In Defense of Mike Pence, as He Declares His Candidacy for 2024

[Billiejeens]

I fully accept that for most of the idiots — at least those wearing deer antlers or just waving American flags — who invaded the Capitol to support Trump’s “Big Lie,” the expression “Hang Pence!” was not meant literally.

They didn’t start off planning to seize and hang the Vice-President — or even Pelosi. But that hardly matters.

Those who violently fought with police, who waved Trump flags or Confederate flags, who knowingly entered the Capitol to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power, all of those nevertheless had a violent and criminal agenda. All were playing a part in Trump’s failing plan to keep himself in power — no matter what.

Trump has convinced millions of his deluded followers that he is a hero, an “innocent man,” and we are in a “civil war without the bullets,” where virtually anything can be justified. On Jan. 6 he refused to tell his mob to stop their illegal actions … for hours. He had told his armed Oathkeeper and “Proud Boy” fighters to “stand by.” This was a classic authoritarian, semi-fascist move, part of a thought-out but happily failed strategy to keep himself in power un-Constitutionally.

Trump’s “genius” is in further dividing the country and setting it on the road to civil war, while keeping himself at the center of attention, and making even sedition seem like … “an innocent game.”

So boring
Always
That's who you are.

 

[Foxfyre]

So boring
Always
That's who you are.

He's right in one respect. Even though there are many who strongly resented Pence that day, nobody literally wanted to hang him or physically harm him or anybody else in any way.

Pretending that Patriots literally threatened Pence is just another gimmick by the DNC and/or deep state to demonize anybody who gets in the way of their narrative, their agenda, their intent. J6 just offers them an opportunity to pretend they have an excuse to go militant on and intimidate or destroy any Patriot who challenges them in any way.

Pretending what happened that day was an 'insurrection' serves the same purpose for them.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

He's right in one respect. Even though there are many who strongly resented Pence that day, nobody literally wanted to hang him or physically harm him or anybody else in any way.

Pretending that Patriots literally threatened Pence is just another gimmick by the DNC and/or deep state to demonize anybody who gets in the way of their narrative, their agenda, their intent. J6 just offers them an opportunity to pretend they have an excuse to go militant on and intimidate or destroy any Patriot who challenges them in any way.

Pretending what happened that day was an 'insurrection' serves the same purpose for them.

I agree, but only in part.

Jan. 6 was of course not in itself a serious “insurrection” — but it was definitely a part of a thought-out plan to keep Trump in power after he lost the election — by disrupting and ultimately discrediting the legitimate 50-state validated Electoral vote.

Had Pence and a few other key individuals gone along with the plan, Trump’s despicable plan might have succeeded.

Five months ago we saw in Brazil a very similar but more forceful “insurrection” attempt by rightwing pro-Bolsonaro activists — very typical conduct by populist mobs supporting unelected dictators or encouraging “security-state” coups in South America.

I think Trump’s teams plans are now pretty well known, and these two Wikipedia articles — with a few exceptions — describe them accurately. Whatever adjectives we use to describe the shameful and rather farcical last minute “vanguard action” drama on Jan. 6th, I believe these descriptions will remain at the core of how historians will eventually understand what happened at and leading up to Jan. 6th:

Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election - Wikipedia
Trump fake electors plot - Wikipedia

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree, but only in part.

Jan. 6 was of course not in itself a serious “insurrection” — but it was definitely a part of a thought-out plan to keep Trump in power after he lost the election — by disrupting and ultimately discrediting the legitimately 50-state validated Electoral vote.

Had Pence and a few other key individuals gone along with the plan, Trump’s despicable plan might have succeeded. We saw in Brazil some months ago a very similar but more forceful attempt by rightwing activists — very typical conduct by authoritarians and would-be “Kings” in South America.

I think these plans are now pretty well known, and these two Wikipedia articles — with a few exceptions — describe them accurately. Whatever adjectives we use to describe the shameful and rather farcical last minute “vanguard action” drama on Jan. 6th, I believe these descriptions will remain at the core of how historians will eventually understand what happened at and leading up to Jan. 6th:

Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election - Wikipedia

Trump fake electors plot - Wikipedia

It was a HOPE to keep Trump in power by people who honestly believed the election had been stolen.

But J6 was specifically a people lawfully using their constitutional right to assemble and petition their government for an address of grievances. Pence was not asked to overturn the election but only to delay certification long enough for the investigations into election improprieties could be completed.

They did not arrive with weapons or anything else suggesting an intent to take over the government or attack those in government.

That a few idiots or perhaps operatives engineered and provoked a relatively short lived riot of a relatively few people compared to the many thousands who were there does not change the fact of the original intent or process. A tiny few committed vandalism that day and the vast majority who entered the building were peaceful, non threatening, non destructive. And the vast majority attending that day did not enter the Capital building.

