Incredible Teachings of the Bible

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

And as far as trying to save the Jews... every Christian's duty is to make Christians of other people, Jew or non-Jew.

Sorry for shirking my duty so badly - what a good thing to worship such a forgiving God! But I would rather stick to trying to make Christianity a helpful and relevant force in today's society instead.

 

[Mustafa]

SLClemens

Well let me the first to step up to the plate, then. If Jewish people find more hope and fulfillment in Judaism by all means stay their (sic). There are several Jewish people who attend my church, one the fiance of one of our members and another who just likes to sing in our choir. They're perfectly welcome to retain whatever aspects of their faith are relevant and meaningful to them and under no pressure to "convert". We also have a few people of other faiths who I hope I can make feel welcome, too.

--Converts to another’s religion proves nothing as over half of the synagogue members that I attend are people who have converted for reasons other than marriage. Unfortunately there are hundreds of millions of dollars spent by some sects of Christianity, i.e., Southern Baptist Convention that uses subterfuge, deceit and pretense in that they are Jewish while in the NEW covenant stating that a belief in Jesus poses no conflict. Many of our synagogues have interfaith seminars and discussion groups so that each understands others beliefs. This is based on my reference to Philippians 1:18 which you forgot to mention.

There are a little over 12 million of Jews remaining on earth which have survived the civilizations that tried to destroy them since the time of Abraham. Incident: During the early 60s, a man by the name of Adolph Eichmann was captured in a South American country and taken to Israel for trial. He never denied who he was but simply stated that he was ordered to orchestrate the death of millions of Jews and gentiles by sending them at their own expense to the death camps.

Following his trial and sentencing, he was asked by the judges whether he wanted to make peace with his maker before he was hung. He stated yes and was sent an Episcopal minister who heard his confession. Eichmann was hung and cremated but the press of that day approached the minister. They asked him if this mass murderer had made peace with his maker. The minister replied that he had accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and that his sins were forgiven and living with Jesus in his mansion in the sky. One of the media asked him what about the millions of non-believers who never accepted Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The minister simply replied, “Oh these souls of the murdered men, women and children are burning in the everlasting hell fires while the murderer Eichmann lives in paradise with Jesus. That is the rational the Jewish people live with since the time of Paul and Constantine.

As for covenants, they're such only a big issue if you choose to interpret the Bible literally. Of course, you're more than welcome to do that if you like, but whether you're Jewish, Christian or Muslim you'll have a lot of trouble getting me to take your concerns seriously if they're grounded in a literal understanding of scriptural passages that I take figuratively or allegorically, instead of or even alongside a faith grounded foremost in the principle of equality of all humankind.

--The Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament (Torah) is more metaphorical giving all generations who read this document an example of real people with real problems and by extension learn lessons for living a moral and ethical existence on earth. Christianity for the most part interprets the New and Old Testaments literally leaving no room for allegory. The principles of equality of humankind are known by this document but humans were given the free-will ability to choose between taking the road of good or evil. There is no way mankind will totally accept that equality you seek until ‘the lion will eat hay, the wolf will lay with lamb, men will beat their swords (metaphorical) into plowshares and war will be known no more.” I take issue with the theft of Jewish souls away from the G-d of their forefathers by deception.

While I'm no Hebrew scholar, I don't think I have to be to look at the book of Joshua and conclude that a book that mentions capturing iron goods at Jericho hundreds of years before the Iron Age began in the region is a work that has been at best fictionalized. This isn't to say it's not very valuable in some respects, but if it can't get the Iron Age right I somewhat doubt that it contains the literal commands of God. If it doesn't, and such commands are the result of a community of faith re-writing its past to reflect its present needs and realities, I see no reason why cannot continue to do this and drop a bit of our irrational dogmatism.

You are again using that good ole English translation of the Hebrew word ‘bazel’ for iron in an iron age. Actually the word used in the Torah (Old Testament to you) means hard object or utensil and does not mean the refined ferrous ore called iron. In Joshua, the words concerning bronze and iron are translated incorrectly and there was no mention of Iron Age utensils. It is the considered opinion of those who now possess the archeological evidence known as the dead sea scrolls written some 2000 years ago which give credence to the fact that no re-writing of these five books of Moses can be demonstrated to be factual to this day. Irrational dogmatism is evident where one looks carefully.

 

[SLClemens]

Well what a lot to digest. I'll take just a few bites now since I actually have some things to do tonight more important than sound off on the net.

Originally posted by Mustafa
SLClemens

--Converts to another’s religion proves nothing as over half of the synagogue members that I attend [sic ] are people who have converted for reasons other than marriage. Unfortunately there are hundreds of millions of dollars spent by some sects of Christianity, i.e., [the ] Southern Baptist Convention that uses [sic ] subterfuge, deceit and pretense in that they are Jewish while in the NEW covenant stating that a belief in Jesus poses no conflict. Many of our synagogues have interfaith seminars and discussion groups so that each understands [the ] others [sic ] beliefs. This is based on my reference to Philippians 1:18 which you forgot to mention.

