If minimum wage were raised ...

[Iceweasel]

I fail to understand why people are so deeply concerned about raising the minimum in wage when most people who work for minimum wage are employed by the most profitable companies in the USA - including MacDonalds and Walmart. These are companies which openly assist their workers in applying for government assistance programs to supplement their wages.

These are companies which pay their executives millions of dollars while helping their front line workers apt for food stamps. There is something very wrong with this. Especially considering these companies also operate very profitably in other countries with higher minim wages than the USA.

I don't think there should be cutbacks in programs which assist the poor but I do think that wages should be increased to the point that those who have full time jobs shouldn't need government assistance to get by.

As I mentioned to you before, state and federal regulations make it more tempting for a company to hire two part timers instead of one full timer. And minimum wage jobs are not designed to raise families with. It's a starter position for the young or semi-retired low level grunt work. People used to wait to make families or get two jobs. Walmart didn't create the system.

Nor do you have any concept of how franchises work. The owner of your local McDs probably isn't rich and is only the CEO of his store(s). Taking more of his profit will mean price increases or layoffs or closures.

As far as the corporations, they are global like never before. Look at the foreign countries US franchises have invaded. By what measure would that not be more profitable?

 

[SwimExpert]

I fail to understand why people are so deeply concerned about raising the minimum in wage when most people who work for minimum wage are employed by the most profitable companies in the USA - including MacDonalds and Walmart. These are companies which openly assist their workers in applying for government assistance programs to supplement their wages.

Why be concerned? It's fairly simple. Far reaching government regulation that does not accomplish its desired results is always a bad idea.

Personally, I am very disturbed by companies like McDonalds and Walmart actively fleecing the tax payers into subsidizing THEIR payrolls. I would be all too happy to see that practice end. Raising the minimum wage will not accomplish that.

 

[BillyZane]

So what makes you think that they'll simply roll and accept a lower profit margin if Congress passes a minimum wage increase?

To some degree, yes.

If I'm selling hamburgers, I'm ALREADY selling them at the highest price my customers will pay. If my costs go up, my customers don't care, my burgers are only worth so much to them. Price them too high and they won't sell.

Some of you guys forget this simple economic fact, if you ever knew it in the first place. Labor costs are the same as any other cost and the customer doesn't care what your profit margin is. Of course inflation could change things, but there is no evidence that supports the theory that a min wage increase causes inflation.

Burgers are not the economy. Goods and services are different. Some are more luxury, some are necessity, some are convenience. Most are some combination of the two. By providing something that the consumer requires the company has leverage over the consumer. Thus, raising the price of what you are selling is not likely to prove harmful, so long as the increase is not extraordinary.

But since you used burgers as an example, so will I. If I'm a greedy, evil business owner who sells burgers, and my labor costs go up, I can very easily offset those costs. Chances are, the increase will amount to somewhere around $.02 per meal. So I'm going to raise my prices $.10 a burger. And $.10 a soda. And $.05 per order of fries. Nothing extreme. Just something small that the consumer will scarcely register. If some people start to make some noise about it then I'll tell them the truth. That it's a reaction to the increased minimum wage. I'll also tell them some tripe about how I allegedly managed to minimize the price increases. This will make people think I care about them and will help them to quickly forget about their concerns. After all, it's just a few cents.

So while I'm spending an extra $.02 per meal in labor, I'm collecting an extra $.25 per meal in revenue. What a profit margin! Meanwhile, I'm not the only one doing this. Every other business is out there doing the same thing. Price increases here and there that are pretty negligible for the consumer, but a huge profit for the business. It doesn't take very long for a consumer doing grocery shopping to fill up their cart with food that is now $25 more expensive than before, across a month's food buying. Then there's that tiny extra they're paying in gas. Maybe only adds up to $10 a month. Then there's their miscellaneous things like soap, shampoo, toilet paper, shaving cream and razors. It's not that big of a deal, only $5 a month those nickel-and-dime price increases.

