If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war

[toomuchtime_]

Putin isn't Hitler. He doesn't have nearly the professionalism or effectiveness of his military, if the best he can do is hold few enclaves predominately populated by Russians.

The only reason why this is a concern is Putin has nukes, that he might use if his back is against the wall. Our best hope is that he dies soon and that whoever succeeds him has the good sense to not throw good rubles after bad.

So you are saying Putin is just a Hitler wannabe.

 

[Markle]

Again, nothing but bullshit from you. Before Russia's 2008 invasion of Georgia, there was little interest in joining NATO, but after the invasion, there was a sharp increase in support for joining NATO and Ukraine applied. It was clear to eveyone, except perhaps a Putinhead like yourself, that Ukraine would be next, and, in that context, Bush supported Ukraine's application.

While it is true that Ukraine did not then meet the minimum criteria to join, in order the rules could have been bent by issuing a provisional invitation that would list the changes that had to be made by a certain date to prevent a Russian invasion. If, in fact, this had been done, as Bush suggested, there would have been no 2014 invasion and no 2022 invasion.

After the 2008 Russian invasion of Georgia, the Ukrainian people and government wanted to join NATO and no one in NATO wanted to see a Russian invasion of Ukraine, so it would have made sense to find a way to include Ukraine in NATO to stop Russia from invading it. Without a doubt the world would be a better place today if this had been done.

Of what strategic interest is Ukraine to the United States?

 

[Mac-7]

He was elected President of the Russian Federation, and Ukraine has not been sovereign since at least the 2014 Western instigated Coup, it's a US puppet and Dictatorship.

Wrong

Ukraine is independent from russia no matter how you try to spin it otherwise

 

[toomuchtime_]

Of what strategic interest is Ukraine to the United States?

It is the best place to stop Russian imperialism today. It would have been better to stop Russian imperialism in Georgia in 2008, but no point to crying over missed opportunities.

 

[Mac-7]

Am I supposed to lose sleep if some *** who has long since lost dignity and decency doesn't response? If an American starts blabbering about democracy, constitution or freedom, sure as hell he's a deviant of some kind.

Youre the one blabbering bullshit

 

[luiza]

Again, nothing but bullshit from you. Before Russia's 2008 invasion of Georgia, there was little interest in joining NATO, but after the invasion, there was a sharp increase in support for joining NATO and Ukraine applied. It was clear to eveyone, except perhaps a Putinhead like yourself, that Ukraine would be next, and, in that context, Bush supported Ukraine's application.

While it is true that Ukraine did not then meet the minimum criteria to join, in order the rules could have been bent by issuing a provisional invitation that would list the changes that had to be made by a certain date to prevent a Russian invasion. If, in fact, this had been done, as Bush suggested, there would have been no 2014 invasion and no 2022 invasion.

After the 2008 Russian invasion of Georgia, the Ukrainian people and government wanted to join NATO and no one in NATO wanted to see a Russian invasion of Ukraine, so it would have made sense to find a way to include Ukraine in NATO to stop Russia from invading it. Without a doubt the world would be a better place today if this had been done.

Quite remarkable for me to find such a true Gullible and giving a live performance of the BS Symphony . What exactly are your sources ? Where and How did life go so wrong for you that you began to live on Comfort Fake News ?Give us your sources . rofl .

 

[Markle]

It is the best place to stop Russian imperialism today. It would have been better to stop Russian imperialism in Georgia in 2008, but no point to crying over missed opportunities.

So you agree that Ukraine is of no strategic interest to the United States. Isn't Ukraine the problem of Europe?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Again, nothing but bullshit from you. Before Russia's 2008 invasion of Georgia, there was little interest in joining NATO, but after the invasion, there was a sharp increase in support for joining NATO and Ukraine applied. It was clear to eveyone, except perhaps a Putinhead like yourself, that Ukraine would be next, and, in that context, Bush supported Ukraine's application….

