If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[The Rabbi]

NIH funds help lead to medical advances - m.JSOnline.com

There's the link.

Taxpayer money funds most advances in this country, not private companies.

So is that socialism?

The linkl is not proof of anything, other than you cannot analyze evidence. It is plea for continued funding. Nothing more.
Again, your statement is unsupported.
And incorrect:

U.S. medical research funding falls: analysis | Reuters

Ahem maybe you should have read the article

NIH is the largest single funder of basic medical research in the United States; the research it supports provides the foundation of knowledge that drives innovation and improves health.

In other words, you're still wrong.

In other words you still cannot read and understand a simple statement or interpret it correctly.
No wonder you are a leftist. You have the IQ of a turnip. You have no ability to read and make logical deductions from what you've just read. You are utterly worthless.

 

[The Rabbi]

Monetary greed and power greed are huge forces trained into the human nature. Yet if people are never expected to be better we have just given up. Universal health care can and does work. Like any human invention there are flaws even in the best of them.
US medical costs are way beyond everyone who does have universal health care.
You have runaway prices for equipment and medicines. You have the high cost of doctors and no one denies them a decent living. The cost to run a hospital. It is expensive.
You add to that the profit for insurance executives and the cost gets higher. You add the cost of filing to twenty different insurance companies. You add in calls on every claim and it gets insane.
You look at Medicare and VA coverage. You are looking at two of the highest risk groups and the US covers them with no lower and healthier groups to ease the grading on costs. There is no buffer group.
The cost of medical care is all about profit. Universal health care would still have premiums and is not free as it isn't today. People would not stop paying for coverage. The government would get the premium money. Insurance companies survive on premium money. The government would do the same. Why would anyone think the government will not charge the premium. All the other nations have a premium.

Unicwersal health care does not work. Every system is beset by the same issues: runaway costs leading to high structural deficits. Why do you think the US will be different? States that have tried some version of Obamacare have all experienced exactly the same thing.
The gov't is incompetent to run a whorehouse. They cannot run health care. Private enterprise comes with incentives for efficiency and innovation. That is why virtually every advance in medicine has come from the US.
If we want to provide care c.1980 to everyone we can do that. I'd prefer people have access to state of the art care.

You would have to leave the US to get state of the art care. You may get a few cures here but prevention and care comes from many other nations. Medical advancements don't only come from the US. They come from all around the world in an equivalent number. But state of the art care all you get in the US is state of the art costs.

This is why 3rd world dictators and others come here?
King Hussein Heads To U.s. For Medical Treatment - Chicago Tribune
Yemeni President Heads To US For Medical Treatment | Fox News
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Lx4nB60Vo]Saudi King Heads to U.S. for Medical Treatment - YouTube[/ame]

Your post is a bunch of unsupported and wrong generalizations.

 

[Oddball]

I have to disagree.

I believe the Government must maintain some control in order to protect the rights of the people.

Health Care is a good example.

The first document of our country lists only three rights: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

And I believe that order of rights is important. Without Liberty, there can be no pursuit. Without Life, there can be no Liberty.

Without access to proper health care, all three of those rights are diminished if not completely removed.

Therefore, if it is the governments role to not only recognize but protect the rights of the people, then the government must find a way to provide health care for all citizens.

Man, what convoluted "logic" (for lack of a better term).

There's no lack of access to health care....None whatsoever.

And while we're talking about life and liberty, what of the lives and liberties of the people who enter the medical profession, to earn what the market will bear paying them?

First,

There are people in this country who die because the health insurance company they paid for years suddenly drops them when they get sick. They worked, paid their premiums and then were dropped. Then because they were gainfully employed and not lazy drains on the system, they made too much money to qualify for assistance from the state.

That would be known as breach of contract...A legal tort.

Or they end up so far in debt, that it takes a decade or more to dig themselves out of the whole or worse lose everything they've worked their entire lived for.

Vague anecdotal talking point, that only works on gullible sob sisters.

As far as those who enter the field to make money...you think doctors work for free in France or Germany?

You think people don't get rich in Europe?

