Institutionalized racism... or are blacks just less employable?

[California Girl]

Is there anything you can't blame the democrats for CG?

If you paid real attention, mani, you would know that I often blame both sides. I certainly view all politicians with equal contempt.... However, on this particular subject.... it is the Dems that have failed the minorities. They set themselves up as the 'party of minorities' and treat them like children.

While the right treats them like dirt.

Gee, it must be nice to know so much about how 'the right' sees everything. In fact, that's kind of why blacks are losing out. Because liberals apparently are incapable of viewing anything rationally and without an agenda. If liberals were capable of being rational, they would acknowledge that 'the right' don't treat anyone like dirt... including liberals.

Conservatives want to enable blacks to provide for themselves, rather than handouts. That has nothing to do with minimum wage or anything else. It is to do with education. If you keep telling blacks that they don't have to achieve, that its ok to have child after child after child, without having to support those children.... Exactly what do you expect of those children? They, like their parents, will see a society that does not value them, does not expect anything from them and so they don't try.

That is what liberal policies do. They keep minorities 'in their place' - as 'pet projects' to be taken care of. Well, maybe they would be better if we treated them like equals and expected the same from them as everyone else. Maybe we should teach kids that it is NOT ok to produce children they cannot afford, that they are Americans - equal to the rest of us - and they are not entitled to jack shit - other than a level playing field.

 

[California Girl]

Is there anything you can't blame the democrats for CG?

If you paid real attention, mani, you would know that I often blame both sides. I certainly view all politicians with equal contempt.... However, on this particular subject.... it is the Dems that have failed the minorities. They set themselves up as the 'party of minorities' and treat them like children.

The next time I see you blame republicans for anything will be the first.

It may have escaped your notice but the Republicans are not in power. I wasn't on the forum when they were. So, no, you won't have seen me criticize them much.... but.... I tend to view both parties as shit.

 

[code1211]

I don't think it's racism that a lot of blacks are less able to find employment.

Think it has more to do with what they're able to show a potential employer about their various work skills, previous employment, understanding of how to act, dress, talk, etc. in a particular work environment.

Someone shows up for an opening I've got wearing a baseball cap on sideways, saggy pants showing off their choice of underwear, and not able to speak proper English isn't going to get beyond filling out an application. Not because I'm racist but because that's not the image I want representing my company. And it's certainly not my job to educate them to such reality. That's the responsibility of their families or someone else in their community.

I walked into the reception area of my company the other day and looked at a group of 5 folks filling out apps. 4 were the pants on the ground guys and one was wearing slacks, polished shoes, a clean, pressed shirt and a tie with a nice haircut.

Of the group, the polished shoes guy was the only one who looked up when I walked by and smiled.

All were Black.

Guess which one I told the manager of the department looking to come and see.

 

[IanC]

combination of things.

The blacks I see in college are insufficiently prepared. They don't lack the brains, they lack skills.

Minorities in general have a chip on their shoulder, even the asians, when it comes to dealing with how they are treated. (with good reason in many cases. Asians take this as an excuse to kick ass. Blacks seem defeated.

Blacks don't seem interested in white english. the Asians try really hard. Especially difficult given how different english is from most asian languages. I think the blacks have been conned in this regard, as speaking the language is, As George Bernard Shaw noted, the key to being "one of us" 0bama's biggest step to success, I believe.

there very real prejudice, and blacks are seen as Stepan Fetchet types. (I am sure there are you tube videos of that available.) This results in them being last hired, first fired. The actual blacks I have worked with are nothing like this at all, but the prejudice is there.

Anyway, given the level of education the blacks get in mostly black schools (which I am sure are dumping grounds) leaves them at the mercy of economic cycles, and the level of prejudice in white society (worse among liberals in my experience from conversations) means they always get the short end of the economic stick.

Ogbu's study on Shaker Heights shows that black culture is the main cause of black underperformance in affluent schools. And blacks themselves are the main cause of poor education in majority black schools. How exactly are we going to change black culture? There has been billions of dollars spent and hundreds of programs tried, for very trivial results.

