In a world without guns...the strong and the many can brutally beat the weak and outnumbered...

[2aguy]

So what does all that right to self defense get you?

1.4 million people who are not stabbed, raped, robbed, beaten or murdered...vs. 11-12,000 murders, 80% of which come from criminal gang activity, confined for the most part to inner cities controlled by the democrat party...the rest of the country is pretty peaceful...

There is a cost benefit analysis...and 1.4 million beats 11-12,000

 

[2aguy]

As has been pointed out...Britain is less violent in general...with or without guns....but the anti gunners keep using it...so we have to keep pointing out how violent it is even without guns...

I'll tell you what...we'll trade our criminal gangs for yours....add in the border with Mexico and their violent drug cartels...and we'll see how the British crime rate does with that...

 

[2aguy]

Here is more information on British gun violence...and the way they compute their number...it is different than we do...

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

The homicide rate only began falling when there was a large increase in the number of police officers during 2003 and 2004. Despite the huge increase in the number of police, the murder rate still remained slightly higher than the immediate pre-ban rate.

As an aside, homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries. Their homicide numbers “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise” (Report to Parliament). The problem isn’t just that it reduces the recorded homicide rate in England and Wales,

Changes their numbers compared to ours quite a bit...


For example if we computed our homicide rate the way Britain does...

but what would a similar reduction mean for the US.

If taken literally, a simple comparison can be made. In 2012, the US murder rate was 4.7 per 100,000, a total of14,827. Arrests amounted to only 7,133. Using only people who were arrested (not just convicted) would lower the US murder rate to 2.26 per 100,000.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's easy to be dispassionate about curtailing the rights of others when you have never been privileged to have those same rights.

Oh, we have far, far, far greater rights in Europe than you possibly ever will do in the US.

For instance, we have the right to go to work in saftey. The right to go to school in safety.

And these aren't empty claims - there is clear, obvious statistical proof that a European school is safer than an American one.

So you choose to give up liberty for safety.

You know what Americans think about that right?

At this point it's a cultural difference and one that I do not want to try to change

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's easy to be dispassionate about curtailing the rights of others when you have never been privileged to have those same rights.

Oh, we have far, far, far greater rights in Europe than you possibly ever will do in the US.

For instance, we have the right to go to work in saftey. The right to go to school in safety.

And these aren't empty claims - there is clear, obvious statistical proof that a European school is safer than an American one.

We also have the right to arm ourselves to protect ourselves and more importantly our loved ones if some piece of shit decides to do us harm

And don't conflate the whole mass shooting thing. It gets old. Les than 1% of all gun murders are mass shootings

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's easy to be dispassionate about curtailing the rights of others when you have never been privileged to have those same rights.

Oh, we have far, far, far greater rights in Europe than you possibly ever will do in the US.

For instance, we have the right to go to work in saftey. The right to go to school in safety.

And these aren't empty claims - there is clear, obvious statistical proof that a European school is safer than an American one.

We also have the right to arm ourselves to protect ourselves and more importantly our loved ones if some piece of shit decides to do us harm. Where in Europe you have the right to get arrested for speaking aloud if the powers that be don't like what you say.

And don't conflate the whole mass shooting thing. It gets old. Les than 1% of all gun murders are mass shootings

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's sad that humans have to act in a way that we must defend ourselves..

Humans have always acted that way and will always act that way

Sure. With that attitude.

Is it wrong?

People have been murdering other people for as long as we have existed.

I see nothing that will change that in our future

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Saigon said:

They must be Identical? Really?

Yes, really.

The United States is unique – it has a unique history, culture, and demographic; the United States is nothing like countries in Europe or the Commonwealth, which is why such comparisons fail and are invalid.

The United States is considerably more violent than countries in Europe or the Commonwealth, where violence is perceived as a legitimate means of conflict resolution. Unlike countries in Europe or the Commonwealth the United States does a poor job of addressing mental health issues and affording its citizens comprehensive mental healthcare.

Consequently, gun violence in the United States is merely a symptom of much more serious, complex problems and issues that won't be resolved with more gun control.

 

[Unkotare]

The Europeans abandoned freedom and castrated themselves for the sake of a political entity that does nothing but regulate every conceivable facet of life and combat democracy. In typical fashion, they try to put on airs of arrogance when talking to anyone but themselves about this, and are too weak to stand up for what once made them the dominant culture in the world. They will pretend their shackles are gorgeous diamond bracelets when someone looks over the fence, but as soon as they are alone they go back to meekly doing whatever they are fucking TOLD to do by faceless, un-elected bureaucrats. It's too bad; real humans used to live there. Now all they've got is a history of bloody self-destruction and a future of pointless submission.