Red Herring on two counts...Medical professionals in America deserve to make what the market for their services will bear (rather than what some bureaucratic schedule says they should make) and nobody said anything about getting rich.

 

[Vidi]

The linkl is not proof of anything, other than you cannot analyze evidence. It is plea for continued funding. Nothing more.
Again, your statement is unsupported.
And incorrect:

U.S. medical research funding falls: analysis | Reuters

Ahem maybe you should have read the article

NIH is the largest single funder of basic medical research in the United States; the research it supports provides the foundation of knowledge that drives innovation and improves health.

In other words, you're still wrong.

In other words you still cannot read and understand a simple statement or interpret it correctly.
No wonder you are a leftist. You have the IQ of a turnip. You have no ability to read and make logical deductions from what you've just read. You are utterly worthless.

And there's the typical " I'm taking my ball and going home " right wing tantrum.

 

[Vidi]

Man, what convoluted "logic" (for lack of a better term).

There's no lack of access to health care....None whatsoever.

And while we're talking about life and liberty, what of the lives and liberties of the people who enter the medical profession, to earn what the market will bear paying them?

First,

There are people in this country who die because the health insurance company they paid for years suddenly drops them when they get sick. They worked, paid their premiums and then were dropped. Then because they were gainfully employed and not lazy drains on the system, they made too much money to qualify for assistance from the state.

That would be known as breach of contract...A legal tort.

Or they end up so far in debt, that it takes a decade or more to dig themselves out of the whole or worse lose everything they've worked their entire lived for.

Vague anecdotal talking point, that only works on gullible sob sisters.

As far as those who enter the field to make money...you think doctors work for free in France or Germany?

You think people don't get rich in Europe?

Red Herring on two counts...Medical professionals in America deserve to make what the market for their services will bear (rather than what some bureaucratic schedule says they should make) and nobody said anything about getting rich.

Dead people can't sue, Odd.

Medical professionals "deserve"?

So they're entitled to a certain wage...interesting. So you support entitlements it just depends on who the entitlements go to.

 

[Oddball]

So you have so many beefs with the way the government runs things why are you still here? Obviously you don't like the government.

No chance that a comment like that will come back to bite your ass.....Nope, not a chance.

Back to health care. The US does little with preventative measures. In many European nations you are required to have an annual physical and if you do not your premiums go up. In the US you are lucky to even get one covered by insurance.

So you have so many beefs with the way medical services are delivered why are you still here? Obviously, you like European socialism much better than freedom and free enterprise.

 

[The Rabbi]

Ahem maybe you should have read the article




In other words, you're still wrong.

In other words you still cannot read and understand a simple statement or interpret it correctly.
No wonder you are a leftist. You have the IQ of a turnip. You have no ability to read and make logical deductions from what you've just read. You are utterly worthless.

And there's the typical " I'm taking my ball and going home " right wing tantrum.

Wow. Still proving me right.
I think you are a waste of time and bandwidth. You have nothing to contribute here. You are too stupid to contribute anything except your ignorant opinion.

 

[Oddball]

First,

There are people in this country who die because the health insurance company they paid for years suddenly drops them when they get sick. They worked, paid their premiums and then were dropped. Then because they were gainfully employed and not lazy drains on the system, they made too much money to qualify for assistance from the state.

That would be known as breach of contract...A legal tort.



Vague anecdotal talking point, that only works on gullible sob sisters.

As far as those who enter the field to make money...you think doctors work for free in France or Germany?

You think people don't get rich in Europe?

Red Herring on two counts...Medical professionals in America deserve to make what the market for their services will bear (rather than what some bureaucratic schedule says they should make) and nobody said anything about getting rich.

Dead people can't sue, Odd.

Jesus H tapdancing Christ!...Is there a bullshit mythical scenario that you haven't swallowed whole?

Where are the hospitals just shoving patients out onto the street to die because their insurance just dropped them when they got sick?

C'mon....Start naming them.

Medical professionals "deserve"?

So they're entitled to a certain wage...interesting. So you support entitlements it just depends on who the entitlements go to.

WTF are you babbling about?

