Institutionalized racism... or are blacks just less employable?

[code1211]

If you paid real attention, mani, you would know that I often blame both sides. I certainly view all politicians with equal contempt.... However, on this particular subject.... it is the Dems that have failed the minorities. They set themselves up as the 'party of minorities' and treat them like children.

they treat them like children and attack them if they dare support another party.

I never ceases to amaze me that the Minorities continue to flock to a Party that so openly uses them.

It fucking amazes me how Republicans want African Americans to flock to a political who's against affirmative action, supports bills and laws that disprortionately puts minorities and the poor at a disadvantage, a party thats against labor unions and a party thats against spending money on social programs to help the poor while at the same fucking time supporting any and all legislation that favors the rich like tax cuts for the richest of the rich that don't do shit to help the economy.

Do you not see that you are seeing all things in terms of the dividions in race, class and favoritism?

Laws that favor nobody are considered by you to be unfair because they do not favor you.

Why is it more fair to not tax all than it is to tax all?

Why is it more fair to reward the poor and penalize the rich simply because the rich have money?

Why are social programs needed when they have been provided for two generations now and the result is that they are needed more than ever? One might expect that one of the outcomes would be that the need for the programs would diminish if they worked.

What bills and laws have put minorities and the poor at a disadvantage? Is not helping someone who refuses help an attack?

I don't know that the Republicans have seriously courted the Black Vote. It would be a waste of time and money to do so. What i find confusing is that the Black Vote is solidly Democrat in spite of the FACT that 80 years of absolute devotion to the Democrats has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating.

Do you wonder why, after all of the help recieved from the altruism of the Democrat Party, "there is still so much left to do"? An impartial obvserver might conclude that the tactics to date have been ill planned, poorly executed or both.

Why is there such a Racial allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

 

[taichiliberal]

they treat them like children and attack them if they dare support another party.

I never ceases to amaze me that the Minorities continue to flock to a Party that so openly uses them.

It fucking amazes me how Republicans want African Americans to flock to a political who's against affirmative action, supports bills and laws that disprortionately puts minorities and the poor at a disadvantage, a party thats against labor unions and a party thats against spending money on social programs to help the poor while at the same fucking time supporting any and all legislation that favors the rich like tax cuts for the richest of the rich that don't do shit to help the economy.

Do you not see that you are seeing all things in terms of the dividions in race, class and favoritism?

Laws that favor nobody are considered by you to be unfair because they do not favor you.

Why is it more fair to not tax all than it is to tax all?

Why is it more fair to reward the poor and penalize the rich simply because the rich have money?

Why are social programs needed when they have been provided for two generations now and the result is that they are needed more than ever? One might expect that one of the outcomes would be that the need for the programs would diminish if they worked.

What bills and laws have put minorities and the poor at a disadvantage? Is not helping someone who refuses help an attack?

I don't know that the Republicans have seriously courted the Black Vote. It would be a waste of time and money to do so. What i find confusing is that the Black Vote is solidly Democrat in spite of the FACT that 80 years of absolute devotion to the Democrats has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating.

Do you wonder why, after all of the help recieved from the altruism of the Democrat Party, "there is still so much left to do"? An impartial obvserver might conclude that the tactics to date have been ill planned, poorly executed or both.

Why is there such a Racial allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

Please enlighten us all as to how you came to the fantastic conclusion that the Democratic Party alone has in just 80 years ... "has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating".

 

[California Girl]

Is there anything you can't blame the democrats for CG?

She blames Democrats and liberals for everything while simultaneously ignoring and or failing to point out the good that Republicans have done. She can talk high and mighty about what Republicans say they're going to do but the rerality is that Republicans are doing nothing for blacks.

Stop bullshitting about me, Charlie. I blame both sides, particularly when it comes to the treatment and education of blacks. Both sides have acted shamefully towards minorities.

 

[California Girl]

Neither. We just don't encourage educational value in certain demographics. For this, I tend to blame the Democrats. They have made 'minorities' a 'pet project' and have failed them badly. They do it for the votes, they don't actually help minorities in any meaningful way. Instead of pushing programs that encourage education and positive outcomes, they encourage 'entitlement' programs.

And what are Republicans doing for racial minorities CG? Are you going to sit up here and regurgitate that same old Republican BS about how their Party was the Party that freed slaves and the Party of Abraham Lincoln or will you be just be honest and admit Republicans have done nothing really for black people to give them their vote except to blame Democrats for all the all the wrong? As bad as you blame Dems for misleading blacks when and where are Republicans leading blacks down the right path? You claim to blame both sides but you're not different than any partisan hack on this forum.