There was no planned insurrection and no attempted insurrection. There might have been a small group of idiots who said they planned an insurrection but they certainly made no effort to carry one out.

 

[Billiejeens]

It was a HOPE to keep Trump in power by people who honestly believed the election had been stolen.

But J6 was specifically a people lawfully using their constitutional right to assemble and petition their government for an address of grievances. Pence was not asked to overturn the election but only to delay certification long enough for the investigations into election improprieties could be completed.

They did not arrive with weapons or anything else suggesting an intent to take over the government or attack those in government.

That a few idiots or perhaps operatives engineered and provoked a relatively short lived riot of a relatively few people compared to the many thousands who were there does not change the fact of the original intent or process. A tiny few committed vandalism that day and the vast majority who entered the building were peaceful, non threatening, non destructive. And the vast majority attending that day did not enter the Capital building.

There was no planned insurrection and no attempted insurrection. There might have been a small group of idiots who said they planned an insurrection but they certainly made no effort to carry one out.

There was no planned insurrection because Trump was still the president.
What idiots like this Paine in the ass fuck can't understand is the breach hurt Trump.
It occurred at the exact moment that it needed to, to hurt President Trump.
If there is a next time I suspect that it won't just be people tailgating and picture taking

 

[Foxfyre]

There was no planned insurrection because Trump was still the president.
What idiots like this Paine in the ass fuck can't understand is the breach hurt Trump.
It occurred at the exact moment that it needed to, to hurt President Trump.
If there is a next time I suspect that it won't just be people tailgating and picture taking

I would hope next time we'll be wiser and be prepared to stop the trouble makers, but I think you're right. I am pretty darn sure that the 'riot' was engineered not by Patriots and certainly not President Trump but was absolutely intended to make something ugly and prosecutable out of what would otherwise have been a peaceful and lawful gathering of people exercising their constitutional rights.

My opinion is reinforced by the like of Ray Epps shown many times on video encouraging people to breach the Capital police and go into the building. Also that he was helping push a large sign into the Capital police. Others doing that have been arrested, prosecuted and sentenced. Epps was scrubbed from the FBI watch list and records, was never indicted, tried, fined or jailed. High ranking FBI officials questioned in Congressional investigative committee refused to answer whether Epps was an FBI operative. How many more like him were there?

I do think some Patriots got caught up in the moment and exercised some poor judgment but were harmless in the process. The intent of the riot though was absolutely to hurt President Trump and make people afraid to support him.

 

[Catsnmeters]

You don’t understand hyperbole, as I had correctly surmised.

At ball games (especially in the past), the fans often let out a chant, “kill the ump!” You know what? Those chants weren’t literal, either.

Bullshit.

Zzz. No. I was simply correcting your nonsensical hyperbole.

Comparing Jan 6th sedition to a baseball game. Sad.

Was this guy using hyperbole too?

“If Pence caved we’re going to drag motherfuckers through the streets,” one rioter was captured on video saying. “He deserves to burn with the rest of them,” another said. A man with a bullhorn agitated the crowd. “Mike Pence has betrayed the United States of America,” he informed the already agitated mob. “Mike Pence has betrayed this President.” He finished with a threat and a promise: “We will never, ever forget.”

What We Learned About Trump, Pence, and the January 6th Mob

The third hearing on the attack on the Capitol revealed that the Proud Boys would have killed the Vice-President “if given the chance.”

www.newyorker.com

You're a traiters just like Trump, the man you love.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

There was no planned insurrection because Trump was still the president.
What idiots like this Paine in the ass fuck can't understand is the breach hurt Trump.
It occurred at the exact moment that it needed to, to hurt President Trump.
If there is a next time I suspect that it won't just be people tailgating and picture taking

You and Foxfyre have to explain then why Trump waited hours watching, waiting, refusing requests from all sides to tell the pro-Trump mob to leave.

You are an idiot if you think Trump being in power means he could not have tried to organize a crisis to help him stay in power and violate the legitimate transfer of power to Biden. That is exactly what I (and the Wikipedia articles) maintain. Of course in the last “Lame Duck” weeks of his presidency after losing the election his plans failed one after the other, and by Jan. 6th what was left of them was more “propaganda psycho-drama” than an element of an organized insurrection.

Jan. 6th did weaken him in some respects — but by repeating ad nauseam his Big Lie and holding the votes of his cult following over the head of most Republican “RINOs” and Fox media (who knew better) — Trump gambled he could turn attention away from his authoritarian attempt to stay in power. After all, what could they do to him. — he did not break into the Capitol!