I’m not going to reply to all your points, as my previous comments and the excellent links I provided already adequately do that. Neither do I care to respond to your tone and personal insults.

I will merely point out that you yourself admit that …

“Before Russia’s 2008 invasion of Georgia [in August 2008] there was little [Ukrainian] interest in joining NATO, but after the invasion there was a sharp increase in support for joining NATO and Ukraine applied.”

Unfortunately for your argument, the Bush Administration pushed the line that Ukraine should — even used the term “will” — join NATO … before the Bucharest NATO Conference in April 2008, when even you admit “there was little interest in joining NATO” among the people of Ukraine.

I might add that the pro-U.S. Georgian government of that time actually initiated the hostilities with official Russian peacekeepers in its breakaway regions, which resulted in Georgia’s embarrassing defeat during the very short-lived Russian “invasion.”

Fifteen years later, here we are, the present government of Georgia as corrupt as ever, farther from joining NATO than in 2008, and sadly much more under the influence of Russia than before. But at least it hasn’t been devastated by war.

The government in Georgia is apparently less democratic and more corrupt than the Ukrainian Yanukovych government that was brought back into power in 2010 in a “fair vote” according to all the official Western observers. That government also of course was elected on a program of opposing joining NATO or any Russian military alliance either — before being overthrown in Kiev by the “Maidan Revolution.”

 

[toomuchtime_]

So you agree that Ukraine is of no strategic interest to the United States. Isn't Ukraine the problem of Europe?

Russian imperialism is a problem for the whole world.

 

[Desperado]

The best way to stop this war is a 'draw'. After which the both sides would declare some sort of victory and the active fighting would stop for years. The sooner it happens, the better.

Invoking the Korean Model

 

[Markle]

Russian imperialism is a problem for the whole world.

Wrong focus. You're living in the 60s.

China is a major problem for the whole world.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I’m not going to reply to all your points, as my previous comments and the excellent links I provided already adequately do that. Neither to I care to respond to your tone and personal insults.

I will merely point out that you yourself admit that …

“Before Russia’s 2008 invasion of Georgia [in August 2008] there was little [Ukrainian] interest in joining NATO, but after the invasion there was a sharp increase in support for joining NATO and Ukraine applied.”

Unfortunately for your argument, the Bush Administration pushed the line that Ukraine should — even used the term “will” — join NATO … before the Bucharest NATO Conference in April 2008, when even you admit “there was little interest in joining NATO” among the people of Ukraine.

I might add that the pro-U.S. Georgian government of that time actually initiated the hostilities with official Russian peacekeepers in its breakaway regions, which resulted in Georgia’s embarrassing defeat during the very short-lived Russian “invasion.”

Fifteen years later, here we are, the present government of Georgia as corrupt as ever, farther from joining NATO than in 2008, and sadly much more under the influence of Russia than before. But at least it hasn’t been devastated by war.

The government in Georgia is apparently less democratic and more corrupt than the Ukrainian Yanukovych government that was brought back into power in 2010 in a “fair vote” according to all the official Western observers. That government also of course was elected on a program of opposing joining NATO or any Russian military alliance either — before being overthrown in Kiev by the “Maidan Revolution.”

Ok, you are a solid Putinhead, but no one is paying attention to Putin's bullshit. Bush understood, as did nearly the whole rest of the world, that the Russian invasion of Georgia was imminent, even if the fact had not yet registered in the minds of the Ukrainians, and he understood the only way to prevent Putin from invading Ukraine was to admit it to NATO, and as soon as the invasion occurred, the Ukrainians agreed. The fact remains that if NATO had found a way to admit Ukraine in 2008, the 2014 and 2022 Russian invasions of Ukraine would not have taken place, and if NATO had found a way to admit Georgia much sooner, the Russian invasion of Georgia would not have taken place.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

JohnDB
Well, something's not right in the West. Before Uks used to shoot down all plus one missiles Russians launched, now they are down to 14 out of 31. What gives?