 

[Trajan]

I think it has more to do with the economic policies of corporate america.

thats the Harrington argument, that in the end, the 'system' is broken and precludes blacks and the then, poor from achieving. This was addressed in the WOP and job trng prgms instituted starting in 65....the numbers at first appeared encouraging, but do to social polices enacted, policy they slipped, in short it because it became just as attractive to collect some form of gov. entitlement than train and educate yourself for the workplace.

We didn't have to start raising the minimal wage until we started letting corporate America control our country, and in the process started going after unions, and moving our jobs over seas. We have to raise minimal wage because people have to survive on it now.
You can thank Reagan for high number of poor uneducated people in this country, and for destroying black america.

minimum wage is not nor has it ever been designed or seen as a livable wage, not should it be.

 

[Trajan]

combination of things.

The blacks I see in college are insufficiently prepared. They don't lack the brains, they lack skills.

Minorities in general have a chip on their shoulder, even the asians, when it comes to dealing with how they are treated. (with good reason in many cases. Asians take this as an excuse to kick ass. Blacks seem defeated.

Blacks don't seem interested in white english. the Asians try really hard. Especially difficult given how different english is from most asian languages. I think the blacks have been conned in this regard, as speaking the language is, As George Bernard Shaw noted, the key to being "one of us" 0bama's biggest step to success, I believe.

there very real prejudice, and blacks are seen as Stepan Fetchet types. (I am sure there are you tube videos of that available.) This results in them being last hired, first fired. The actual blacks I have worked with are nothing like this at all, but the prejudice is there.

Anyway, given the level of education the blacks get in mostly black schools (which I am sure are dumping grounds) leaves them at the mercy of economic cycles, and the level of prejudice in white society (worse among liberals in my experience from conversations) means they always get the short end of the economic stick.

Ogbu's study on Shaker Heights shows that black culture is the main cause of black underperformance in affluent schools. And blacks themselves are the main cause of poor education in majority black schools. How exactly are we going to change black culture? There has been billions of dollars spent and hundreds of programs tried, for very trivial results.

Yes, also, McWhorter- 'Losing the Race' details this from his perspective as well, from the classroom and beyond.

 

[Si modo]

The Democratic Party has a long history of championing government entitlements - entitlements that often penalize the recipients for getting on the path off of them. Things are changing today with the Black minority being mostly middle economic class rather than lower economic class, however there is still an lingering effect of being entrenched in the entitlements. When the economy tanks, they get hit harder.

 

[code1211]

combination of things.

The blacks I see in college are insufficiently prepared. They don't lack the brains, they lack skills.

Minorities in general have a chip on their shoulder, even the asians, when it comes to dealing with how they are treated. (with good reason in many cases. Asians take this as an excuse to kick ass. Blacks seem defeated.

Blacks don't seem interested in white english. the Asians try really hard. Especially difficult given how different english is from most asian languages. I think the blacks have been conned in this regard, as speaking the language is, As George Bernard Shaw noted, the key to being "one of us" 0bama's biggest step to success, I believe.

there very real prejudice, and blacks are seen as Stepan Fetchet types. (I am sure there are you tube videos of that available.) This results in them being last hired, first fired. The actual blacks I have worked with are nothing like this at all, but the prejudice is there.

Anyway, given the level of education the blacks get in mostly black schools (which I am sure are dumping grounds) leaves them at the mercy of economic cycles, and the level of prejudice in white society (worse among liberals in my experience from conversations) means they always get the short end of the economic stick.

I don't disagree with anything you said above.

Another part of the equation, though, is what have you done to help yourself today? Did you ask your boss what might make you a better employee? Did you observe those that seem to be doing well and try to emulate their activites? Their style? Their attitudes? Their dress? Have you asked what you need to learn to advance? Do you smile and use good manners and radiate an "I can do this" demeanor?

A large part of doing these things is seeing the goal and not the obstacle. If you know that your goal is to earn a living wage and have a job tomorrow, you will likely do the things listed above willingly and often.