Last time we had a similar discussion, if you remember, you actually agreed with what I said. Try and be consistent, Charlie.... I am.

I think, and have already stated (and I really should not have to keep repeating myself), that both Dems and Repubs have failed blacks. I have been consistent in that statement. I see nothing to be gained from going over and over who was responsible for what. I am far more interested in how the fuck we solve the problems rather than listening to a bunch of whiny assed Dems and their equally whiny assed counterparts bitch about who did what.

That's why I don't bother with this thread.... because I'm not interested in blame. If anyone wants to talk about how we solve it, great. Until then, no.... you all can carry on bitching and whining and scoring stupid partisan points over nothing.

 

[MikeK]

Is there anything you can't blame the democrats for CG?

Iraq, the economy and an entrenched corporatocracy.

 

[MikeK]

Neither. We just don't encourage educational value in certain demographics. For this, I tend to blame the Democrats. They have made 'minorities' a 'pet project' and have failed them badly. They do it for the votes, they don't actually help minorities in any meaningful way. Instead of pushing programs that encourage education and positive outcomes, they encourage 'entitlement' programs.

On this we agree.

 

[code1211]

It fucking amazes me how Republicans want African Americans to flock to a political who's against affirmative action, supports bills and laws that disprortionately puts minorities and the poor at a disadvantage, a party thats against labor unions and a party thats against spending money on social programs to help the poor while at the same fucking time supporting any and all legislation that favors the rich like tax cuts for the richest of the rich that don't do shit to help the economy.

Do you not see that you are seeing all things in terms of the dividions in race, class and favoritism?

Laws that favor nobody are considered by you to be unfair because they do not favor you.

Why is it more fair to not tax all than it is to tax all?

Why is it more fair to reward the poor and penalize the rich simply because the rich have money?

Why are social programs needed when they have been provided for two generations now and the result is that they are needed more than ever? One might expect that one of the outcomes would be that the need for the programs would diminish if they worked.

What bills and laws have put minorities and the poor at a disadvantage? Is not helping someone who refuses help an attack?

I don't know that the Republicans have seriously courted the Black Vote. It would be a waste of time and money to do so. What i find confusing is that the Black Vote is solidly Democrat in spite of the FACT that 80 years of absolute devotion to the Democrats has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating.

Do you wonder why, after all of the help recieved from the altruism of the Democrat Party, "there is still so much left to do"? An impartial obvserver might conclude that the tactics to date have been ill planned, poorly executed or both.

Why is there such a Racial allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

Please enlighten us all as to how you came to the fantastic conclusion that the Democratic Party alone has in just 80 years ... "has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating".

Either you didn't understand what I wrote or you intentionally have mistated it. The "Black Vote" is solidly Democrat. The numbers show it to be about 90% routinely. The Democrat Party has been in political control of this country for a majority of the time since 1932.

Other demographic voting segments in this country are divided much more evenly whether they be men, women, young, old, asian, rural, urban and so on. The "plight" of the minority is what you are railing about.

If the Democrats are a party that has done so much for the Black population, why is there so much left to do?

If the Democrats have not done enough, why do the Blacks continue to support them almost exclusively?

The Democrats don't even take the Blacks to dinner before they finish the date anymore. They just do the lying and get right on to the fornication. Why spend the cash on a "sure thing"?

If there is individual thought going on here, it's not showing up in the voting results. If there is a desire to assimilate as individulas into the society, why the uniquely "Black" wardrobes, language and culture within a culture. I don't think this is bad, good or neutral. It just is. Without a doubt, this is a very colorful thread in the fabric of our country represented across our culture in language, fashion, music, entertainment and sports.

The society as a whole has accepted the American Black culture into its mainstream and has embraced the diversity it brings. The Black Culture, on the other hand, seems to strive constantly to move out of the mainstream and maintain a stubborn uniqueness in favor of a willing compliance.

If the goal is to be unique and outside the mainstream as a race within this country, that's fine. The trouble is, being outside the mainstream means that you're outside the mainstream. Again, not good, bad or nuetral.

Every Black person is unique, just like every other black person. It seems that as a race, they strive to be separated from the rest of the culture and in the arena of politics bemoan the fact that they are separated from the rest of the culture.

The Republicans are not particularly the friend of the Blacks. However, the Democrats are not either. Why is the Democrat Party the one that gets the support of the Blacks when the result of this allegiance is so miserably lacking in any tangible benefits to the group? Why does this group blindly follow the Dems and vote for them when the Democrat programs have, after so much effort, loyalty and time, left so much to do?