 

[Brain357]

So, there are people who wish there were no guns...anywhere, thinking that this would be a good thing. Of course, they are wrong. Guns allow the physically weaker, the individual vs. the many, the peaceful vs. the more aggressive have a chance at surviving a violent attack...this is one case of that...5 strong, athletic men, savagely beat one man when he stands up to them....over offensive remarks the 5 made about his girlfriend...

5 Division II Football Players Assault Man Leave Him Brain Damaged The Daily Caller

According to witnesses, 30-year old Lewis Campbell confronted the young men after one of them said something to his girlfriend. The football players waited for Campbell to leave Spuds before jumping him and repeatedly stomping on his head. Campbell quickly lost consciousness, and the five fled the scene, yelling, “Football strong!”

It is a good thing that no one involved had a gun...say...the man or his girlfriend...it is much better that the man be beaten and brain damaged....right?

There are countries with very few guns that have less crime than the country with the most guns. Your theory is silly.

 

[Brain357]

Okay, then your turn...tell me....why is it that Russia, with almost no guns in private hands has a murder rate far higher than we do...dittos all the latin American countries...?

Genocide...Ruwanda...committed genocide with little or no use of guns, most deaths from machete attacks...

The other guys are right...most of American gun violence...about 80% is confined to democrat controlled inner cities where welfare policies have created breeding grounds for drug gangs....

Fix the gang problem...and you fix the gun problem...if you remove murders by gang members our murder rate drops to about 1.4 per 100,000...

And keep in mind...guns save more lives than they take in this country...

Russia has had tons of political and economic instability. The homicide rate has been dropping like a rock as they become more stable. You should explain how it is dropping without guns.

 

[Brain357]

Rik -

Finland has a high level of gun ownership.

Finland has a high level of gun-related homicides.

It's not difficult stuff, this.

Yes Finland has the most guns in Scandinavia and also the highest homicide rates.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Time for another run at this chart from the Washington Post (not that it is a US source)...again, so far not one single poster has been able to stand to comment on it.

The only stats that count are the FBI numbers

And just what is "gun related"? a person is either killed by a gun or not killed by a gun.

It seems now is a good time to mention that the UK doesn't count a crime as a murder unless there has been an actual conviction. How many other countries do that as well?

But as I said at this point we are talking cultural differences and America is NOT Europe nor do we want to be.

SO you foreigners can talk all you want, preach all you want but do you really think we are going to listen?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

So, there are people who wish there were no guns...anywhere, thinking that this would be a good thing. Of course, they are wrong. Guns allow the physically weaker, the individual vs. the many, the peaceful vs. the more aggressive have a chance at surviving a violent attack...this is one case of that...5 strong, athletic men, savagely beat one man when he stands up to them....over offensive remarks the 5 made about his girlfriend...

5 Division II Football Players Assault Man Leave Him Brain Damaged The Daily Caller

According to witnesses, 30-year old Lewis Campbell confronted the young men after one of them said something to his girlfriend. The football players waited for Campbell to leave Spuds before jumping him and repeatedly stomping on his head. Campbell quickly lost consciousness, and the five fled the scene, yelling, “Football strong!”

It is a good thing that no one involved had a gun...say...the man or his girlfriend...it is much better that the man be beaten and brain damaged....right?

There are countries with very few guns that have less crime than the country with the most guns. Your theory is silly.

Both arguments fail.

Guns have little to do with either an increase in crime or its decrease.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Still you fail to address the positive aspects of gun ownership...the 1.4 million times,each year American guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime....which is far more times than guns are used to murder people...

I'm ignoring it because I can't see that it has anything to do with the topic.

Yes, of course there are occasions when a gun will save a life - there is no question there.

But given the US has 138 times the gun-murder rate of the UK, it is also fairly clear that there are 138 occasions when it does the opposite.

In other words - it makes no sense to claim that gun saves lives, when countries with LESS guns have LESS murders.

Just as it makes no sense to claim that fewer guns in a given society results in fewer murders.

Should the United States ever deal successfully with its citizens' mental health issues, and develop a social philosophy where violence is perceived as not being a legitimate means of conflict resolution, then fewer murders will likely occur, with the number of guns in American society and their availability unchanged.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It's easy to be dispassionate about curtailing the rights of others when you have never been privileged to have those same rights.

