In-Depth Fortune Story on "Fast & Furious" Paints Totally Different Picture Than Issa

[Vast LWC]

So explain to me what the goal of Fast & Furious really was, Closed? If you're saying that the laws of AZ were so "relaxed" that that you can't stop people from buying and selling weapons...then why did the ATF ENCOURAGE gun shops to sell to straw buyers?

Why would they need to have "encouraged" anything?

Do you feel the gun shop owners knew who were straw buyers and who wasn't?

All they did was include the gun owners in on the investigation, so that they could provide information when needed.

There is no law in AZ against selling someone 20 automatic weapons at once.

One guy literally bought 600 guns in a day, legally, according to the ATF.

 

[The Rabbi]

No. Actually the moment the buyer checked the yes box on the 4473 that asks "are you the actual buyer of the gun" and signed the form he had committed a felony. And since the approval was done with permission of ATF that makes them an accomplice to that felony.

Incorrect, because once you own the gun, it is not illegal to then resell it, down the line.

Go online, look for "used guns". You'll find a whole load of them for sale, legally.

Whether you own it for a year, or a day and a half, it's the same thing.

A crime only occurs if they are resold to a known criminal.

Dude, you know I own a gun shop for a living, right?
The first question on the 4473 is "are you the actual buyer of the firearm?" If you are buying the gun for someone else then you are not the actual buyer. It doesnt matter whether the actual buyer is prohibited or not.
In this case the sale was made knowing the ultimate buyer was a Mexican drug cartel. So the purchaser was not the actual buyer. The dealer doing the sale knew this and didnt want to make the sale. The ATF knew this too and instructed the dealer to go ahead, knowing it was an illegal sale.
That is illegal. And ATF agents aided and abetted breaking the law.

 

[The Rabbi]

So explain to me what the goal of Fast & Furious really was, Closed? If you're saying that the laws of AZ were so "relaxed" that that you can't stop people from buying and selling weapons...then why did the ATF ENCOURAGE gun shops to sell to straw buyers?

Why would they need to have "encouraged" anything?

Do you feel the gun shop owners knew who were straw buyers and who wasn't?

All they did was include the gun owners in on the investigation, so that they could provide information when needed.

There is no law in AZ against selling someone 20 automatic weapons at once.

One guy literally bought 600 guns in a day, legally, according to the ATF.

You relaly need to stop posting in threads where you don't know jack shit on the subject. Of course that would be all threads.
An "automatic weapon" is a highly restricted item that requires about a 6 month Federal background check, with photos and fingerprints. There were no automatic weapons involved here.
The gun shop owners definitely knew they were straw purchases and wanted to deny on that basis but werte told by ATF to finish the transaction.

 

[Vast LWC]

Dude, you know I own a gun shop for a living, right?
The first question on the 4473 is "are you the actual buyer of the firearm?" If you are buying the gun for someone else then you are not the actual buyer. It doesnt matter whether the actual buyer is prohibited or not.
In this case the sale was made knowing the ultimate buyer was a Mexican drug cartel. So the purchaser was not the actual buyer. The dealer doing the sale knew this and didnt want to make the sale. The ATF knew this too and instructed the dealer to go ahead, knowing it was an illegal sale.
That is illegal. And ATF agents aided and abetted breaking the law.

Prove that the buyer committed a crime.

Go ahead. Try and prove it.

All the buyer has to say is that he didn't buy with the intention to resell it immediately, but changed his mind.

And that's perfectly legal.

 

[The Rabbi]

Dude, you know I own a gun shop for a living, right?
The first question on the 4473 is "are you the actual buyer of the firearm?" If you are buying the gun for someone else then you are not the actual buyer. It doesnt matter whether the actual buyer is prohibited or not.
In this case the sale was made knowing the ultimate buyer was a Mexican drug cartel. So the purchaser was not the actual buyer. The dealer doing the sale knew this and didnt want to make the sale. The ATF knew this too and instructed the dealer to go ahead, knowing it was an illegal sale.
That is illegal. And ATF agents aided and abetted breaking the law.

Prove that the buyer committed a crime.

Go ahead. Try and prove it.

All the buyer has to say is that he didn't buy with the intention to resell it immediately, but changed his mind.

And that's perfectly legal.

The buyer bought with the intention of selling the gun to someone else. That is apparent from what happened. If I did that ATF would have my license in no time.

 

[Vast LWC]

You relaly need to stop posting in threads where you don't know jack shit on the subject. Of course that would be all threads.
An "automatic weapon" is a highly restricted item that requires about a 6 month Federal background check, with photos and fingerprints. There were no automatic weapons involved here.
The gun shop owners definitely knew they were straw purchases and wanted to deny on that basis but werte told by ATF to finish the transaction.