If there was individual analysis of the benefit of following the Dems, there would be a much more even divide in the vote within this group. Since the results of the allegiance to the Dems have been dismal by the standards you are setting, there must be a group-think that overwhelms the individual thinking for no other reason than it is the "Black" thing to do.

It's a Black thing. I wouldn't understand.

So, again, why is there such an allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

 

[Flaylo]

Do you not see that you are seeing all things in terms of the dividions in race, class and favoritism?

Laws that favor nobody are considered by you to be unfair because they do not favor you.

Why is it more fair to not tax all than it is to tax all?

Why is it more fair to reward the poor and penalize the rich simply because the rich have money?

Why are social programs needed when they have been provided for two generations now and the result is that they are needed more than ever? One might expect that one of the outcomes would be that the need for the programs would diminish if they worked.

What bills and laws have put minorities and the poor at a disadvantage? Is not helping someone who refuses help an attack?

I don't know that the Republicans have seriously courted the Black Vote. It would be a waste of time and money to do so. What i find confusing is that the Black Vote is solidly Democrat in spite of the FACT that 80 years of absolute devotion to the Democrats has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating.

Do you wonder why, after all of the help recieved from the altruism of the Democrat Party, "there is still so much left to do"? An impartial obvserver might conclude that the tactics to date have been ill planned, poorly executed or both.

Why is there such a Racial allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

Please enlighten us all as to how you came to the fantastic conclusion that the Democratic Party alone has in just 80 years ... "has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating".

Either you didn't understand what I wrote or you intentionally have mistated it. The "Black Vote" is solidly Democrat. The numbers show it to be about 90% routinely. The Democrat Party has been in political control of this country for a majority of the time since 1932.

Other demographic voting segments in this country are divided much more evenly whether they be men, women, young, old, asian, rural, urban and so on. The "plight" of the minority is what you are railing about.

If the Democrats are a party that has done so much for the Black population, why is there so much left to do?

If the Democrats have not done enough, why do the Blacks continue to support them almost exclusively?

The Democrats don't even take the Blacks to dinner before they finish the date anymore. They just do the lying and get right on to the fornication. Why spend the cash on a "sure thing"?

If there is individual thought going on here, it's not showing up in the voting results. If there is a desire to assimilate as individulas into the society, why the uniquely "Black" wardrobes, language and culture within a culture. I don't think this is bad, good or neutral. It just is. Without a doubt, this is a very colorful thread in the fabric of our country represented across our culture in language, fashion, music, entertainment and sports.

The society as a whole has accepted the American Black culture into its mainstream and has embraced the diversity it brings. The Black Culture, on the other hand, seems to strive constantly to move out of the mainstream and maintain a stubborn uniqueness in favor of a willing compliance.

If the goal is to be unique and outside the mainstream as a race within this country, that's fine. The trouble is, being outside the mainstream means that you're outside the mainstream. Again, not good, bad or nuetral.

Every Black person is unique, just like every other black person. It seems that as a race, they strive to be separated from the rest of the culture and in the arena of politics bemoan the fact that they are separated from the rest of the culture.

The Republicans are not particularly the friend of the Blacks. However, the Democrats are not either. Why is the Democrat Party the one that gets the support of the Blacks when the result of this allegiance is so miserably lacking in any tangible benefits to the group? Why does this group blindly follow the Dems and vote for them when the Democrat programs have, after so much effort, loyalty and time, left so much to do?

If there was individual analysis of the benefit of following the Dems, there would be a much more even divide in the vote within this group. Since the results of the allegiance to the Dems have been dismal by the standards you are setting, there must be a group-think that overwhelms the individual thinking for no other reason than it is the "Black" thing to do.

It's a Black thing. I wouldn't understand.

So, again, why is there such an allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

Democrats support and sponsor programs for the poor and minorities, the ones that Republicans blame for all the country's problems when they're not blaming Obama. Republicans support programs for neither and pobby mostly for tax cuts for the rich that never help the poor. There you have it.

 

[editec]

Institutionalized racism... or are blacks just less employable?

You present us with false dichotomy and demand that we choose but one?

Yes, there can be insitutional racism, and yes, Blacks can be less employable, too.

