our estate like the angels that sinned (Jude 1:6), you can use it as a reminder that it wasn't that good down here and that we shouldn't desire an estate down here that is corruptible, defiled and fadeth away. In heaven we have an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled and it fadeth not away.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Some of God's courses are not electives and unfortunately we're here to learn.

 

[Foxfyre]

But even that does not explain the death and pain and suffering and loss experienced by the people in the Phillipines. It was not sin that caused the Typhoon. But perhaps it was the sin of unintended omission--the sin of not looking first to God for guidance and counsel and instruction--that put them in harm's way.

I don't know. That is ultimately for God to know and judge.

But it is an explanation. And I don't get any sense that God minds us asking the questions and struggling to hear an answer.

If we make it to heaven and think about leaving our estate like the angels that sinned (Jude 1:6), you can use it as a reminder that it wasn't that good down here and that we shouldn't desire an estate down here that is corruptible, defiled and fadeth away. In heaven we have an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled and it fadeth not away.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Some of God's courses are not electives and unfortunately we're here to learn.

You are the second person on this thread to suggest that our purpose here is to learn. I'll have to admit I hadn't focused in on that particular concept, but I will probably add that to my repertoire of things to consider and think about. I guess I always thought my purpose here on Earth was to understand what it is to hear God's word and obey it as well as understand and experience the wonder and power of His love for us. And in order for us to understand and know what love is--what goodness is--we have to be able to see and/or experience what it isn't. But I guess that is a learned truth isn't it?

Just another theory. It is one of the things that is on the list of questions that I want to take with me to get answered.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Why do bad things happen? Or more poignantly, why do bad things happen to good people? Why does God allow it? Why didn't Jesus stop it? Age old questions with absolutely no good answers.

The $64 question... Why do some seem favored, leading lives filled with blessings and good fortune, while others can't catch a lucky break, seemingly condemned at every turn, regardless of religious practice or life-style?

Maybe those truly favored by "God" (for lack of a better word) can be identified by how lucky they are, and human religious practices are a complete waste of time.



How about you... do you feel Lucky? (Anybody... everybody... Not just Foxfyre)

`​

 

[AVG-JOE]

There is a photograph going around taken frim somewhere in the Philippians, that shows near total destruction except for a giant statue if Jesus. The picture is said to be an inspiration to the survivors.

I guess it takes a very strong faith not to look at that statue and ask Why? Why Jesus, did you allow this to happen? Do you really exist? Are you simply as helpless as we are against the forces of nature?

I'm not an atheist at all, but my faith is not strong enough to not ask these questions when I see that statue.

Then strengthen your faith. Do it by exercising your faith. Faith is like a muscle. It gets stronger as we use it.

Go to the Lord and ask Him for undestanding and wisdom concerning this. He will answer. He gives wisdom to all men liberally when they ask in faith. He does not punish sincere questions. Nor does he rebuke us for it.

I cannot answer your questions. The Lord hasn't revealed to me why the huricane occured or why a statue still stood. Maybe it's to give hope and inspiration to the people. That even though we are sometimes called to pass through difficult trials, that Christ is always there to help and heal us.

History is certainly not going to answer the question of why.... History is filled with stories of prosperous sinners and miserable saints. History also delivers plenty of stories about the wicked getting their due and pennies from heaven for the faithful.

Maybe religious practice has nothing to do with connecting with "Creation". Maybe Lucky is an attitude.

Have you ever met a whining, self-righteous prick with a lot of luck? Me neither.

 

[AVG-JOE]

There is a photograph going around taken frim somewhere in the Philippians, that shows near total destruction except for a giant statue if Jesus. The picture is said to be an inspiration to the survivors.

I guess it takes a very strong faith not to look at that statue and ask Why? Why Jesus, did you allow this to happen? Do you really exist? Are you simply as helpless as we are against the forces of nature?

I'm not an atheist at all, but my faith is not strong enough to not ask these questions when I see that statue.

Then strengthen your faith. Do it by exercising your faith. Faith is like a muscle. It gets stronger as we use it.

Go to the Lord and ask Him for undestanding and wisdom concerning this. He will answer. He gives wisdom to all men liberally when they ask in faith. He does not punish sincere questions. Nor does he rebuke us for it.