You're really grasping here.

Tell me, what happens when you buy a semi-automatic weapon, say, I don't know, let's go with an M16, and then you modify it to be fully automatic?

Sure, it's illegal to do that here, but do you think the Cartels really care about that once they get the weapon?

 

[Vast LWC]

The buyer bought with the intention of selling the gun to someone else. That is apparent from what happened. If I did that ATF would have my license in no time.

"That is apparent from what happened"?

Try and prove that in court.

Never. Gonna. Happen.

 

[The Rabbi]

You relaly need to stop posting in threads where you don't know jack shit on the subject. Of course that would be all threads.
An "automatic weapon" is a highly restricted item that requires about a 6 month Federal background check, with photos and fingerprints. There were no automatic weapons involved here.
The gun shop owners definitely knew they were straw purchases and wanted to deny on that basis but werte told by ATF to finish the transaction.

You're really grasping here.

Tell me, what happens when you buy a semi-automatic weapon, say, I don't know, let's go with an M16, and then you modify it to be fully automatic?

Sure, it's illegal to do that here, but do you think the Cartels really care about that once they get the weapon?

You reallly dont know jack shit about any of this, do you?
The cartels have plenty of access to M16sand AK47s left over from Colombia and other South American conflicts.
In any case, what does modifying a semi auto have to do with your argument?
You are not even grasping at straws. You are down for the count.

 

[The Rabbi]

The buyer bought with the intention of selling the gun to someone else. That is apparent from what happened. If I did that ATF would have my license in no time.

"That is apparent from what happened"?

Try and prove that in court.

Never. Gonna. Happen.

Known gun traffickers were buying multiples of guns. That is a straw purchase.
There is no need to prove it as ATF admitted from the outset these were straw purchases.

You need to quit posting here as your knowledge of guns and gun laws is about non-existent.

 

[BDBoop]

The buyer bought with the intention of selling the gun to someone else. That is apparent from what happened. If I did that ATF would have my license in no time.

"That is apparent from what happened"?

Try and prove that in court.

Never. Gonna. Happen.

Known gun traffickers were buying multiples of guns. That is a straw purchase.
There is no need to prove it as ATF admitted from the outset these were straw purchases.

You need to quit posting here as your knowledge of guns and gun laws is about non-existent.

You don't know shit about shit, but you're still here.

You really need to stop issuing orders like somebody is listening. Makes your derangement way too obvious.

 

[The Rabbi]

"That is apparent from what happened"?

Try and prove that in court.

Never. Gonna. Happen.

Known gun traffickers were buying multiples of guns. That is a straw purchase.
There is no need to prove it as ATF admitted from the outset these were straw purchases.

You need to quit posting here as your knowledge of guns and gun laws is about non-existent.

You don't know shit about shit, but you're still here.

You really need to stop issuing orders like somebody is listening. Makes your derangement way too obvious.

Please post what expierience you have in firearms sales, law enforcement or legal issues connected with firearms.
Actually if you would just post something that resembled an argument based on something resembling fact you might be taken seriously. Instead you are merely insulting or a cheerleader for the brain-dead left.

 

[BDBoop]

Known gun traffickers were buying multiples of guns. That is a straw purchase.
There is no need to prove it as ATF admitted from the outset these were straw purchases.

You need to quit posting here as your knowledge of guns and gun laws is about non-existent.

You don't know shit about shit, but you're still here.

You really need to stop issuing orders like somebody is listening. Makes your derangement way too obvious.

Please post what expierience you have in firearms sales, law enforcement or legal issues connected with firearms.
Actually if you would just post something that resembled an argument based on something resembling fact you might be taken seriously. Instead you are merely insulting or a cheerleader for the brain-dead left.

Rabbi, with all due respect - due respect?

Okay, dude? Shut. The. ****. Up. NOBODY cares what you think, how you feel, what your perception is, or complete lack thereof. **** ALL NOBODY.

Go take your morning dosage.

 

[Vast LWC]

You reallly dont know jack shit about any of this, do you?
The cartels have plenty of access to M16sand AK47s left over from Colombia and other South American conflicts.
In any case, what does modifying a semi auto have to do with your argument?
You are not even grasping at straws. You are down for the count.

70% of Mexican weapons come from the US.

ATF: 70 percent of guns found in Mexico come from US

Nearly 70 percent of all guns found in Mexico came from the U.S. over the past four years, according to data released by the federal government on Thursday.