 

[Flagwavrusa]

Taichiliberal, Thank you for your interest in this topic. I do recall after it was published that some critics of the book, such as the ones you cited, voiced their opinion against it, but its hardly fair to say the book was 'discredited". Regardless, You dont need to read the bell curve to verify its contention that blacks are less intelligent than whites, because a hundred years of IQ testing incontrovertibly supports this fact. Just listen to the American Psychological Association, the world's premier organization of psychologists comprised of 152000 scientists and educators. "A report issued by the APA in 1996 concluded that the racial IQ gap between African American and White Americans has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began, and concluded that the gap is not the result of "any obvious biases in the construction or administration of tests, nor does it simply reflect differences in socioeconomic status"." (American Psychologist 51: 77–101. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.51.2.77) As the Bell Curve asserted, these difference are at least in part, if not largely, due to genetic factors, considering that differences in intelligence among people is largely the result of genetic inheritance. The best proof of this is a review of 111 scientific studies of monozygotic twins which reveal that the higher the percentage of genes individuals have in common, then the more similar their iq, regardless of the environment they are raised in. That is, monozygotic twins have very similar iqs even when raised in very different environments, wheres mere cousins are not that much more likely than two random individuals to possess a similar iq level. American Psychologist 51(2): 77–101. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.51.2.77. The facts about black iq speak for themselves.

 

[taichiliberal]

Do you not see that you are seeing all things in terms of the dividions in race, class and favoritism?

Laws that favor nobody are considered by you to be unfair because they do not favor you.

Why is it more fair to not tax all than it is to tax all?

Why is it more fair to reward the poor and penalize the rich simply because the rich have money?

Why are social programs needed when they have been provided for two generations now and the result is that they are needed more than ever? One might expect that one of the outcomes would be that the need for the programs would diminish if they worked.

What bills and laws have put minorities and the poor at a disadvantage? Is not helping someone who refuses help an attack?

I don't know that the Republicans have seriously courted the Black Vote. It would be a waste of time and money to do so. What i find confusing is that the Black Vote is solidly Democrat in spite of the FACT that 80 years of absolute devotion to the Democrats has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating.

Do you wonder why, after all of the help recieved from the altruism of the Democrat Party, "there is still so much left to do"? An impartial obvserver might conclude that the tactics to date have been ill planned, poorly executed or both.

Why is there such a Racial allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

Please enlighten us all as to how you came to the fantastic conclusion that the Democratic Party alone has in just 80 years ... "has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating".

Either you didn't understand what I wrote or you intentionally have mistated it. The "Black Vote" is solidly Democrat. The numbers show it to be about 90% routinely. The Democrat Party has been in political control of this country for a majority of the time since 1932.

I quoted you precisely, genius. No misinterpretation.....I asked for how you came to this conclusion. Let's see what you've got beyond stating generalities and some painfully obvious and moot points.

Other demographic voting segments in this country are divided much more evenly whether they be men, women, young, old, asian, rural, urban and so on. The "plight" of the minority is what you are railing about.

No genius, I'm asking YOU to explain how you came to the conclusion that the Democratic Party alone has in just 80 years ... "has produced a race devoid of individualistic initiative, a race that takes pride in not achieving and not assimilating". So far, you're just stalling.

If the Democrats are a party that has done so much for the Black population, why is there so much left to do?

For the same reasons I gave in the previous posts.....reasons that YOU have steadfastly avoided.

If the Democrats have not done enough, why do the Blacks continue to support them almost exclusively?

Because ever since Nixon's infamous "Southern Strategy", black folk went with the party that marginalized the "Dixiecrats". The Dems are not perfect, but in my lifetime they sure as hell have done more than the GOP.

The Democrats don't even take the Blacks to dinner before they finish the date anymore. They just do the lying and get right on to the fornication. Why spend the cash on a "sure thing"?

Hey genius, I asked you to give me some FACTS regarding your fantastic statement. So far all you've given me is some bigoted rhetoric with no specifics. Seems you're just blowing smoke.

If there is individual thought going on here, it's not showing up in the voting results. If there is a desire to assimilate as individulas into the society, why the uniquely "Black" wardrobes, language and culture within a culture. I don't think this is bad, good or neutral. It just is. Without a doubt, this is a very colorful thread in the fabric of our country represented across our culture in language, fashion, music, entertainment and sports.

So essentially you're bitching on the one hand that you don't like Black culture asserting itself so that you notice (out of sight, out of mind), then you try to cop out and say it's no big deal....BUT you point out that it's a sign of non-assimilation? Seems you're contradicting yourself...get it together, man!

Assimiliation? I got news for ya, bunky....black folk were in the USA a century or two BEFORE IT BECAME A COUNTRY. That means you had GENERATIONS of black people born and raised here, speaking English and living by the customs of the specific region of the country....many BEFORE the "great immigration" of the 1890's. Now African Americans are no more giving up their cultural heritage than Anglo-Saxon, German, French, Polish, Scottish, Irish, Jewish, Dutch, etc. Americans. So it's tough toenails if you don't like it....NO ONE ASKED YOU TO. But if you can't tell the difference between a black American or a black man from the African continent or the Middle East, that's your problem. I suggest you take a trip to the UN and ask a Kenyan or Libyian or Senegalese to recognize black Americans for you.