If you know that the boss is just another jerk trying to keep you down and a guy that hates you and people like you, you will show the Bossman that he can't tell you what to do.

Either way, you are likely to achieve that thing you have set out to achieve.

 

[IanC]

One of the things that lefties don't understand is that there is a difference between stopping black culture from doing self destructive things and forcing black culture to self destruct. No sane person can say there is no opportunity for blacks because it is shown to be a lie by the millions of successful blacks. No sane person can say that being white guarantees success because there are millions of unsuccessful whites. Individual responsibility is the key.

 

[AkronGuy]

Look at historical charts, if memory serves, prior to minimal wage laws, UE was pretty even among the races and age groups. It's sad but as long as more blacks drop out of school and more blacks don't learn a trade; among other things; the UE rate will be higher;imho; than that of their racial counterparts in other groups.

I think it has more to do with the economic policies of corporate america. We didn't have to start raising the minimal wage until we started letting corporate America control our country, and in the process started going after unions, and moving our jobs over seas. We have to raise minimal wage because people have to survive on it now.
You can thank Reagan for high number of poor uneducated people in this country, and for destroying black america.

Actually you can thank black people for that. Noone's forcing them to drop out of school. Noone's forcing them into crime. Noone's forcing them to learn nothing in school and turn in applications and resumes that are laughably pathetic.

Until black people take responsibility for their actions, then nothing will change. Blame Reagan, liberals, conservatives, Clinton, Bush or anything else. But until black people take their futures into their own hands and stop blaming everyone BUT themselves for their crappy life choices, then nothing will change. I feel no sympathy for them.

 

[AkronGuy]

Is there anything you can't blame the democrats for CG?

If you paid real attention, mani, you would know that I often blame both sides. I certainly view all politicians with equal contempt.... However, on this particular subject.... it is the Dems that have failed the minorities. They set themselves up as the 'party of minorities' and treat them like children.

While the right treats them like dirt.

It's not the right's fault. It's their own fault. Their own crappy life choices have led by and large to what black America is at this time. The only way to better black America is too :

Stop having mulitiple babies by multiple men who can't even support themselves.

Stop fathering babies and then abandoning them.

Stop dropping out of school.

Stop quitting jobs at random or whenever someone doesn't kiss their feet.

Go to trade school or college.

Quit commiting crime and going to prison.

End the cultural idea that the "welfare fairy" will take care of you.

Take responsbility for their own actions, racism doesn't make you choose the above actions.

 

[AkronGuy]

I don't think it's racism that a lot of blacks are less able to find employment.

Think it has more to do with what they're able to show a potential employer about their various work skills, previous employment, understanding of how to act, dress, talk, etc. in a particular work environment.

Someone shows up for an opening I've got wearing a baseball cap on sideways, saggy pants showing off their choice of underwear, and not able to speak proper English isn't going to get beyond filling out an application. Not because I'm racist but because that's not the image I want representing my company. And it's certainly not my job to educate them to such reality. That's the responsibility of their families or someone else in their community.

Exactly. Or their applications are rife with typos and previous employment questions are answered in ways that you know as an interviewer, that the person has had bad prior employment history.

And yet it's "racism's" fault, rather than their own stupid ass decisions. It isn't my or any white person's fault that they sabotage their own futures.

 

[AkronGuy]

combination of things.

The blacks I see in college are insufficiently prepared. They don't lack the brains, they lack skills.

Minorities in general have a chip on their shoulder, even the asians, when it comes to dealing with how they are treated. (with good reason in many cases. Asians take this as an excuse to kick ass. Blacks seem defeated.

Blacks don't seem interested in white english. the Asians try really hard. Especially difficult given how different english is from most asian languages. I think the blacks have been conned in this regard, as speaking the language is, As George Bernard Shaw noted, the key to being "one of us" 0bama's biggest step to success, I believe.

there very real prejudice, and blacks are seen as Stepan Fetchet types. (I am sure there are you tube videos of that available.) This results in them being last hired, first fired. The actual blacks I have worked with are nothing like this at all, but the prejudice is there.