I cannot answer your questions. The Lord hasn't revealed to me why the huricane occured or why a statue still stood. Maybe it's to give hope and inspiration to the people. That even though we are sometimes called to pass through difficult trials, that Christ is always there to help and heal us.

I would wonder why God would send such a destructive and deadly storm there and leave a statue standing, just to provide hope and inspiration.

I'll bet anyone a dollar that the standing statue is more a credit to the human sculptor and the investment made by the faithful in it's placement and foundation than it has to do with God. God never struck me as being particularly interested in idols, no matter the form.

 

[Foxfyre]

There is a photograph going around taken frim somewhere in the Philippians, that shows near total destruction except for a giant statue if Jesus. The picture is said to be an inspiration to the survivors.

I guess it takes a very strong faith not to look at that statue and ask Why? Why Jesus, did you allow this to happen? Do you really exist? Are you simply as helpless as we are against the forces of nature?

I'm not an atheist at all, but my faith is not strong enough to not ask these questions when I see that statue.

Then strengthen your faith. Do it by exercising your faith. Faith is like a muscle. It gets stronger as we use it.

Go to the Lord and ask Him for undestanding and wisdom concerning this. He will answer. He gives wisdom to all men liberally when they ask in faith. He does not punish sincere questions. Nor does he rebuke us for it.

I cannot answer your questions. The Lord hasn't revealed to me why the huricane occured or why a statue still stood. Maybe it's to give hope and inspiration to the people. That even though we are sometimes called to pass through difficult trials, that Christ is always there to help and heal us.

History is certainly not going to answer the question of why.... History is filled with stories of prosperous sinners and miserable saints. History also delivers plenty of stories about the wicked getting their due and pennies from heaven for the faithful.

Maybe religious practice has nothing to do with connecting with "Creation". Maybe Lucky is an attitude.

Have you ever met a whining, self-righteous prick with a lot of luck? Me neither.

That is another of those unaswerable questions: why is it that sometimes the wicked prosper while the saints suffer? It makes no sense if we look at benevolence as all that a good good God has to offer. But the Bible in many different ways assured us that there is no sin or shame in acquiring affluence, but from those who have much, much will be required. And also in many different ways assured us that this life is temporal, and to not gloat about our good fortune, because in the next it may be that the first will be last, and the least will be exalted to a place of honor.

For sure there is no guarantee of riches or comfort or peace or success for any of us, and we all have a great deal of leverage in what of those things we may acquire.

There was a line from the movie "Starman" that I think sums it up though. As he was waiting for the arrival of the spaceship to take him back home, the Starman said to the scientist: "You know what I think is beautiful about you? (Earth people.) You are at your best when things are worst."

I know that to be true about many Christians. Maybe it is true of most people.

But I do understand how the people of the Phillipines felt when they saw that the statue of Christ had survived the storm. It was symbolic to them, and a ray of hope, that God had not abandoned them. And they would get through this.

 

[theword]

But even that does not explain the death and pain and suffering and loss experienced by the people in the Phillipines. It was not sin that caused the Typhoon. But perhaps it was the sin of unintended omission--the sin of not looking first to God for guidance and counsel and instruction--that put them in harm's way.

I don't know. That is ultimately for God to know and judge.

But it is an explanation. And I don't get any sense that God minds us asking the questions and struggling to hear an answer.

If we make it to heaven and think about leaving our estate like the angels that sinned (Jude 1:6), you can use it as a reminder that it wasn't that good down here and that we shouldn't desire an estate down here that is corruptible, defiled and fadeth away. In heaven we have an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled and it fadeth not away.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Some of God's courses are not electives and unfortunately we're here to learn.

Fools don't understand that we're created in Heaven as energy spoken into existence by the invisible Word of God, which is the voice of God. The visible world that we experience called this earth and our flesh comes from processed energy as illusions. This means that the visible world isn't real but the invisible energy that are stored thoughts of God are our true existence in the mind of God.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Then strengthen your faith. Do it by exercising your faith. Faith is like a muscle. It gets stronger as we use it.

Go to the Lord and ask Him for undestanding and wisdom concerning this. He will answer. He gives wisdom to all men liberally when they ask in faith. He does not punish sincere questions. Nor does he rebuke us for it.

I cannot answer your questions. The Lord hasn't revealed to me why the huricane occured or why a statue still stood. Maybe it's to give hope and inspiration to the people. That even though we are sometimes called to pass through difficult trials, that Christ is always there to help and heal us.