The society as a whole has accepted the American Black culture into its mainstream and has embraced the diversity it brings. The Black Culture, on the other hand, seems to strive constantly to move out of the mainstream and maintain a stubborn uniqueness in favor of a willing compliance.

Really? Again, it's seems YOUR OPINON is trying to pass off as fact! Bottom line: as I pointed out above, your absurd prejudiced viewpoint just doesn't make logical sense. It's not about what YOU want black folk to act like, genius....and Too Fucking Bad if you can't have your way.

If the goal is to be unique and outside the mainstream as a race within this country, that's fine. The trouble is, being outside the mainstream means that you're outside the mainstream. Again, not good, bad or nuetral.

Define "mainstream". If it means "white", then black people will never assimilate by your standard. Hell, "mainstream" was REDEFINED in 1968 by the cultural revolution (Hippies, etc.), and that was led by white folk. So essentially, you're just bitching that black people are not following some preconceived notion of what YOU want them to. TFB, grow up.

Every Black person is unique, just like every other black person. It seems that as a race, they strive to be separated from the rest of the culture and in the arena of politics bemoan the fact that they are separated from the rest of the culture.

You're repeating yourself, genius...and I just deconstructed that bullshit of yours above.
The Republicans are not particularly the friend of the Blacks. However, the Democrats are not either. Why is the Democrat Party the one that gets the support of the Blacks when the result of this allegiance is so miserably lacking in any tangible benefits to the group? Why does this group blindly follow the Dems and vote for them when the Democrat programs have, after so much effort, loyalty and time, left so much to do?

See above repsonses

If there was individual analysis of the benefit of following the Dems, there would be a much more even divide in the vote within this group. Since the results of the allegiance to the Dems have been dismal by the standards you are setting, there must be a group-think that overwhelms the individual thinking for no other reason than it is the "Black" thing to do.

You're repeating yourself....see above responses.

It's a Black thing. I wouldn't understand.

So, again, why is there such an allegiance to the Democrat Party by Blacks?

Again, you haven't explained your absurd statement. Instead, you give a lot of clap trap opinion of how YOU perceive black people should act. My responses desconstruct your nonsense as so much blathering to try and justify/disguise your general dislike for black people. Fine, no one asked you to like us.....but no one is going to sit back and let your bigoted BS go unchallenged either.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm trying to think of a reason why the unemployment "pain" SHOULD be "spread evenly", and I'm coming up with a blank. Thomas Sowell has often pointed out that different demographics are virtually NEVER represented in any statistic in the same proportion that they are in the general population. And it's virtually always due to some cause OTHER than misbehavior on the part of others.

 

[code1211]

Again, you haven't explained your absurd statement. Instead, you give a lot of clap trap opinion of how YOU perceive black people should act. My responses desconstruct your nonsense as so much blathering to try and justify/disguise your general dislike for black people. Fine, no one asked you to like us.....but no one is going to sit back and let your bigoted BS go unchallenged either.

For a re-cap of what came before, see post number 71.

You seem to be reading, but not understanding. I'll try to be less wordy.

I am wondering why the Black vote is about 90% Democrat since the Dems haven't solved the problem of the Black economic inequality in the 80 or so years of this devotion of the Black Vote to the Dems.

Tha American Black culture is unique in the world to the USA. In no place in the post did I say, nor do I believe that the members of the Black population are in any way not deserving of equality economically, socially or politically. It is you, in a very venomous and hatefully racially inspired response who is displaying racism.

I happen to like people. This includes Black people. I find all people interesting, funny, intelligent, stupid, curious, talented, dull or abrasive based on how they act when i'm around them. This includes Black people.

Obviously, as a group, Blacks are underachieving. Blacks have said this.

Obviously, as a group, Blacks vote for Democrats. Blacks have said this.

Obviously, the programs of the Democrats that the Blacks vote for as a group are not correcting the problem.

Obviously, as a group, Blacks continue to underachieve and continue to vote for the programs of the Democrats that do not correct and seem to intentionally not address the underachieving.

My question is, "Why do the Blacks, as a group, continue to vote for the Democrats, usually in the range of 90%, who promote programs that don't seem to help?"

Before you re-present your lie, I did not say that the Democrats are responsible for the plight of the Blacks. I am wondering why the Blacks show such allegiance in spite of the lack of results provided by the Democrats.