 

[Vidi]

In other words you still cannot read and understand a simple statement or interpret it correctly.
No wonder you are a leftist. You have the IQ of a turnip. You have no ability to read and make logical deductions from what you've just read. You are utterly worthless.

And there's the typical " I'm taking my ball and going home " right wing tantrum.

Wow. Still proving me right.
I think you are a waste of time and bandwidth. You have nothing to contribute here. You are too stupid to contribute anything except your ignorant opinion.

Hehe you make me giggle

Also, I understand the difference between medical and biomedical.

 

[Vidi]

That would be known as breach of contract...A legal tort.



Vague anecdotal talking point, that only works on gullible sob sisters.


Red Herring on two counts...Medical professionals in America deserve to make what the market for their services will bear (rather than what some bureaucratic schedule says they should make) and nobody said anything about getting rich.

Dead people can't sue, Odd.

Jesus H tapdancing Christ!...Is there a bullshit mythical scenario that you haven't swallowed whole?

Where are the hospitals just shoving patients out onto the street to die because their insurance just dropped them when they got sick?

C'mon....Start naming them.

Medical professionals "deserve"?

So they're entitled to a certain wage...interesting. So you support entitlements it just depends on who the entitlements go to.

WTF are you babbling about?

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes....-lack-of-insurance-to-45000-us-deaths-a-year/

45,000 deaths a year.

The Harvard study found that people without health insurance had a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance — as a result of being unable to obtain necessary medical care. The risk appears to have increased since 1993, when a similar study found the risk of death was 25 percent greater for the uninsured.

 

[Oddball]

Pure bullshit.

The uninsured have the same access to medical care as anyone else..They just don't have access to getting a third party to pay the freight for their treatment....On top of that, a rather large portion of the uninsured qualify for Medicare, Medicaid, and other state-run state programs and private programs for the indigent.

 

[Vidi]

Pure bullshit.

The uninsured have the same access to medical care as anyone else..They just don't have access to getting a third party to pay the freight for their treatment....On top of that, a rather large portion of the uninsured qualify for Medicare, Medicaid, and other state-run state programs and private programs for the indigent.

Yes some people qualify. Some people don't

And if they can't pay, they die.

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=14438171

You can say tough, they can't pay they die. At least that's a position.

But to deny that this is actually happening is nonsense.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Unicwersal health care does not work. Every system is beset by the same issues: runaway costs leading to high structural deficits. Why do you think the US will be different? States that have tried some version of Obamacare have all experienced exactly the same thing.
The gov't is incompetent to run a whorehouse. They cannot run health care. Private enterprise comes with incentives for efficiency and innovation. That is why virtually every advance in medicine has come from the US.
If we want to provide care c.1980 to everyone we can do that. I'd prefer people have access to state of the art care.

You would have to leave the US to get state of the art care. You may get a few cures here but prevention and care comes from many other nations. Medical advancements don't only come from the US. They come from all around the world in an equivalent number. But state of the art care all you get in the US is state of the art costs.

This is why 3rd world dictators and others come here?
King Hussein Heads To U.s. For Medical Treatment - Chicago Tribune
Yemeni President Heads To US For Medical Treatment | Fox News
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Lx4nB60Vo]Saudi King Heads to U.S. for Medical Treatment - YouTube[/ame]

Your post is a bunch of unsupported and wrong generalizations.

What did I generalize? According to the WCO the US ranks 37th in care. So how did I generalize that? Yemen is ranked 120th so it is easy to see why they would transfer someone to the 37th. It is better care.
So when you said I was making generalization it was you that made statements without knowledge, in fact. You might want to do the research before criticizing anyone else. It makes you look foolish.
What you get in the US is the highest cost for the 37th best. Seems like the US pays to much for to little.

Source for WCO rankings: World Health Organization ranking of healthcare systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Katiegrrl0]

So you have so many beefs with the way the government runs things why are you still here? Obviously you don't like the government.

No chance that a comment like that will come back to bite your ass.....Nope, not a chance.

Back to health care. The US does little with preventative measures. In many European nations you are required to have an annual physical and if you do not your premiums go up. In the US you are lucky to even get one covered by insurance.

So you have so many beefs with the way medical services are delivered why are you still here? Obviously, you like European socialism much better than freedom and free enterprise.