And one of the reasons I can get away with these little increases is because there are people who now have more money in their pockets. Their ability to pay has increased, so their willingness to pay increases. And since my price increases are seemingly negligible, my business is giving them a deal, it seems.

And it increases, on and on. That minimum wage worker quickly ends up in the same position as before. Their increased pay is worth no more to them than their previous pay. But you know the real kicker to all of this? There is one person who does actually benefit. And that's me, the greedy, evil business owner who managed to turn the increase of minimum wage into increased profit margins for myself, simply by nickel-and-diming each and every single person who walks through my door with seemingly negligible increases in my prices.

And this is how the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

except for , once again, what you claim will happen has NEVER happened when the minimum wage was increased, not once in multiple increases have we seen an increase in prices.

In fact, what we DO see is that prices are ALREADY being increased without any corresponding increase in wages. Making the entire argument moot.

 

[SwimExpert]

except for , once again, what you claim will happen has NEVER happened when the minimum wage was increased, not once in multiple increases have we seen an increase in prices.

That is simply not true.

In fact, what we DO see is that prices are ALREADY being increased without any corresponding increase in wages. Making the entire argument moot.

I guess that disproves your previous argument.

 

[auditor0007]

If minimum wage were raised, presumably many people's wages would be bumped at least a little. Even though only a small percentage of workers earn minimum wage, the people who started out at minimum wage and got raises would get upset if brand new employees suddenly got as much as they did, so lots of wages would go up.

So how many jobs would be created or saved by this move -- for instance because of the increase in spending money available for local spending?

And how many jobs would be lost -- for instance because the increase in American wages would make offshore labor look more appealing, or because business owners' profit margin wouldn't support a 20% hike in labor costs so they would let a small portion of their workforce go and hope for more productivity from the rest?

Let’s just say for example that the new “living” minimum wage is double the current federal minimum wage: $7.25 x 2= $14.5/hr (+-$30,160 per year). The people who would supposedly benefit the most would be low skilled workers right? Now what about the moderate skilled workers who were making $15/hr already? Would they sweat in the hot sun all day as a construction worker if they knew they could make the same stocking shelves at Wal-Mart? Would they freeze in the winter as an HVAC repairman crawling under people’s houses if they could make the same amount sweeping the floors as a janitor? Would you? Employers dealing in construction, heating/air, plumbing, etc., will need to considerably increase wages to keep their staff on board. Indeed, all skilled labor employers would need to increase the wages of their workers in order to remain competitive in the market for skilled labor, or else, their competitors will grab them. Moreover, high skilled labor would need to increase their pay and benefits.

If you mandated a living wage you would only create a new poverty line with the same amount of poverty after the market settles down.

Yes, I'm assuming that wages for skilled labor would also rise.

With millions being paid more, there would be more tax revenue.



I am curious about what the new standards would be for public assistance -- would the poverty line just be arbitrarily bumped up in accordance with the rise in minimum wage? As you say, it seems likely it would.

But more taxes would be going into the coffer, so there would be more money for public projects. That could mean more jobs.

First off, doubling the minimum wage is unrealistic, imo. That does not mean that we could not raise it by up to 50%. This would cause some inflation, and yes, wages for everyone would creep up a little bit. The big thing is that it would put a tremendous amount of additional money into the economy as lower paid workers tend to spend just about every dollar they earn. That would lead to the need for more workers. The real key is to increase wages without causing massive inflation. It's a bit tricky but it can be done.

 

[Muhammed]

The thing that disgusts me is that it seems that most of the people who are against raising the minimum wage are people who don't make much more than the minimum wage.

The reason they oppose the minimum wage is based solely on their false sense of superiority over those who make minimum wage.

They are idiots.

 

[BillyZane]

except for , once again, what you claim will happen has NEVER happened when the minimum wage was increased, not once in multiple increases have we seen an increase in prices.

That is simply not true.

In fact, what we DO see is that prices are ALREADY being increased without any corresponding increase in wages. Making the entire argument moot.