Please try to wash away your racism and respond to what I have written, not what you have echoing around in your head.

 

[code1211]

Taichiliberal, Thank you for your interest in this topic. I do recall after it was published that some critics of the book, such as the ones you cited, voiced their opinion against it, but its hardly fair to say the book was 'discredited". Regardless, You dont need to read the bell curve to verify its contention that blacks are less intelligent than whites, because a hundred years of IQ testing incontrovertibly supports this fact. Just listen to the American Psychological Association, the world's premier organization of psychologists comprised of 152000 scientists and educators. "A report issued by the APA in 1996 concluded that the racial IQ gap between African American and White Americans has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began, and concluded that the gap is not the result of "any obvious biases in the construction or administration of tests, nor does it simply reflect differences in socioeconomic status"." (American Psychologist 51: 77–101. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.51.2.77) As the Bell Curve asserted, these difference are at least in part, if not largely, due to genetic factors, considering that differences in intelligence among people is largely the result of genetic inheritance. The best proof of this is a review of 111 scientific studies of monozygotic twins which reveal that the higher the percentage of genes individuals have in common, then the more similar their iq, regardless of the environment they are raised in. That is, monozygotic twins have very similar iqs even when raised in very different environments, wheres mere cousins are not that much more likely than two random individuals to possess a similar iq level. American Psychologist 51(2): 77–101. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.51.2.77. The facts about black iq speak for themselves.

I have not read the Bell Curve.

The testing sounds impressive. Does further testing reveal anything about "Blacks" who are raised in settings that are stereotypically middle to high class with language and educational basics equal to that of their peers of various racial backgrounds? Were there any prequalifiers that separted the groups not by race, but rather by pre-test academic achievement?

That is, comparing A+ Blacks to A+ Whites, A+ Asians and so on?

In any person of any racial background, impeded ability to read or the complete lack of the ability to read is going to severely hinder the ability to start, complete or even particiapte in an IQ test. Any kid who has missed the basics of reading in the second grade is screwed for the remainder of K-12 experience.

I would think that I would do much better on an IQ test presented to me in English than I would do on one presented to me in Latin. Maybe a better parallel is Middle English. Kind of the same and it seems almost like I might be able to read it, but really not at all. Even Shakespearean English would present problems.

A Special Ed teacher I was speaking to also taught remedial reading to Junior High kids who just never really "Got It" in Grade School. She said that the kids were amazing in the way they could absorb what was said and were aces on the parts of the lessons that were presented verbally, but zeroes on the written parts until they could read. Obviously.

Those that had no interest just dropped out.

 

[code1211]

<snip>

Hey genius, I asked you to give me some FACTS regarding your fantastic statement. So far all you've given me is some bigoted rhetoric with no specifics. Seems you're just blowing smoke.

If there is individual thought going on here, it's not showing up in the voting results. If there is a desire to assimilate as individulas into the society, why the uniquely "Black" wardrobes, language and culture within a culture. I don't think this is bad, good or neutral. It just is. Without a doubt, this is a very colorful thread in the fabric of our country represented across our culture in language, fashion, music, entertainment and sports.

So essentially you're bitching on the one hand that you don't like Black culture asserting itself so that you notice (out of sight, out of mind), then you try to cop out and say it's no big deal....BUT you point out that it's a sign of non-assimilation? Seems you're contradicting yourself...get it together, man!

Assimiliation? I got news for ya, bunky....black folk were in the USA a century or two BEFORE IT BECAME A COUNTRY. That means you had GENERATIONS of black people born and raised here, speaking English and living by the customs of the specific region of the country....many BEFORE the "great immigration" of the 1890's. Now African Americans are no more giving up their cultural heritage than Anglo-Saxon, German, French, Polish, Scottish, Irish, Jewish, Dutch, etc. Americans. So it's tough toenails if you don't like it....NO ONE ASKED YOU TO. But if you can't tell the difference between a black American or a black man from the African continent or the Middle East, that's your problem. I suggest you take a trip to the UN and ask a Kenyan or Libyian or Senegalese to recognize black Americans for you.

<snip>

r.[/COLOR]

I don't know exactly what you are trying to say here. The various fiill-in-the-blanks Americans that you mention are not that easy to identify after a generation or two. Scottish-Americans, as an example, have not developed an American Scottich indentity that connects one to the other and extends to dress, language, attitude, handshakes, music, dance and so on. The UN Blacks that you mention would never be mistaken for American Blacks.

The American Black Culture is unique in the world. It is a culture within a culture.