Being a Socialist and having dual citizenship in the US and France I have experienced both systems and in fact the care in France is far superior. In the case of health care the free market is outrageous. People should not go bankrupt or forced into a choice between food and medicines. If you think that's a good idea good for you. If you have millions in your bank account and can afford less care for more money that's good as well.
Many people may not be so lucky.
So in the end your statement is true. I have knowledge based beefs with the health care system in the US. I also do not care for the free market system.
No my statement will not come back to bite me in the ass. If I were ill and needed treatment long term treatment I would fly to France and have it done. Why would you think that earlier statement would bite me in the ass. Perhaps it's because you assumed to much without knowing my life situation.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Pure bullshit.

The uninsured have the same access to medical care as anyone else..They just don't have access to getting a third party to pay the freight for their treatment....On top of that, a rather large portion of the uninsured qualify for Medicare, Medicaid, and other state-run state programs and private programs for the indigent.

You forgot to mention that the many who do not qualify for the programs you mentioned end up being billed for the care. They end up bankrupt. They can't afford the medications so they get sick again. It becomes a cycle of illness.

The Universal heath care systems are not free. Taxes pay for the system. They come from the pocket of the worker. Just as your health insurance premiums come from your pocket. The difference is that you have to by the CEO of you insurance company (at the risk of your life) a new boat and cars every few years. I don't.
You pay more than triple for some services. I guess that's the American way. If it costs a lot it must be good. Well the US can do better. 37th is not terrible but there are 36 better and all of them cost less. Go figure.

 

[Foxfyre]

Pure bullshit.

The uninsured have the same access to medical care as anyone else..They just don't have access to getting a third party to pay the freight for their treatment....On top of that, a rather large portion of the uninsured qualify for Medicare, Medicaid, and other state-run state programs and private programs for the indigent.

Yes some people qualify. Some people don't

And if they can't pay, they die.

Without Insurance, 24-year-old Dies of Toothache - ABC News

You can say tough, they can't pay they die. At least that's a position.

But to deny that this is actually happening is nonsense.

You do know that health insurance doesn't include dental? You have to have separate dental insurance which nobody in the government has addressed?>

Or eye exams. Or hearing loss, etc.? (For which there is little or no insurance available for most people and the government doesn't seem to care about that either.)

And yet most people who need glasses or dental work done or hearing aids seem to be able to get them.

The guy who died because he couldn't afford to have a tooth pulled CHOSE to take the risk because there was help available for hm if he had asked.

And no amount of government cradle to grave benevolence is going to eliminate the anecdotal exceptions that will exist no matter how much money we pour into the black holes of government programs.

 

[Syphon]

Pure bullshit.

The uninsured have the same access to medical care as anyone else..They just don't have access to getting a third party to pay the freight for their treatment....On top of that, a rather large portion of the uninsured qualify for Medicare, Medicaid, and other state-run state programs and private programs for the indigent.

Yes some people qualify. Some people don't

And if they can't pay, they die.

Without Insurance, 24-year-old Dies of Toothache - ABC News

You can say tough, they can't pay they die. At least that's a position.

But to deny that this is actually happening is nonsense.

You do know that health insurance doesn't include dental? You have to have separate dental insurance which nobody in the government has addressed?>

Or eye exams. Or hearing loss, etc.? (For which there is little or no insurance available for most people and the government doesn't seem to care about that either.)

And yet most people who need glasses or dental work done or hearing aids seem to be able to get them.

The guy who died because he couldn't afford to have a tooth pulled CHOSE to take the risk because there was help available for hm if he had asked.

And no amount of government cradle to grave benevolence is going to eliminate the anecdotal exceptions that will exist no matter how much money we pour into the black holes of government programs.

he died from the infection since he did not have the insurance to afford the medication. that would have been part of his health care plan, not his dental plan.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Most medical advances and innovation come from the US. That's something we really need to consider... that innovation is created because we have a profit driven sector.

advances in medical technology and actual health care are not the same thing.

