Debate Now Illegals and Social Security. Good thing? Bad thing?

[Derideo_Te]

So why issue social security numbers at all? What is the purpose of an executive order authorizing illegals to receive social security numbers if they can't use them to collect social security?

They need a legitimate SSN in order to obtain work. Anyone who has ever been an employer should know that. In fact anyone who has ever been employed should know it too since all legitimate employers ask for an SSN in order to be able to file payroll taxes with the IRS.

No they don't. All they need is something similar to a green card if they are not going to be eligible for social security.

People with Visas still need an SSN in order to be able to get employment.

http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-9.pdf

Hiring Employees

 

[Derideo_Te]

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

 

[Derideo_Te]

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

.
I beg to disagree. Does your automobile insurance contract look anything like your contract with the State about your retirement income?

It does not.

Your turn.

.

See post #70.

I stand corrected. It is a Universal Life Policy involuntarily taken out with a bankrupt insurance company who is spending the premiums faster than the liabilities are accruing.

The end game is the same. And any immigrant who signs up for the con is a moron.

.

It is not a universal life policy, It is more like an annuity policy. Yes, you pay in premiums while you are working and it provides you with a guaranteed income when you retire. If you live beyond the anticipated mortality you do better than if you don't. Life doesn't come with any guarantees.

 

[Foxfyre]

So why issue social security numbers at all? What is the purpose of an executive order authorizing illegals to receive social security numbers if they can't use them to collect social security?

They need a legitimate SSN in order to obtain work. Anyone who has ever been an employer should know that. In fact anyone who has ever been employed should know it too since all legitimate employers ask for an SSN in order to be able to file payroll taxes with the IRS.

No they don't. All they need is something similar to a green card if they are not going to be eligible for social security.

People with Visas still need an SSN in order to be able to get employment.

http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-9.pdf

Hiring Employees

All the President has to do is say the temporary green card issued makes the person legal to hire and its a done deal. If he can override the social security laws and the immigration laws via executie order, that is a simple fix.

 

[Derideo_Te]

So why issue social security numbers at all? What is the purpose of an executive order authorizing illegals to receive social security numbers if they can't use them to collect social security?

They need a legitimate SSN in order to obtain work. Anyone who has ever been an employer should know that. In fact anyone who has ever been employed should know it too since all legitimate employers ask for an SSN in order to be able to file payroll taxes with the IRS.

No they don't. All they need is something similar to a green card if they are not going to be eligible for social security.

People with Visas still need an SSN in order to be able to get employment.

http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/form/i-9.pdf

Hiring Employees

All the President has to do is say the temporary green card issued makes the person legal to hire and its a done deal. If he can override the social security laws and the immigration laws via executie order, that is a simple fix.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[Foxfyre]

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

You can spam 50 pages with endless posts copied and pasted from other sources and it won't make social security into an 'insurance policy.' If you really want to understand the difference, there is a really good explanation here:
What is the difference between insurance and entitlement - Avvo.com

Reported for violation of SDZ OP no ad hom rule.

Link does not address Social Security Act therefore it is irrelevant.

Again I have not committed any ad hominem post and have not commented on you personally in any way. Every post has addressed what you have posted and have drawn no conclusions or given any opinions about you personally in any way from it.

And my post specifically addressed your statement that social security is insurance. It isn't since the technical definition of insurance is compensation for an incurred loss or damages and is no way based on need. Social Security is not based on loss or damages and for the young is strictly based on need.

If you need evidence that Social Security is an entitlement here it is:
Understanding Supplemental Security Income SSI -- Social Security Entitlement

 

[Derideo_Te]

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

You can spam 50 pages with endless posts copied and pasted from other sources and it won't make social security into an 'insurance policy.' If you really want to understand the difference, there is a really good explanation here:
What is the difference between insurance and entitlement - Avvo.com

Reported for violation of SDZ OP no ad hom rule.

Link does not address Social Security Act therefore it is irrelevant.

Again I have not committed any ad hominem post and have not commented on you personally in any way. Every post has addressed what you have posted and have drawn no conclusions or given any opinions about you personally in any way from it.