Trump’s megalomaniacal gamble worked pretty well — he kept his reputation as the only “strong man” who had the courage to stand up to the Establishment, he now claims to be totally innocent and entirely the victim of a political witch-hunt, he hasn’t gone to jail (yet), and he remains the leading Republican candidate, promising if elected to seek revenge and to pardon the good patriots who were dumb enough to invade the Capitol to stop the Electoral Count (if only for hours).

Meanwhile most of the “RINOs” have been forced to toe the line. They voted against his 2nd Impeachment and themselves support his Big Lie (to one extent or another). Most Republicans, including Pence (I heard him this afternoon) agree that the new prosecution (and probably the upcoming Georgia one) are above all unjustified “political persecution.”

Apparently Billiejeens has never heard of an auto-golpe, something hardly unusual in “Banana Republics.” Trump’s effort, as the articles in Wikipedia make clear, was to seek a “legal” path or at least a legal facade to remain in power. He failed in all his efforts leading up to Jan. 6th, but he will certainly try again if given the chance. Optimally, of course, he hopes to win legal re-election in 2024.

If he succeeds in becoming the Republican candidate despite all his legal problems (or because of them), he may even win against Biden, especially if the economy tanks before then.

 

[Billiejeens]

You and Foxfyre have to explain then why Trump waited hours watching, waiting, refusing requests from all sides to tell the pro-Trump mob to leave.

You are an idiot if you think Trump being in power means he could not have tried to organize a crisis to help him stay in power and violate the legitimate transfer of power to Biden. That is exactly what I (and the Wikipedia articles) maintain. Of course in the last “Lame Duck” weeks of his presidency after losing the election his plans failed one after the other, and by Jan. 6th what was left of them was more “propaganda psycho-drama” than an element of an organized insurrection.

Jan. 6th did weaken him in some respects — but by repeating ad nauseam his Big Lie and holding the votes of his cult following over the head of most Republican “RINOs” and Fox media (who knew better) — Trump gambled he could turn attention away from his authoritarian attempt to stay in power. After all, what could they do to him. — he did not break into the Capitol!

Trump’s megalomaniacal gamble worked pretty well — he kept his reputation as the only “strong man” who had the courage to stand up to the Establishment, he now claims to be totally innocent and entirely the victim of a political witch-hunt, he hasn’t gone to jail (yet), and he remains the leading Republican candidate, promising if elected to seek revenge and to pardon the good patriots who were dumb enough to invade the Capitol to stop the Electoral Count (if only for hours).

Meanwhile most of the “RINOs” have been forced to toe the line. They voted against his 2nd Impeachment and themselves support his Big Lie (to one extent or another). Most Republicans, including Pence (I heard him this afternoon) agree that the new prosecution (and probably the upcoming Georgia one) are above all unjustified “political persecution.”

Apparently Billiejeens has never heard of an auto-golpe, something hardly unusual in “Banana Republics.” Trump’s effort, as the articles in Wikipedia make clear, was to seek a “legal” path or at least a legal facade to remain in power. He failed in all his efforts leading up to Jan. 6th, but he will certainly try again if given the chance. Optimally, of course, he hopes to win legal re-election in 2024.

If he succeeds in becoming the Republican candidate despite all his legal problems (or because of them), he may even win against Biden, especially if the economy tanks before then.

Too Boring Didn't Read

Try to make a clear concise point in 1 or 2 short paragraphs.

I think that you will surely fail.
Try.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

“Too Boring Didn't Read
Try to make a clear concise point in 1 or 2 short paragraphs.
I think that you will surely fail.” — Billiejeens

No. If you don’t want to read my comments, don’t.

I’m not interested in oversimplifying matters for you, or anyone else here. You are clearly not up for the kind of discussion I am seeking. I believe in being “succinct” — but reality here is not one dimensional. You may be better at appearing “succinct” than I am — but I just find you very confused … at best.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

P.S. if you don’t want to read my links, or write longish comments, you can just respond to one point I make in a short paragraph or two of your own — but try to focus on something I actually say, and try not to call me “stupid” … if you don’t mind. If you don’t start in that way, I will not reciprocate that way.

 

[Foxfyre]

Comparing Jan 6th sedition to a baseball game. Sad.

Was this guy using hyperbole too?

“If Pence caved we’re going to drag motherfuckers through the streets,” one rioter was captured on video saying. “He deserves to burn with the rest of them,” another said. A man with a bullhorn agitated the crowd. “Mike Pence has betrayed the United States of America,” he informed the already agitated mob. “Mike Pence has betrayed this President.” He finished with a threat and a promise: “We will never, ever forget.”

What We Learned About Trump, Pence, and the January 6th Mob

The third hearing on the attack on the Capitol revealed that the Proud Boys would have killed the Vice-President “if given the chance.”

www.newyorker.com

You're a traiters just like Trump, the man you love.