Are the Poles still chomping at the bit?

They sold the missiles to Mexican drug cartels

 

[toomuchtime_]

Wrong focus. You're living in the 60s.

China is a major problem for the whole world.

They are both major problems for the whole world.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Love it!

Putin: the last man standing in the way of BlackRock's Ukrainian land grab.

 

[skye]

 

[themirrorthief]

Ok, you are a solid Putinhead, but no one is paying attention to Putin's bullshit. Bush understood, as did nearly the whole rest of the world, that the Russian invasion of Georgia was imminent, even if the fact had not yet registered in the minds of the Ukrainians, and he understood the only way to prevent Putin from invading Ukraine was to admit it to NATO, and as soon as the invasion occurred, the Ukrainians agreed. The fact remains that if NATO had found a way to admit Ukraine in 2008, the 2014 and 2022 Russian invasions of Ukraine would not have taken place, and if NATO had found a way to admit Georgia much sooner, the Russian invasion of Georgia would not have taken place.

get woke idiots....the ukraine war is a scam cooked up between russia and china....china pays russia to go to war so idiot biden spends all of usas treasure, ammo, equipment...etc....then china will strike after we have wasted it all on the pointless ukraine war which should be funded by ******* NATO....cmon man get woke

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Ok, you are a solid Putinhead, but no one is paying attention to Putin's bullshit….

God, you can say some stupid things! With all the people in the U.S. who now don’t trust our own government and actually support the lies and distortions of the Trumps and Putins of the world, you go out of your way to attack and insult … me.

I am probably among the best and most effective opponents of Putin’s invasion of Ukraine here on USMB, because I try to tell the whole truth and not just repeat U.S. neo-liberal & neo-con “Atlantic Council” propaganda. I praise the Biden Administration for having successfully held Europe together and strengthened NATO after Putin’s recent bloody invasion of Ukraine despite some longtime errors of U.S. foreign policy. I support U.S. & NATO military / economic aid to Ukraine to help Ukrainians protect their sovereignty and drive back the Russians.

From Vietnam to the U.S. invasions / occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, to our many foreign policy errors in South and Central America, real socially progressive patriots have not feared to criticize U.S. policy abroad just to follow some ”party line” as you do.

By speaking to me as if I support Putin’s bloody invasion of Ukraine, and calling me a “Putinhead,” you are about as clever and funny as a Trump cultist MAGA Republican.

I talk about what I believe are some historical errors the U.S. committed under both parties in the past precisely to do my part to strengthen our own democracy, to help less well-informed Americans understand the complicated reality behind this war. There were many factors that led to this tragic war — which may prove to be “never ending” unless it is resolved by a presently unpalatable “land for peace” agreement.

Read the comments here and listen to the zeitgeist in our divided country. Blind partisan cheerleading and taking an ultra-partisan position on every point in dispute is only likely to help demagogues like Donald Trump, who better simplify all things and always promise quick and easy answers.

As an internationalist, a social democrat, a retired working-class union man, as an anti-imperialist and an experienced activist who as far back as the Vietnam War fought the good fight, I am not about to stop explaining reality to gullible Americans just because that reality is complex. You may not be a gullible Trump supporter like so many here, but you don’t know half as much as you think you do.

That is probably why you must resort to insulting me and never think to question one-sided and unconvincing arguments you find in American neo-liberal journals.

 

[Markle]

They are both major problems for the whole world.

Russia is a problem insofar as they have hundreds if not thousands of nuclear weapons and a former KGB operative as its president.

China is like a metastasized cancer in the body of the world. China does not plan for the future in four-year segments as we do, they plan decades into the future. Anyone who does not view them as a critical threat to the world in the near future is a fool.

 

[JoeB131]

So you are saying Putin is just a Hitler wannabe.

I wouldn't even go that far.


Putin wants to restore the USSR.
Hitler wanted to conquer all of Europe.

Putin is wrong, but he's not Hitler.