Anyway, given the level of education the blacks get in mostly black schools (which I am sure are dumping grounds) leaves them at the mercy of economic cycles, and the level of prejudice in white society (worse among liberals in my experience from conversations) means they always get the short end of the economic stick.

I don't think there's such a thing as "white English" as there is Mainstream American English. But to me, that's unimportant as long as the person can convey their message and communicate with their coworkers or peers.

They're last hired because often they criminal records, sketchy employment history, poor educations, horrible application submissions, poor resumes, bad attitudes and poor dress for interviews. First fired because about 80% of black folks I have worked with and have supervised were terrible workers and very antagonistic with their coworkers. Noone wants to deal with it and then when you do have a black worker who is a bad worker, you have to document document and document. Why would you want to hire someone who if they don't work out, may potentially sue you for something that wasn't the case for their dismissal ?

Do you know why black schools churn out bad students ? It's not the schools, it's the students in them. How can anyone learn in anarchy and chaos ? I've went to schools where the students were vastly majority black and it was pure anarchy. I've went to school where it was half black or a slight majority and it was the same. The students who wish to learn are held back by the ones who don't and no teacher who can't control the students can't teach the ones who want to learn.

Again self created problems.

 

[AkronGuy]

I don't think it's racism that a lot of blacks are less able to find employment.

Think it has more to do with what they're able to show a potential employer about their various work skills, previous employment, understanding of how to act, dress, talk, etc. in a particular work environment.

Someone shows up for an opening I've got wearing a baseball cap on sideways, saggy pants showing off their choice of underwear, and not able to speak proper English isn't going to get beyond filling out an application. Not because I'm racist but because that's not the image I want representing my company. And it's certainly not my job to educate them to such reality. That's the responsibility of their families or someone else in their community.

I walked into the reception area of my company the other day and looked at a group of 5 folks filling out apps. 4 were the pants on the ground guys and one was wearing slacks, polished shoes, a clean, pressed shirt and a tie with a nice haircut.

Of the group, the polished shoes guy was the only one who looked up when I walked by and smiled.

All were Black.

Guess which one I told the manager of the department looking to come and see.

Exactly !!!!

I've seen this kind of thing so many times in my working life. When someone comes before me for an interview and they're not dressed appropriately I'll dismiss them on the spot. And oh my lord, if they're black it's the "Yooz beez raycist !!" bullshit, but they seem to forget that it's a job interview and not an audition. And then there's the antagonistic attitude that you touched upon in your post, that's another thing that will not get you a job whatsoever. Why hire someone who can't even be cordial at the interview and is standoffish ? What will that person be like when they're hired ?

 

[mudwhistle]

Is there anything you can't blame the democrats for CG?

Bill Clinton's surplus.

 

[IanC]

Look at historical charts, if memory serves, prior to minimal wage laws, UE was pretty even among the races and age groups. It's sad but as long as more blacks drop out of school and more blacks don't learn a trade; among other things; the UE rate will be higher;imho; than that of their racial counterparts in other groups.

I think it has more to do with the economic policies of corporate america. We didn't have to start raising the minimal wage until we started letting corporate America control our country, and in the process started going after unions, and moving our jobs over seas. We have to raise minimal wage because people have to survive on it now.
You can thank Reagan for high number of poor uneducated people in this country, and for destroying black america.

Actually you can thank black people for that. Noone's forcing them to drop out of school. Noone's forcing them into crime. Noone's forcing them to learn nothing in school and turn in applications and resumes that are laughably pathetic.

Until black people take responsibility for their actions, then nothing will change. Blame Reagan, liberals, conservatives, Clinton, Bush or anything else. But until black people take their futures into their own hands and stop blaming everyone BUT themselves for their crappy life choices, then nothing will change. I feel no sympathy for them.

Actually I do feel a bit sorry. Its fairly easy to understand the resentment that occurs when our society tells blacks that they are equal in every way but then reality punishes them if they do not conform to the larger society's standards. It is much easier to blame racism than take a close look at your own behaviour.