And my post specifically addressed your statement that social security is insurance. It isn't since the technical definition of insurance is compensation for an incurred loss or damages and is no way based on need. Social Security is not based on loss or damages and for the young is strictly based on need.

If you need evidence that Social Security is an entitlement here it is:
Understanding Supplemental Security Income SSI -- Social Security Entitlement

Lying about me "spamming" when I am providing credible sources to substantiate my position is an ad hom. Since you had already been warned once in this thread I reported it.

Secondly there is more than one kind of insurance. Social Security fits the definition of a Life Annuity Insurance.

Life annuity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

A life annuity is a financial contract in the form of an insurance product according to which a seller (issuer) — typically a financial institution such as a life insurance company — makes a series of future payments to a buyer (annuitant) in exchange for the immediate payment of a lump sum (single-payment annuity) or a series of regular payments (regular-payment annuity), prior to the onset of the annuity.

The payment stream from the issuer to the annuitant has an unknown duration based principally upon the date of death of the annuitant. At this point the contract will terminate and the remainder of the fund accumulated is forfeited unless there are other annuitants or beneficiaries in the contract. Thus a life annuity is a form of longevity insurance, where the uncertainty of an individual's lifespan is transferred from the individual to the insurer, which reduces its own uncertainty by pooling many clients. Annuities can be purchased to provide an income during retirement,​

The SSA page you linked to was titled;

Understanding Supplemental Security Income Social Security Entitlement

Supplemental Security Income AKA SSI is based on a disability that you might encounter prior to full retirement age or as a benefit that your survivors might be eligible to receive if you have earned sufficient credits.

 

[RKMBrown]

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

You don't buy insurance as an "investment". In this instance SS is insurance against ending up in abject poverty when you are too old to work.

 

[Ravi]

They have to be US citizens or legal residents to collect the benefits.

Then provide some evidence that the sources I have provided are wrong. Otherwise I will have to consider those informed opinions to have more credibility than simply saying over and over that it isn't so.

I already did pages ago when I pointed out that on the SSA website it is stated that one must be a legal citizen or permanent resident to collect SS benefits.

The blurb you posted pretends to be about illegal immigrants but it isn't. It is about alien workers, those that came here and worked legally on a visa as a non-immigrant. You can read about the program here. International Programs - U.S. International Social Security Agreements

They are not what you are calling illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants cannot collect benefits unless and until they become legal citizens or permanent residents.

In case you haven't noticed, our President doesn't seem to be much concerned about following the law and has no reluctance to ignore laws he doesn't like and create new laws that he wants, most especially in the case of illegal immigration. I say that as a statement of fact and am placing no qualification on it as a good thing or bad thing as that is what this discussion is all about.

So even if members of Congress can't say whether his latest executive orders will grant social security benefits to illegals, however you define those illegals, and even if you ignore my posted discussion on whether social security numbers would enable illegals to legally work, the evidence is still out on whether illegals who are not currently eligible for social security will become eligible via the President's executive order.

there is absolutely nothing in the executive order about collecting SS benefits. Nothing. This is all in your head. EVEN IF illegals could work legally, they still cannot collect the benefits until and unless they become legal.

So why issue social security numbers at all? What is the purpose of an executive order authorizing illegals to receive social security numbers if they can't use them to collect social security?

This article does not specifically address illegals drawing social security benefits, but the suggestion is there that this would be possible by those receiving social security numbers:
Veteran U.S. senator to IRS No tax breaks for undocumented immigrants Fox News Latino

This article from the Daily Beast, a publication that consistently endorses the President's policies, also strongly suggests that those receiving the social security numbers under the President's executive order will be eligible to receive social security:
How Immigrants Will Save Social Security - The Daily Beast


And this article from the WashingtonExaminer, pretty much at the opposite end of the political spectrum, also supports that position:
Executive action allows illegal immigrants to raid Social Security WashingtonExaminer.com

You can't work without a tax id and employers can't withhold without one.

And the daily beast is mostly right wing.

 

[Ravi]

Why not read the actual source first instead of just the spin from a biased site?