I happen to like it. Why you think that I don't is beyond me. It does separate Blacks from the mainstream of society, however, and THAT is what I said. Just becuase you hate does not mean that I hate.

If something is, it is.

Other groups have assimilated. Is assimilation good or bad? I have no opinion on that. Will assimilation into any group promote becoming a part of that group? Certainly. However, it will also result in losing that which makes the assimilated group unique.

My point is this: If any group strives to be separated from any other group, it cannot resonably expect to become a part of that group in completeness.

Blacks seem to strive to be separated from the mainstream of society by asserting their uniqueness. That's great! As I said, this culture is a colorful thread in the fabric of the country. Do you assert that there is no difference in the, for lack of a better set of terms, the "Black Culture" and the "White Culture" within the USA? If you do, one of my favorite entertainers, Chris Rock, might differ with you. American humor has roots that go deeply into the American Black Culture. Humor is a great way to bridge differences and to expose me to myself as Rock has done for me many times.

I don't know if you are Black or not. I assume that you are. Anger is also a part of the American Black Culture. The first time I went to Jamaica, I was surprised that black people in Jamaica "looked" different to me than Black People in America. When I got back to Miami, it hit me. The Blacks in Miami looked Pissed Off. Jamaicans just look happy. That was in about 1980, give or take.

Anyway, back to the point: Does either political party in this country court the Scottish-American vote or the French vote, the German vote? They do court the Jewish vote because that is, again, a culture within a culture. I really don't understand this allegiance, either. It is what it is.

And, again, the "fantastic statement" that you refer to is not something that I said, it is something that you made up.

 

[IanC]

code said-

I have not read the Bell Curve.

The testing sounds impressive. Does further testing reveal anything about "Blacks" who are raised in settings that are stereotypically middle to high class with language and educational basics equal to that of their peers of various racial backgrounds? Were there any prequalifiers that separted the groups not by race, but rather by pre-test academic achievement?

That is, comparing A+ Blacks to A+ Whites, A+ Asians and so on?

While TBC is reasonable on the whole, Arthur Jensen is the gold standard on intelligence form function and testing. I recommend 'Bias in Mental Testing' or 'The g Factor'.

As to testing A+ blacks to A+ whites, data is available for any levels that you care to define. AP courses show an interesting form. White students have a normal (bell) shaped curve of results while black students show results almost entirely in the failing end, as if the curve for them was shifted to the left. Blacks also take AP courses at a much lower rate than whites which presumably means only top black students attempt the stronger courses. Other examples include college SAT sccores. There is a large gap between B/W. Post graduate courses show an even larger racial gap.

In California it was found that black students from affluent homes were outperformed by whites from poor households.

There is no doubt that there is a considerable difference in average intelligence between blacks and whites. We can argue the reasons for why that is so but not that the gap exists. That gap is a major reason why blacks have more difficulty finding and holding jobs.

 

[Flagwavrusa]

code said-

I have not read the Bell Curve.

The testing sounds impressive. Does further testing reveal anything about "Blacks" who are raised in settings that are stereotypically middle to high class with language and educational basics equal to that of their peers of various racial backgrounds? Were there any prequalifiers that separted the groups not by race, but rather by pre-test academic achievement?

That is, comparing A+ Blacks to A+ Whites, A+ Asians and so on?

While TBC is reasonable on the whole, Arthur Jensen is the gold standard on intelligence form function and testing. I recommend 'Bias in Mental Testing' or 'The g Factor'.

As to testing A+ blacks to A+ whites, data is available for any levels that you care to define. AP courses show an interesting form. White students have a normal (bell) shaped curve of results while black students show results almost entirely in the failing end, as if the curve for them was shifted to the left. Blacks also take AP courses at a much lower rate than whites which presumably means only top black students attempt the stronger courses. Other examples include college SAT sccores. There is a large gap between B/W. Post graduate courses show an even larger racial gap.

In California it was found that black students from affluent homes were outperformed by whites from poor households.

There is no doubt that there is a considerable difference in average intelligence between blacks and whites. We can argue the reasons for why that is so but not that the gap exists. That gap is a major reason why blacks have more difficulty finding and holding jobs.

Couldnt have said it better myself Ian nice job, I might also mention that in the famous Minnesota Transracial Adoption study blacks and whites raised in the same upper middle class households experienced the identical educationally privileged environments yet in the end whites outscored blacks on IQ tests by a full standard deviation, same as usual. Improving the environment of blacks does not improve their IQ relative to whites.

 

[code1211]

code said-

I have not read the Bell Curve.