I don't know the Jews who attend my church very well but I don't consider them converts and I don't believe they do either. I think they come to my church because they like the service and the music (and in one case probably his girlfriend), but are still adherents to Judaism. They're welcome whether they want to "convert" or not, and I certainly would never try to pressure them to. My church also participates in interfaith dialogues including encouraging participation in Ramadan and Passover festivities. I'm delighted when I hear of Synagogues doing the same.

The American Southern Baptist Convention represents, I believe, around 15 million of the 1.5 billion or so world's Christians. I don't see why you'd want to waste your time getting fixated on how a few of them reinterpret or misinterpret the Jewish covenant. If they want to think they've inhereted some Jewish covenant it's not a big concern for me - in any event I doubt that many of them have thought that deeply about it.

 

[Zebra]

LOL. Christianity is a great concept and maybe I would be a Christian, however, Darwin, Nietzche, Rand and Sartre came along and savaged it.

The Old Testament advocates a lot worse things what you post. For example in the book of Joshua it describes the rape and genocide of the Caananites under the command of God. It is also in the Old Testament where it says that homosexuality is an abomination. I find it interesting that conservative politicians will use the Bible to justify homosexuality but not rape and genocide.

I am pretty sure that in the NEW testament, it was made very clear that the rules that are laid down in the Old Testament no longer apply. Otherwise, why don't Christians follow kosher and other Jewish traditions?

not nice!

 

[Woodznutz]

Where is homosexuality condemned in the New Testament?

Genocide...

Joshua 6
1 Now Jericho was tightly shut up because of the Israelites. No one went out and no one came in.
2 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.

20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Joshua 8
1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land.

24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day-all the people of Ai.

Joshua 10
16 Now the five kings had fled and hidden in the cave at Makkedah...26 Then Joshua struck and killed the kings and hung them on five trees, and they were left hanging on the trees until evening...28 That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors. And he did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.

29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. 30 The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there.

32 The LORD handed Lachish over to Israel, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah.

34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. 35 They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.

36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. 37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.
38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir. 39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. Everyone in it they totally destroyed. They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron.
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD , the God of Israel, had commanded

Joshua 11
1 When Jabin king of Hazor heard of this, he sent word ... 4 They came out with all their troops and a large number of horses and chariots-a huge army, as numerous as the sand on the seashore...7 So Joshua and his whole army came against them suddenly at the Waters of Merom and attacked them...

10 At that time Joshua turned back and captured Hazor and put its king to the sword. (Hazor had been the head of all these kingdoms.) 11 Everyone in it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed [2] them, not sparing anything that breathed, and he burned up Hazor itself.

12 Joshua took all these royal cities and their kings and put them to the sword. He totally destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded. 13 Yet Israel did not burn any of the cities built on their mounds-except Hazor, which Joshua burned. 14 The Israelites carried off for themselves all the plunder and livestock of these cities, but all the people they put to the sword until they completely destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed.

20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Rape...

Numbers 31
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."
3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them...14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Numbers 31
Dividing the Spoils:
32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32. ... human sacrifice?

Deuteronomy 20
13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

(congratulations, Old Testament)

Ah, the goodle days.

 

[Woodznutz]

Well let me the first to step up to the plate, then. If Jewish people find more hope and fulfillment in Judaism by all means stay their. There are several Jewish people who attend my church, one the fiance of one of our members and another who just likes to sing in our choir. They're perfectly welcome to retain whatever aspects of their faith are relevant and meaningful to them and under no pressure to "convert". We also have a few people of other faiths who I hope I can make feel welcome, too.

As for covenents, they're such only a big issue if you choose to interpret the Bible literally. Of course, you're more than welcome to do that if you like, but whether you're Jewish, Christian or Muslim you'll have a lot of trouble getting me to take your concerns seriously if they're grounded in a literal understanding of scriptural passages that I take figuratively or allegorically, instead of or even alongside a faith grounded foremost in the principle of equality of all humankind.

While I'm no Hebrew scholar, I don't think I have to be to look at the book of Joshua and conclude that a book that mentions capturing iron goods at Jericho hundreds of years before the iron age began in the region is a work that has been at best fictionalized. This isn't to say it's not very valuable in some respects, but if it can't get the iron age right I somewhat doubt that it contains the literal commands of God. If it doesn't, and such commands are the result of a community of faith re-writing its past to reflect its present needs and realities, I see no reason why cannot continue to do this and drop a bit of our irrational dogmatism.

The local use of iron prior to the "iron age" is quite reasonable.