Under Executive Action Immigrants Are Entitled To Social Security Benefits The Two-Way NPR

Katherine Vargas, a White House spokeswoman, told us in an email that once immigrants register under deferred action, they become taxpayers, contributing their "fair share into Social Security and Medicare."

"And only after they've paid taxes for over a decade will they become eligible for Social Security," Vargas wrote. "As taxpayers, deferred action recipients will pay into these systems and receive the same benefits on these issues as other taxpayers."

(It's worth pointing out that all taxpayers have to work for at least a decade to receive benefits.)

Vargas added that immigrants protected under Obama's plan will not receive other federal benefits such as welfare, food stamps, Medicaid or benefits under the Affordable Care Act.​

If they never contributed to SS they won't receive any benefits.

And unless they meet the minimum requirement of working and contributing for 10 years they won't receive any benefits.

So it looks like they will be paying their own way just like everyone else who receives SS does.

What difference does it make if they are paying taxes and making contributions?

How many of them are going to complain about "my money" being spent to provide healthcare for anyone else? Zero?

Sounds like they would just be grateful to be working hard and earning a living just like every other hardworking working American who doesn't feel "entitled" to what the government provides without having to pay taxes for it.

ROFL what a moronic point to the OP. Just because they have a SS number does not mean they are paying in. Many people receive checks that did not pay a dime for SS. Many people receive checks for their children who did not pay into it. The SS system is broken. This will bankrupt the system even faster.

If the spouse (or parent) paid into the system it is possible to get survivor benefits. Is that what you are talking about?

Yes... For example, if Obama decides to credit 1.5 years of work that was paid into SS in the past using a fraudulent SS number, then the illegal children of any illegal that dies this year who had 1.5years of 5k a year income in the USA, whether they are currently in some other country or not, can file a claim for survivor benefits.

And if Obama declares the sky is green then it must be green.

 

[Ravi]

.
'THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED: If it is true that illegals will be eligible for social security benefits, are you okay with persons in the country illegally being able to draw social security benefits even thought they knowingly worked with a fraudulent social security number? Why or why not?'

If it is true that illegals will be eligible to become slaves of the State, I would hope they would decline to participate. The smart ones are under the radar.

That is my opinion anyway.
.

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

Remember when Dubya bragged that most black Americans would die before they collected what they put in?

 

[Ravi]

It would be interesting to see how many illegals would apply for those 'legal' social security numbers since they aren't prosecuted now for rampant tax evasion. I wonder how many would make themselves easier targets for the tax code?

There is always an underground cash economy. Everywhere. Why would Jose' from Honduras want to screw up a good deal? Why apply for anything?

The smart immigrants know that they can make more money, and invest it as they see fit, if they never apply to pay into the system in the first place.

Do you expect to ever see the money you have paid into the system? I don't.

We are the fools...In my opinion anyway.

.

.

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

You can spam 50 pages with endless posts copied and pasted from other sources and it won't make social security into an 'insurance policy.' If you really want to understand the difference, there is a really good explanation here:
What is the difference between insurance and entitlement - Avvo.com

More personal attacks

 

[Ravi]

Social Security is not an "investment", it is insurance.

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

Link? I know a couple of old people that would starve without it.

 

[Ravi]

I owe you some thanks, DT. Stupid ipad!

 

[RKMBrown]

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

You don't buy insurance as an "investment". In this instance SS is insurance against ending up in abject poverty when you are too old to work.

Incorrect. SS is a government mandated policy for taking 15% of your lifetime earnings to make sure you have to live in abject poverty when you are too old to work. If you take that same 15% and put in a 401k with only "safe" investments, you will then have enough money to live high on the hog in retirement.

 

[RKMBrown]

It is neither an investment nor insurance. It is an entitlement that is partially funded by mandatory taxes.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

Link? I know a couple of old people that would starve without it.