I guess that disproves your previous argument.

How exactly do prices rising independently of a minimum wage increase prove that prices do rise because of a minimum wage increase?

Answer? It doesn't.

That's like saying that a batter's average going up when the pitcher doesn't throw fast balls proves it goes down when he doesn't throw fastballs

 

[SwimExpert]

except for , once again, what you claim will happen has NEVER happened when the minimum wage was increased, not once in multiple increases have we seen an increase in prices.

That is simply not true.

In fact, what we DO see is that prices are ALREADY being increased without any corresponding increase in wages. Making the entire argument moot.

I guess that disproves your previous argument.

How exactly do prices rising independently of a minimum wage increase prove that prices do rise because of a minimum wage increase?

Answer? It doesn't.

That's like saying that a batter's average going up when the pitcher doesn't throw fast balls proves it goes down when he doesn't throw fastballs

I think you're deliberately trying to be deceptive now. Your previous argument was that the price of burgers won't go up, because the price is already set to the maximum that it can be, and consumers won't pay more for it because they don't value it at a higher price.

Now, you are saying that prices are going up all around us. These two premises are direct contradictions.

 

[BillyZane]

That is simply not true.



I guess that disproves your previous argument.

How exactly do prices rising independently of a minimum wage increase prove that prices do rise because of a minimum wage increase?

Answer? It doesn't.

That's like saying that a batter's average going up when the pitcher doesn't throw fast balls proves it goes down when he doesn't throw fastballs

I think you're deliberately trying to be deceptive now. Your previous argument was that the price of burgers won't go up, because the price is already set to the maximum that it can be, and consumers won't pay more for it because they don't value it at a higher price.

Now, you are saying that prices are going up all around us. These two premises are direct contradictions.

No they are not.

Prices are always going up as consumers are willing to pay more for products. What we see currently is that consumers ARE willing to pay more for products, even without a minimum wage increase. At the same time, we have no proof that a minimum wage increase leads to consumers being willing to pay more for products.

IOW if I give one of my employees a $1 an hour raise there is no proof that my customers are going to be willing to pay more for my products because of that.

 

[SwimExpert]

Yes, they are. Either prices are going up and up and up, or they will not go up because they are already at the maximum of what people are willing to pay.

One or the other. It is impossible for both to be true. Pick one.

 

[BillyZane]

Yes, they are. Either prices are going up and up and up, or they will not go up because they are already at the maximum of what people are willing to pay.

One or the other. It is impossible for both to be true. Pick one.

oh good lord, I thought this was the adult section of the board

Prices are always rising IF the customer is willing to pay more. That doesn't negate the fact that you have NO proof that a raise in the minimum wage has ever been the cause of a rise in prices.

In other words, inflation has remained pretty much the same whether the minimum wage is increased or not.

 

[Mr. President]

You can't effectively raise minimum wage without being able to cap prices of merchandise. You must therefore fix your import export taxation laws to benefit job creation at home building a need for corporations to hire American workers to stay profitable then raise the minimum wage 2 dollars adding on tax incentives that offset the change in wage for the corporation.

 

[Politico]

Yes, they are. Either prices are going up and up and up, or they will not go up because they are already at the maximum of what people are willing to pay.

One or the other. It is impossible for both to be true. Pick one.

oh good lord, I thought this was the adult section of the board

Prices are always rising IF the customer is willing to pay more. That doesn't negate the fact that you have NO proof that a raise in the minimum wage has ever been the cause of a rise in prices.

In other words, inflation has remained pretty much the same whether the minimum wage is increased or not.

How silly. Labor is a upwards of 30% of a business budget. You can't increase that liability and not expect them to increase prices.

 

[Iceweasel]

How silly. Labor is a upwards of 30% of a business budget. You can't increase that liability and not expect them to increase prices.

I've yet to see one of our liberal economic experts own a business for a day. It's all theory with no practical knowledge.

 

[BillyZane]

How silly. Labor is a upwards of 30% of a business budget. You can't increase that liability and not expect them to increase prices.