Oh, we have far, far, far greater rights in Europe than you possibly ever will do in the US.

For instance, we have the right to go to work in saftey. The right to go to school in safety.

And these aren't empty claims - there is clear, obvious statistical proof that a European school is safer than an American one.

But there is no statistical proof that implementing European-like gun control measures will make American schools just as safe.

And yet again: the fundamental premise of your argument fails as one cannot compare European schools to American schools, or European societies to American society, for that matter.

Guns are a permanent factor of American society, they will always be readily available regardless their legal restrictions and regulation. Firearms rarely 'wear out,' for the most part firearms only cease to function as a result of willful abuse or neglect. I have firearms some 60 to 70 years old that are accurate and function perfectly. Even if the manufacture and sale of firearms were stopped today and possession prohibited the current inventory of guns would remain viable for decades to come.

The only way for Americans to seriously and successfully address the issue of gun violence is to address the root cause of that violence, having little to do with the number or availability of guns.

 

[RKMBrown]

Here is more information on British gun violence...and the way they compute their number...it is different than we do...

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

The homicide rate only began falling when there was a large increase in the number of police officers during 2003 and 2004. Despite the huge increase in the number of police, the murder rate still remained slightly higher than the immediate pre-ban rate.

As an aside, homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries. Their homicide numbers “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise” (Report to Parliament). The problem isn’t just that it reduces the recorded homicide rate in England and Wales,

Changes their numbers compared to ours quite a bit...


For example if we computed our homicide rate the way Britain does...

but what would a similar reduction mean for the US.

If taken literally, a simple comparison can be made. In 2012, the US murder rate was 4.7 per 100,000, a total of14,827. Arrests amounted to only 7,133. Using only people who were arrested (not just convicted) would lower the US murder rate to 2.26 per 100,000.

Notice how the UK guy runs for the hills when you point out the BS.

 

[Brain357]

So, there are people who wish there were no guns...anywhere, thinking that this would be a good thing. Of course, they are wrong. Guns allow the physically weaker, the individual vs. the many, the peaceful vs. the more aggressive have a chance at surviving a violent attack...this is one case of that...5 strong, athletic men, savagely beat one man when he stands up to them....over offensive remarks the 5 made about his girlfriend...

5 Division II Football Players Assault Man Leave Him Brain Damaged The Daily Caller

According to witnesses, 30-year old Lewis Campbell confronted the young men after one of them said something to his girlfriend. The football players waited for Campbell to leave Spuds before jumping him and repeatedly stomping on his head. Campbell quickly lost consciousness, and the five fled the scene, yelling, “Football strong!”

It is a good thing that no one involved had a gun...say...the man or his girlfriend...it is much better that the man be beaten and brain damaged....right?

There are countries with very few guns that have less crime than the country with the most guns. Your theory is silly.

Both arguments fail.

Guns have little to do with either an increase in crime or its decrease.

That was my point.

 

[Toro]

And a higher murder rate.

Canada's homicide rate in 2010 was 1.62 per 100,000. Idaho's homicide rate in 2010 was 1.4. Neighboring Alberta's homicide rate in 2010 was 2.07.

We were talking about a correlation between levels of gun ownership and homicide.

That's one year, which was the third lowest in over 40 years. The 15 year average in Idaho is ~2.4/100k v ~1.7/100k in Canada.

Idaho Crime Rates 1960 - 2012

The reason why I use 15 years is because that's the longest I could find for Canada.

Firearm rights have been expanding over time. The rates from 15 years ago are pretty meaningless. The deterrence effect is diminished when we go back so far. As more people become gun owners "politeness" increases. The last 5 years in Idaho have had lower rates than most all years prior, plus we're dealing with a small population base so year by year spikes of a few additional murders are going to show significant change in the state-wide statistics.

That's why statisticians don't use a single year.

Gun ownership has always been easier in Idaho than it has been in Canada. And the murder rate has almost always been significantly higher.

More Canadian data for 2010 broken down by province.

Nova Scotia = 2.22
Ontario= 1.43
Manitoba = 3.64
Saskatchewan = 3.26
British Columbia = 1.83
Yukon = 2.89
NWT = 2.28
Nunavit = 18.28 (not a typo)

Idaho, again, was 1.4.

Again, that's one single year. Over time, the murder rate has been higher in white, gun-toting Idaho than in Canada.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Guns per capita & homicides per capita:

USA : 90 guns per 100 people
Holland: 3.9

USA 4.7
Holland: 0.9

And another myth bites the dust.....

What's Holland's black population? I'll wait.