More than 68,000 of the 99,691 firearms that were recovered between 2007 and 2011, and submitted to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for trace testing, were either made in the U.S. or legally brought into the U.S. at one point, according to the agency.

And what do you mean "what does modifying a semi auto have to do with your argument?"

Those weapons are, for all intensive purposes, automatic weapons. You know perfectly well that it's not very difficult to remove the 3 shot limitation, and you can be damn sure the Cartels know how to do it.

 

[Vast LWC]

Known gun traffickers were buying multiples of guns. That is a straw purchase.
There is no need to prove it as ATF admitted from the outset these were straw purchases.

You need to quit posting here as your knowledge of guns and gun laws is about non-existent.

How are they "Known gun traffickers"?

If they're never arrested, they don't get a history.

And you really need to stop using the "you don't know what you're talking about argument". It really falls short when the points you make suck.

 

[Vast LWC]

Please post what expierience you have in firearms sales, law enforcement or legal issues connected with firearms.
Actually if you would just post something that resembled an argument based on something resembling fact you might be taken seriously. Instead you are merely insulting or a cheerleader for the brain-dead left.

Your experience seems to avail you nothing, as your pre-existing opinions get in the way of the facts.

You may sell guns, but you apparently know nothing about criminal prosecution.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

[Did the Fortune author write the article sitting down or standing up because he had just finished some hijinks with his male lover? The perverts be just 1% of the population, but yet they convinced 52% of Americans to vote a Commie into the office of president in 2008.
400 writers, editors, and columnists banded together via an internet listserv in 2008 to conspire, collude, and collaborate to collectively spin the news of the day to enable Barack Obama's election. They called themselves the "Unofficial Campaign To Elect Barack Obama". None of their names have made the obituaries in the intervening four years.
Lawyers who are still practicing tend to be fairly reliable in their discourse. In contrast, both Barack and Michelle Obama have lost their licenses to practice.

My how the mighty have fallen, depicted in the picture accompanying the article. What no gavel, Nancy? "Payback is a *****!" they say.]

"Today’s Big News Story: Eric Holder Cited For Contempt

On nearly any other day, that would have been the headline. And who knows? Years from now, history may record that today’s most important event was the House of Representatives’ voting to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in criminal contempt by a stunning 255-67 vote. Among those voting “Yea” were 17 Democrats, so the contempt citation was bipartisan to a meaningful degree.

The contempt resolution was, in my view, entirely justified. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is investigating Fast and Furious, which was–best case, as argued by Holder and the administration–an incredibly stupid program that resulted in hundreds of people being killed. No one questions the propriety of the House committee’s investigation; not on any rational ground, anyway. Pursuant to that investigation, the committee has subpoenaed certain documents from the Department of Justice. The subpoena is very narrow, and the committee is trying to enforce it with regard to only a tiny number of highly relevant documents. Nevertheless, the Obama administration, which evidently has much to hide, has told the House committee that it will ignore the subpoena. The administration has justified this lawlessness with a legally frivolous claim of executive privilege, as I wrote here. So the administration has left the House with no proper course but to vote a contempt resolution, as 17 Democrats recognized, to their credit

Sadly, dozens of Democratic representatives, including Nancy Pelosi and numerous members of the Congressional Black Caucus, walked out of the House chamber to protest the contempt vote. By doing so, they politicized what is really a rather straightforward legal issue. It is sad, but not at all surprising, to see the Democratic Party behaving in this manner.

What happens next? The House will vote to go to court to enforce its subpoena. The resulting court proceedings will last until well beyond November’s election, which is all the Obama administration is hoping for at this point. Obstruct, delay, obfuscate and try to change the subject: that is what Democrats in Washington have been reduced to."

Today’s Big News Story: Eric Holder Cited For Contempt | Power Line

 

[The Rabbi]

You reallly dont know jack shit about any of this, do you?
The cartels have plenty of access to M16sand AK47s left over from Colombia and other South American conflicts.
In any case, what does modifying a semi auto have to do with your argument?
You are not even grasping at straws. You are down for the count.

70% of Mexican weapons come from the US.

ATF: 70 percent of guns found in Mexico come from US

Nearly 70 percent of all guns found in Mexico came from the U.S. over the past four years, according to data released by the federal government on Thursday.

More than 68,000 of the 99,691 firearms that were recovered between 2007 and 2011, and submitted to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for trace testing, were either made in the U.S. or legally brought into the U.S. at one point, according to the agency.

And what do you mean "what does modifying a semi auto have to do with your argument?"