Hyperbole during emotional excitement. Stupid hyperbole maybe but hyperbole just the same with zero intention of doing anyone physical harm behind it. Anybody who says they have never engaged in such metaphorical language with no intent behind it, i.e. "They ought to hang him" or "He needs to be horse whipped" or "Send him to hell!" or "They ought to shoot him" or some such is probably 99% lying.

I once defended Nancy Pelosi on Twitter when somebody posted a meme with an awful quote they attributed to her. She never made any such quote and I said so in my Tweet along with "I'm not saying she shouldn't be hung, but she should be hung for a crime she actually committed." Twitter locked my account until I took down the tweet deeming it 'harassment.' It wasn't of course. It was a harmless metaphor just as is a line like "If you do that or do that again I'll knock you into the middle of next week."

To fail to distinguish between that and a real threat is a serious miscarriage of justice.

 

[BackAgain]

Comparing Jan 6th sedition to a baseball game. Sad.

There was no Jan 6 sedition.

Was this guy using hyperbole too?

“If Pence caved we’re going to drag motherfuckers through the streets,” one rioter was captured on video saying. “He deserves to burn with the rest of them,” another said. A man with a bullhorn agitated the crowd. “Mike Pence has betrayed the United States of America,” he informed the already agitated mob. “Mike Pence has betrayed this President.” He finished with a threat and a promise: “We will never, ever forget.”

What We Learned About Trump, Pence, and the January 6th Mob

The third hearing on the attack on the Capitol revealed that the Proud Boys would have killed the Vice-President “if given the chance.”

www.newyorker.com

Could be. Or he was just a random douchebag. Your mistake is to ascribe the imbecility of one or just a handful to all those on the other side. You’re very stupid that way. Well, and in many other ways, too.

You're a traiters just like Trump, the man you love.

You’re a brainless mumbling retard, just like Potato.

 

[Catsnmeters]

Hyperbole during emotional excitement. Stupid hyperbole maybe but hyperbole just the same with zero intention of doing anyone physical harm behind it. Anybody who says they have never engaged in such metaphorical language with no intent behind it, i.e. "They ought to hang him" or "He needs to be horse whipped" or "Send him to hell!" or "They ought to shoot him" or some such is probably 99% lying.

I once defended Nancy Pelosi on Twitter when somebody posted a meme with an awful quote they attributed to her. She never made any such quote and I said so in my Tweet along with "I'm not saying she shouldn't be hung, but she should be hung for a crime she actually committed." Twitter locked my account until I took down the tweet deeming it 'harassment.' It wasn't of course. It was a harmless metaphor just as is a line like "If you do that or do that again I'll knock you into the middle of next week."

To fail to distinguish between that and a real threat is a serious miscarriage of justice.

What is the real threat?

 

[Catsnmeters]

There was no Jan 6 sedition.


Could be. Or he was just a random douchebag. Your mistake is to ascribe the imbecility of one or just a handful to all those on the other side. You’re very stupid that way. Well, and in many other ways, too.


You’re a brainless mumbling retard, just like Potato.

Yet multiple accounts of sedition have been substantiated and clarified in a court of law.

 

[BackAgain]

Yet multiple accounts of sedition have been substantiated and clarified in a court of law.

There was no actual sedition on January 6.

 

[Foxfyre]

What is the real threat?

A real threat is somebody who intends somebody actual harm. Somebody calling or mailing death threats or bomb threats or some such to a person they want to intimidate or frighten. Somebody brandishing or displaying a weapon likely with intent to use it.

One time in a particular horrendous ground fight in Sicily, a solder asked General Omar Bradley who is in charge of this operation? Bradley, pinned down by deadly fire and unable to move his troops is famously quoted as saying, "I don't know, but they ought to shoot him." Did he mean that literally? Of course not. Nobody with intellectual honesty would represent that as anything other than frustration.

I daresay you have likely never threatened bodily harm to another person. But I'm pretty sure you have engaged in the kind of rhetoric that, taken out of context or the specific situation, would sound like you did. We all have.

 

[Billiejeens]

There was no Jan 6 sedition.


Could be. Or he was just a random douchebag. Your mistake is to ascribe the imbecility of one or just a handful to all those on the other side. You’re very stupid that way. Well, and in many other ways, too.


You’re a brainless mumbling retard, just like Potato.

Tru dat

 

[lennypartiv]

There was no planned insurrection because Trump was still the president.

And had gotten more votes than Trump prior to the fraudulent ballots appearing out of thin air.

 

[Catsnmeters]

There was no actual sedition on January 6.

Yet multiple people were convicted of sedition.