 

[AkronGuy]

I think it has more to do with the economic policies of corporate america. We didn't have to start raising the minimal wage until we started letting corporate America control our country, and in the process started going after unions, and moving our jobs over seas. We have to raise minimal wage because people have to survive on it now.
You can thank Reagan for high number of poor uneducated people in this country, and for destroying black america.

Actually you can thank black people for that. Noone's forcing them to drop out of school. Noone's forcing them into crime. Noone's forcing them to learn nothing in school and turn in applications and resumes that are laughably pathetic.

Until black people take responsibility for their actions, then nothing will change. Blame Reagan, liberals, conservatives, Clinton, Bush or anything else. But until black people take their futures into their own hands and stop blaming everyone BUT themselves for their crappy life choices, then nothing will change. I feel no sympathy for them.

Actually I do feel a bit sorry. Its fairly easy to understand the resentment that occurs when our society tells blacks that they are equal in every way but then reality punishes them if they do not conform to the larger society's standards. It is much easier to blame racism than take a close look at your own behaviour.

It's one thing if someone behaves a certain way within their own community, but it's another when you're in the working and educational world. Every society on Earth punishes people who refuse to conform to what that society says is the norm. Either you make accomdations or you get left by the wayside. It's always easier to blame the straw man rather than to take responsibility for your actions and make the changes you need to make. The problem in this situation is that EVERYTHING literally is blamed on racism by the vast majority of black people I have met, economy ? Racist. Professional standards ? Racist. Someone doesn't agree with you ? Racist. Going to jail for commiting a crime ? Racist. Not letting a black person get their way or refuse to kiss their feet ? Racist. Hell I've seen black people claim it was racism when a fastfood restaurant didn't have what they wanted or it took too long.

 

[IanC]

While I understand the need to uphold standards, I can also understand the shock of an IQ85 individual who has tried to do well in K-12, and finds his accomplishments are not up to par when compared to the general population. Perhaps it is cruel to postpone the day of reckoning. An average black individual finds the opportunities available are less than the opportunities promised as they were growing up.

 

[AkronGuy]

While I understand the need to uphold standards, I can also understand the shock of an IQ85 individual who has tried to do well in K-12, and finds his accomplishments are not up to par when compared to the general population. Perhaps it is cruel to postpone the day of reckoning. An average black individual finds the opportunities available are less than the opportunities promised as they were growing up.

Well as far as people being stupid, that's part of nature. But at the sametime though, stupidity isn't an excuse for failure either. Everyone has their strengths though.

But the average individual finds out that no opprotunities are promised and that for 99% of humanity, opprotunities are created and not given.

 

[Trajan]

I think it has more to do with the economic policies of corporate america. We didn't have to start raising the minimal wage until we started letting corporate America control our country, and in the process started going after unions, and moving our jobs over seas. We have to raise minimal wage because people have to survive on it now.
You can thank Reagan for high number of poor uneducated people in this country, and for destroying black america.

Actually you can thank black people for that. Noone's forcing them to drop out of school. Noone's forcing them into crime. Noone's forcing them to learn nothing in school and turn in applications and resumes that are laughably pathetic.

Until black people take responsibility for their actions, then nothing will change. Blame Reagan, liberals, conservatives, Clinton, Bush or anything else. But until black people take their futures into their own hands and stop blaming everyone BUT themselves for their crappy life choices, then nothing will change. I feel no sympathy for them.

Actually I do feel a bit sorry. Its fairly easy to understand the resentment that occurs when our society tells blacks that they are equal in every way but then reality punishes them if they do not conform to the larger society's standards. It is much easier to blame racism than take a close look at your own behaviour.

the flip side of that is I think, that we abandoned the field due to some obscene 'white-guilt' decades ago.
It is an infamnia to say to blacks ; this or that behavior or attitude is self defeating, destructive, hateful or inappropriate. Few blacks can say it amongst their own.

No sect, race, creed, color, singularity etc. treated to a barrage of assistance and concomitant militant social upheaval that basically tells them they are victims to the inth degree and is surrounded by a cocoon devoid of criticism would turn out any other way.