GE makes MRI machines, but they dont provide any health care services.
AstraZeneca makes pharmaceuticals, but they dont provide any health care.

so your argument of thinking that if you make health care a public service that innovation wont happen is false.

look at the military, the military is a public service yet Boeing is private they bring innovation and technology.

How much new medical technology do the English, Canadian and Cuban public health care sectors purchase every year?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

all those countries are democracy's yet the provide health care as a public service. none of those democratic countries are making a move to the american system.

so it is not only socialist countries such as Cuba and China who have better state run health care, it is democratic nations as well.

if the american system was so grand, every country would adopt it..... so tell us why they arent.

First, stop hiding behind the Liberal "us" and simply say tell "me"....
....don't be afraid to stand on your own two feet.

We're the richest nation. We have the best heathcare in the world.
Their standard of living and medical expectations aren't as high as ours.
The spend huge amounts of money on cradle-to-grave styles and you see the results in Greece, Portugal, Italy and Ireland.
Socialized medicine is fine for minor ailments, but if major and expensive, you don't get it.

National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE): tells Brits if their life is worth living- in actual dollars and cents. As the NYTimes states, its job is to develop “a standard method of rationing. NICE has decided that Britain, except in rare cases, can afford only £15,000, or about $22,750, to save six months of a citizen’s life.”
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/health/03nice.html)

So, the average one-bedroom apartment in Manhattan is worth way more than a Brits’ life!(New York City Real Estate | MNS is Real Impact Real Estate)
That the essence of your socialized medicine.

So, it has concluded that if you have breast cancer, the drug Tykerb, shown to delay the progression of the disease, is worth more than you are “despite Glaxo’s offer to pay for the first 12 weeks of treatment.”
U.K. Says Tykerb Isn’t Worth Cost, Even With 12 Free Weeks - Health Blog - WSJ

Socialism is based on the collective, the herd, whereas our system...until recently...honored the life and wellbeing of individuals.
Which do you want?

the average income in Britian is 2600 pounds or approx $41,000
Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
average earning in the US were $46,000
Income in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
not exactly the huge difference

so now youre gonna use NYC, which is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in as a comparison? thats a bad comparison.... but if you want more proof, it actually costs more to live in London than NYC. Housing in Toyko is much higher too, and the also have universal health care as well.

Top 50 Highest Cost of Living Cities In The World

out system does not honor the individual life, its values profit. until the health care law was passed, it was legal for insurance companies to drop your coverage if you became too expensive or got sick. tell me how that honor individual life.

the essence of universal health care to provide equal access of health care services to all people no matter how much they make or how much they are worth. thus everyone gets equal treatment. the way the current system works is that those with the most money get access to better services than those with the least.

if you really value human and individual life so much, why are you advocating for different levels of care to different classes of society? is a human life really worth less than the value of a dollar?

Coverage Denied: How the Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind
In 45 states across the country, insurance companies can discriminate against people based on their pre-existing conditions when they try to purchase health insurance directly from insurance companies in the individual insurance market.4 Insurers can deny them coverage, charge higher premiums, and/or refuse to cover that particular medical condition. A recent national survey estimated that 12.6 million non-elderly adults5 – 36 percent of those who tried to purchase health insurance directly from an insurance company in the individual insurance market – were in fact discriminated against because of a pre-existing condition in the previous three years.

but i guess youre ok with denying people health care...... that makes you a real christian

In 45 states across the country, insurance companies can discriminate against people based on their pre-existing conditions when they try to purchase health insurance directly from insurance companies in the individual insurance market

You're right, people should be able to wait until they're sick and then buy health insurance.
Moron.

but i guess youre ok with denying people health care...... that makes you a real christian

What does ignorance of economics make you?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yes, we have the best health care in the world, if you're a BILLIONNAIRE.

Otherwise, UNTIL THIS YEAR, thanks to ACA, insurers could throw you off for technicalities, or your charges could drive you into bankruptcy. 750k bankruptcies (3/4 people WITH insurance) and 45k DYING because they had no insurance- ALL UNKNOWN in any other modern country. AND a huge toll on our global competitiveness...

And the traffic accident stuff is total blather...

Yeah, people living under nationalized healthcare never die while on a long waiting list.
Moron.