The testing sounds impressive. Does further testing reveal anything about "Blacks" who are raised in settings that are stereotypically middle to high class with language and educational basics equal to that of their peers of various racial backgrounds? Were there any prequalifiers that separted the groups not by race, but rather by pre-test academic achievement?

That is, comparing A+ Blacks to A+ Whites, A+ Asians and so on?

While TBC is reasonable on the whole, Arthur Jensen is the gold standard on intelligence form function and testing. I recommend 'Bias in Mental Testing' or 'The g Factor'.

As to testing A+ blacks to A+ whites, data is available for any levels that you care to define. AP courses show an interesting form. White students have a normal (bell) shaped curve of results while black students show results almost entirely in the failing end, as if the curve for them was shifted to the left. Blacks also take AP courses at a much lower rate than whites which presumably means only top black students attempt the stronger courses. Other examples include college SAT sccores. There is a large gap between B/W. Post graduate courses show an even larger racial gap.

In California it was found that black students from affluent homes were outperformed by whites from poor households.

There is no doubt that there is a considerable difference in average intelligence between blacks and whites. We can argue the reasons for why that is so but not that the gap exists. That gap is a major reason why blacks have more difficulty finding and holding jobs.

Couldnt have said it better myself Ian nice job, I might also mention that in the famous Minnesota Transracial Adoption study blacks and whites raised in the same upper middle class households experienced the identical educationally privileged environments yet in the end whites outscored blacks on IQ tests by a full standard deviation, same as usual. Improving the environment of blacks does not improve their IQ relative to whites.

Thank you both for your responses. Again, I am amazed at the resources available through the web.

I was hoping that results would be different.

In any event, there are other distractions that Blacks encounter that Whites do not. There have been times when I was the only White in a group of Blacks and when I was in a pair with a Black in an exclusively, and in this particular case somewhat hostile, White environment.

There is an unease in those situations not present when I am one of the majority group. Not being at ease detacts from focusing on the task at hand.

 

[taichiliberal]

Taichiliberal, Thank you for your interest in this topic. I do recall after it was published that some critics of the book, such as the ones you cited, voiced their opinion against it, but its hardly fair to say the book was 'discredited". Regardless, You dont need to read the bell curve to verify its contention that blacks are less intelligent than whites, because a hundred years of IQ testing incontrovertibly supports this fact. Just listen to the American Psychological Association, the world's premier organization of psychologists comprised of 152000 scientists and educators. "A report issued by the APA in 1996 concluded that the racial IQ gap between African American and White Americans has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began, and concluded that the gap is not the result of "any obvious biases in the construction or administration of tests, nor does it simply reflect differences in socioeconomic status"." (American Psychologist 51: 77–101. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.51.2.77) As the Bell Curve asserted, these difference are at least in part, if not largely, due to genetic factors, considering that differences in intelligence among people is largely the result of genetic inheritance. The best proof of this is a review of 111 scientific studies of monozygotic twins which reveal that the higher the percentage of genes individuals have in common, then the more similar their iq, regardless of the environment they are raised in. That is, monozygotic twins have very similar iqs even when raised in very different environments, wheres mere cousins are not that much more likely than two random individuals to possess a similar iq level. American Psychologist 51(2): 77–101. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.51.2.77. The facts about black iq speak for themselves.

Sorry to inform you, but the whole concept of using IQ tests to determine racial inferiority was laid to rest awhile back. Go to this google page and click on the link to the University of Rhode Island paper on Race, Class, IQ and Economic Success

Shockley twins race discredited - Google Search

For you to invoke the nonsense that was once played by Shockley is pathetic. He was discredited, and the APA's declaration was discredited previously by Noam Chomsky, the man who wrote the book on how we communicate.

Chomsky on IQ and inequality at newlearningonline.com

 

[Trajan]

If you paid real attention, mani, you would know that I often blame both sides. I certainly view all politicians with equal contempt.... However, on this particular subject.... it is the Dems that have failed the minorities. They set themselves up as the 'party of minorities' and treat them like children.

they treat them like children and attack them if they dare support another party.

I never ceases to amaze me that the Minorities continue to flock to a Party that so openly uses them.

It fucking amazes me how Republicans want African Americans to flock to a political who's against affirmative action, supports bills and laws that disprortionately puts minorities and the poor at a disadvantage, a party thats against labor unions and a party thats against spending money on social programs to help the poor while at the same fucking time supporting any and all legislation that favors the rich like tax cuts for the richest of the rich that don't do shit to help the economy.

fact- African Americans have been voting as a 85%+ monolithic block for democrats since civil rights.....hows that working out?