Yes I agree, some people are too stupid to save for retirement and have to be forced to hand over 15% of their income for the chance that they might get a small portion of that back in retirement.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Social Security United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance(OASDI) federal program.[1] The original Social Security Act (1935)[2] and the current version of the Act, as amended,[3] encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. ​

Then there is the language of the Social Security Act itself;

Social Security History II

TITLE II-FEDERAL OLD-AGE BENEFITS OLD-AGE RESERVE ACCOUNT

Section 201. (a) There is hereby created an account in the Treasury of the United States to be known as the Old-Age Reserve Account hereinafter in this title called the Account. There is hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Account for each fiscal year, beginning with the fiscal year ending June 30, 1937, an amount sufficient as an annual premium to provide for the payments required under this title, such amount to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 per centum per annum compounded annually. The Secretary of the Treasury shall submit annually to the Bureau of the Budget an estimate of the appropriations to be made to the Account.

OLD-AGE BENEFIT PAYMENTS

SEC. 202. (a) Every qualified individual (as defined in section 210) shall be entitled to receive, with respect to the period beginning on the date he attains the age of sixty-five, or on January 1, 1942, whichever is the later, and ending on the date of his death, an old-age benefit (payable as nearly as practicable in equal monthly installments) as follows: ​

Note the use of standard insurance industry terminology such as "actuarial principles", "tables of mortality", "qualified individual", "benefit", "payable" and "monthly installments".

Funding is irrelevant. The concept of Social Security is as an Insurance program designed to ensure that the elderly don't end up in abject poverty when they can no longer work. The reason that it is mandatory is because it doesn't work otherwise.

Calling it an "entitlement" is disingenuous. No one is "entitled" to social security unless they, or their parent or spouse, has met the requirements for receiving benefits.

Social Security is one of the longest running and successful programs of it's kind in the civilized world.

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

You don't buy insurance as an "investment". In this instance SS is insurance against ending up in abject poverty when you are too old to work.

Incorrect. SS is a government mandated policy for taking 15% of your lifetime earnings to make sure you have to live in abject poverty when you are too old to work. If you take that same 15% and put in a 401k with only "safe" investments, you will then have enough money to live high on the hog in retirement.

Except that doesn't happen in reality for the majority of the population.

 

[RKMBrown]

ROFL... SS is a so so program for the poor, but a horrible program for the middle and up classes. SS is a horrible return on investment for the vast majority of people. Further, the people who are benefiting from SS only had to pay 1/2 as much as a percentage of income as current generations.

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

You don't buy insurance as an "investment". In this instance SS is insurance against ending up in abject poverty when you are too old to work.

Incorrect. SS is a government mandated policy for taking 15% of your lifetime earnings to make sure you have to live in abject poverty when you are too old to work. If you take that same 15% and put in a 401k with only "safe" investments, you will then have enough money to live high on the hog in retirement.

Except that doesn't happen in reality for the majority of the population.

Which part doesn't happen, the taking of 15% of your lifetime earnings? Are you referring to priests, mormons, and federal employees that didn't have to piss their money away on SS?

Or are you trying to make out that SS checks are enough to get people out of poverty?

Or are you trying to intimate that SS is better return on deposits than a safe 401k choice?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Let me repeat that SS is not an investment program, it is an insurance program.

Yes, and let me repeat, SS insurance is a poor investment for the vast majority of the people who pay into it.

You don't buy insurance as an "investment". In this instance SS is insurance against ending up in abject poverty when you are too old to work.

Incorrect. SS is a government mandated policy for taking 15% of your lifetime earnings to make sure you have to live in abject poverty when you are too old to work. If you take that same 15% and put in a 401k with only "safe" investments, you will then have enough money to live high on the hog in retirement.

Except that doesn't happen in reality for the majority of the population.

Which part doesn't happen, the taking of 15% of your lifetime earnings? Are you referring to priests, mormons, and federal employees that didn't have to piss their money away on SS?

Or are you trying to make out that SS checks are enough to get people out of poverty?

Or are you trying to intimate that SS is better return on deposits than a safe 401k choice?

There is no such thing as a "safe 401k choice". The average 401k is nowhere even close to providing people with the income they will need in retirement.

The Average American Has This Much Saved in a 401 k -- How Do You Compare

Millions of hardworking retirees are going to have to live off social security as their primary source of income. Not because they did anything wrong but because they were never qualified to know how to invest and save for their own retirements and how to avoid the predations of the Wall Street Casino Bosses.