History is certainly not going to answer the question of why.... History is filled with stories of prosperous sinners and miserable saints. History also delivers plenty of stories about the wicked getting their due and pennies from heaven for the faithful.

Maybe religious practice has nothing to do with connecting with "Creation". Maybe Lucky is an attitude.

Have you ever met a whining, self-righteous prick with a lot of luck? Me neither.

That is another of those unaswerable questions: why is it that sometimes the wicked prosper while the saints suffer? It makes no sense if we look at benevolence as all that a good good God has to offer. But the Bible in many different ways assured us that there is no sin or shame in acquiring affluence, but from those who have much, much will be required. And also in many different ways assured us that this life is temporal, and to not gloat about our good fortune, because in the next it may be that the first will be last, and the least will be exalted to a place of honor.

For sure there is no guarantee of riches or comfort or peace or success for any of us, and we all have a great deal of leverage in what of those things we may acquire.

There was a line from the movie "Starman" that I think sums it up though. As he was waiting for the arrival of the spaceship to take him back home, the Starman said to the scientist: "You know what I think is beautiful about you? (Earth people.) You are at your best when things are worst."

I know that to be true about many Christians. Maybe it is true of most people.

But I do understand how the people of the Phillipines felt when they saw that the statue of Christ had survived the storm. It was symbolic to them, and a ray of hope, that God had not abandoned them. And they would get through this.

​

Therein lay the value to focused faith. ANY faith.
Faith in self, faith in family, faith in community, faith in ideas.
Where would we be without a little shared faith in The US Constitution?

 

[S.J.]

Faith in anything other than God is a waste of faith.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Why?

And... How ******* arrogant!!!

Have you no faith in yourself? Your community?

Surely you have faith in the elevator cables or you wouldn't ride.

Have you no faith that the other drivers will follow the rules of the road and stay on their own side?

Have you no faith in the ability of government to maintain some semblance of safety in the food and water supplies, or do you have an independent lab on retainer?

Faith is NOT exclusive to religion.

 

[AVG-JOE]

And pardon the **** out of me if I have a little faith in my fellow humans.

 

[AVG-JOE]

To faith in The US Marine Corps!!

​

 

[Foxfyre]

Faith is hope and trust in things both seen and unseen. And no, I don't think it is limited to things we think of as religious, because if all the world and all that is in it are creations of God, then it logically follows that there is a built in trust factor or faith in things we have learned to be true including things that are not traditionally thought of to be 'religious'. So yes, especially with benefit of experience, you can have faith that the employee you trust with a critical task will come through for you, or that your spouse will be loyal, or that your children will be responsible and not do something stupid.

Tevia, in "Fiddler on the Roof" went about his daily chores while having an on going conversation with God. Everything he was and everything he did he saw as within that relationship. I think many people of faith are like that. Their religion is not just reading the Bible or hanging a picture of Hook's head of Jesus in their foyer, or going to church and then seeing everything else as 'secular'. Everything they do from wake up to their final prayers at night is 'religious' in that God is in it.

Faith in God's ultimate goodness and promises allows those people in the Phillipines to see the symbol of the risen Christ, a survivor of the storm, as a reminder that God is big enough and strong enough to get them through the tragic disaster they are experiencing. And that ultimately they will be okay.

A God who is confined to the Bible or religious symbols or the weekly church service wouldn't be much of a God would he? And there wouldn't be much there to have faith in.

 

[S.J.]

Why?

And... How ******* arrogant!!!

Have you no faith in yourself? Your community?

Surely you have faith in the elevator cables or you wouldn't ride.

Have you no faith that the other drivers will follow the rules of the road and stay on their own side?

Have you no faith in the ability of government to maintain some semblance of safety in the food and water supplies, or do you have an independent lab on retainer?

Faith is NOT exclusive to religion.

I would explain it to you if I thought you were interested in a serious discussion, rather than attacking me for not having the same views as you.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Then why don't you explain it to the rest of these fine folks, S.J.?

I'll promise that this is my last post on that particular point. I've more than made my thesis.

 

[S.J.]

Then why don't you explain it to the rest of these fine folks, [MENTION=41356]S.J.[/MENTION]?

I'll promise that this is my last post on that particular point. I've more than made my thesis.

You've also made yet another ignore list.