Those weapons are, for all intensive purposes, automatic weapons. You know perfectly well that it's not very difficult to remove the 3 shot limitation, and you can be damn sure the Cartels know how to do it.

Damn you are one ignorant son of a *****.
First off, the phrase is "for all intents and purposes." I dont know what an intensive purpose is.
Second, a three round burst is a select fire weapon, in the same class as a machine gun. ATF classes anything that produces more than one shot per pull of the trigger as a machine gun.
Finally, the cartels do not need to "remove the 3 shot limitation." They get all the M16s they want (American made, like most guns) from South America.

 

[The Rabbi]

Please post what expierience you have in firearms sales, law enforcement or legal issues connected with firearms.
Actually if you would just post something that resembled an argument based on something resembling fact you might be taken seriously. Instead you are merely insulting or a cheerleader for the brain-dead left.

Your experience seems to avail you nothing, as your pre-existing opinions get in the way of the facts.

You may sell guns, but you apparently know nothing about criminal prosecution.

Whatever I know or don't, it is infinite times more than you do, judging from this thread.

 

[Vast LWC]

[Did the Fortune author write the article sitting down or standing up because he had just finished some hijinks with his male lover? The perverts be just 1% of the population, but yet they convinced 52% of Americans to vote a Commie into the office of president in 2008.
400 writers, editors, and columnists banded together via an internet listserv in 2008 to conspire, collude, and collaborate to collectively spin the news of the day to enable Barack Obama's election. They called themselves the "Unofficial Campaign To Elect Barack Obama". None of their names have made the obituaries in the intervening four years.
Lawyers who are still practicing tend to be fairly reliable in their discourse. In contrast, both Barack and Michelle Obama have lost their licenses to practice.

My how the mighty have fallen, depicted in the picture accompanying the article. What no gavel, Nancy? "Payback is a *****!" they say.]

"Today’s Big News Story: Eric Holder Cited For Contempt

On nearly any other day, that would have been the headline. And who knows? Years from now, history may record that today’s most important event was the House of Representatives’ voting to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in criminal contempt by a stunning 255-67 vote. Among those voting “Yea” were 17 Democrats, so the contempt citation was bipartisan to a meaningful degree.

The contempt resolution was, in my view, entirely justified. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is investigating Fast and Furious, which was–best case, as argued by Holder and the administration–an incredibly stupid program that resulted in hundreds of people being killed. No one questions the propriety of the House committee’s investigation; not on any rational ground, anyway. Pursuant to that investigation, the committee has subpoenaed certain documents from the Department of Justice. The subpoena is very narrow, and the committee is trying to enforce it with regard to only a tiny number of highly relevant documents. Nevertheless, the Obama administration, which evidently has much to hide, has told the House committee that it will ignore the subpoena. The administration has justified this lawlessness with a legally frivolous claim of executive privilege, as I wrote here. So the administration has left the House with no proper course but to vote a contempt resolution, as 17 Democrats recognized, to their credit

Sadly, dozens of Democratic representatives, including Nancy Pelosi and numerous members of the Congressional Black Caucus, walked out of the House chamber to protest the contempt vote. By doing so, they politicized what is really a rather straightforward legal issue. It is sad, but not at all surprising, to see the Democratic Party behaving in this manner.

What happens next? The House will vote to go to court to enforce its subpoena. The resulting court proceedings will last until well beyond November’s election, which is all the Obama administration is hoping for at this point. Obstruct, delay, obfuscate and try to change the subject: that is what Democrats in Washington have been reduced to."

Today’s Big News Story: Eric Holder Cited For Contempt | Power Line

Hey look! Let's ignore the entire preceding conversation and start over, this time with someone else's blog!

And hey, while we're at it, we'll throw in some unsubstantiated accusations of bias, and a few homophobic insults as well.

Thanks for your ******* useless input.

Still no proof of any criminal behavior in Fast and Furious though.

 

[Vast LWC]

Damn you are one ignorant son of a *****.
First off, the phrase is "for all intents and purposes." I dont know what an intensive purpose is.
Second, a three round burst is a select fire weapon, in the same class as a machine gun. ATF classes anything that produces more than one shot per pull of the trigger as a machine gun.
Finally, the cartels do not need to "remove the 3 shot limitation." They get all the M16s they want (American made, like most guns) from South America.

Ahh, so:

1. Throw out random insults
2. Make a comment to make yourself look knowledgeable, while not telling us anything new.
3. Repeat your argument that Mexican guns come from South America, ignoring my data to the contrary.
and finally
4. Throw me some neg-rep because you're obviously losing the argument. (Not that I care, it's just funny).

Good work!