I've yet to see one of our liberal economic experts own a business for a day. It's all theory with no practical knowledge.

I own 2 businesses and am not liberal. I also don't pay anywhere near the minimum wage. Primarily because I don't want minimum labor.

But labor is just like any other cost, the prices fluctuate over time, my costs on everything have went up over the last year. I don't raise my prices every time one of those costs go up, eventually if the total costs go too high, yes I have to raise prices, but this idea that prices will HAVE to go up if the minimum wage is raised is ridiculous. AND history has proven it false.

 

[Iceweasel]

But labor is just like any other cost, the prices fluctuate over time, my costs on everything have went up over the last year. I don't raise my prices every time one of those costs go up, eventually if the total costs go too high, yes I have to raise prices, but this idea that prices will HAVE to go up if the minimum wage is raised is ridiculous. AND history has proven it false.

Labor is a huge determining factor for pricing your services, yours and your employees. Paying a dollar more for an item is one thing, especially if it's still profitable but paying a full timer a dollar an hour more all year is no small matter. What historical evidence are you eluding to?

 

[Dragonlady]

How silly. Labor is a upwards of 30% of a business budget. You can't increase that liability and not expect them to increase prices.

I've yet to see one of our liberal economic experts own a business for a day. It's all theory with no practical knowledge.

I have owned a business, as have my parents and other family members. We're all liberals.

 

[Iceweasel]

I've yet to see one of our liberal economic experts own a business for a day. It's all theory with no practical knowledge.

I have owned a business, as have my parents and other family members. We're all liberals.

Yes I know liberals own businesses. Google is way left and they are filthy sticking rich and it costs a fortune to advertise with them. Yet we never see their name mentioned from the left when we hear about corporate greed. Maybe you are qualified to answer why that is.

 

[BillyZane]

I've yet to see one of our liberal economic experts own a business for a day. It's all theory with no practical knowledge.

I have owned a business, as have my parents and other family members. We're all liberals.

Yes I know liberals own businesses. Google is way left and they are filthy sticking rich and it costs a fortune to advertise with them. Yet we never see their name mentioned from the left when we hear about corporate greed. Maybe you are qualified to answer why that is.

You're clearly the one with no knowledge here.

Let's take a fictional restaurant.

Let's assume 10 wage earners at minimum wage .Now let's take the industry standard and say that labor is 30% of sales. So $2,900 * .30X gives us x=$sales per week.

Or $8700 i sales per week.

Now, let's assume minimum wage is raised to $10 an hour giving this restaurant an additional labor cost of $900 a week for a total of $3700 in labor costs. Or a 10% increase in costs.

Now remember, this is abut the WORST case scenario b/c few if any businesses have all their employees at minimum wage. So we can set 10% as the most a companies payroll would go up by if the minimum wage were raised to $10 an hour.

So, we can see that unless greedy and stupid a company should raise prices by no more than 10% to offset increased labor costs. An increase of 10% given that the minimum wage increased would be acceptable to consumers but any more than that and consumers would likely balk.

So your #3 with cheese would go from $3.69 to $4. Now , I don't know about you , but I find myself noticing that prices have ALREADY been rising by about that much every year without any minimum wage increase. Meaning no likely impact on pricing, which once again, if you look at historical inflation data you would see it agrees with that assesment

 

[BillyZane]

I've yet to see one of our liberal economic experts own a business for a day. It's all theory with no practical knowledge.

I have owned a business, as have my parents and other family members. We're all liberals.

Yes I know liberals own businesses. Google is way left and they are filthy sticking rich and it costs a fortune to advertise with them. Yet we never see their name mentioned from the left when we hear about corporate greed. Maybe you are qualified to answer why that is.

Very poor choice to bring up Google in this thread to make your "point"

Google Salaries and Benefits | Glassdoor

Google is near or at the top of the pay scale in nearly every job.

NO ONE cares how greedy a company is as long as we the taxpayer aren't subsidizing them or their wages.