Zone1 If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[BothWings]

Maybe they do, but that still has nothing to do with prophecy.

None of this does.

 

[Meriweather]

In that case, tell us who the two men are that are killed and rise 3and 1/2 days later. How did they in the 1st century nearly destroy all life on the planet with their swords? When was the sun blocked out? When did the earthquake that levels the Mt. of Olives where Christ returns take place? When was the final battle in the Valley of Jezreel? Was there really that much blood? And since we know Jesus stays the next time He shows up, where is He? How was His millennial reign?

None of that has happened yet...

Three and a half has a special significance to Jews. The two men were Moses and Elijah. John is painting a portrait of the past, reminding people of the troubles and God's work in the past continually taking place throughout time...in this case first century time.

Other Old Testament events (sun blocked out), etc. also signify, remind one of Old Testament stories. All of this would have been abundantly clear to Jewish readers in John's time--but make no sense to the Romans. Today's Christians are not as familiar with Old Testament stories as the readers of John's day were. In fact, that's the reason there was a debate about whether Revelation should be included in the Bible--because most people at the time of that debate were not at all familiar with John's reference points.

I studied this years ago, and one of the main sources we used was William Barclay and other scholars. A moment ago, I took a quick peek at what AI is using, and it appears to have picked up the scholarly studies of the Book of Revelation. You may not be interested as people who steadfastly believe Revelation reveals a future event have another perspective.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Sure, Fort fun.

Jeremiah prophesied that Babylon would rule over Judah for seventy years. Babylon controlled Judah from 609 to 539 BC.
There would be a King named Cyrus who would free the Jews in Babylon and allow their Temple to be built. Cyrus the Great repatriated 46,360 Jews to their homeland and told them to build their Temple.
Ezekiel in 573 BC said that the thriving Tyre would be turned into rubble under the sea and the stones would be used by fishermen drying their nets.

Isaiah 53 written 700 years before the fact:
“He was despised and rejected, pierced for our transgressions."
No bones broken. While the Romans were out breaking the legs of those being crucified, Jesus was speared instead.
Christ would be buried in a rich man's tomb. He was.
He would remain silent. He did.
Mica said Christ would be turned over for 30 pieces of silver. He was.

Just those few prophecies coming true is 1 in 10 to the 17th power. That would be equivalent to finding one particular grain of sand on a beach. For one person to fulfill 48 prophesies that refer to Christ is 1 in 10 to the 157th power.

There's lots more. Maybe you can research a few more while I go make supper...

 

[ding]

You can't prove that there ever was a messiah that was tortured it's just a story in a book. I never claimed that I can predict anything with certainty. I can't predict exactly how the civilization will fall they all fall differently. But they do all fall and with a similar pattern every time.

Non-Christian historians like Pliny the Younger (c. 112 AD) and Tacitus (c. 116 AD) recorded that early Christians worshiped Jesus as a god, confirming that by the late 1st/early 2nd century, followers viewed him divinely, with Pliny noting hymns sung "to Christ, as to a god" and Tacitus mentioning "Christus" as the founder executed by Pilate, corroborating early Christian beliefs from outside sources.

Flavius Josephus did not explicitly record that Jesus was worshiped as God in a manner a Christian would use, but his writings do mention that Christians worshipped him as divine or as the Christ.

The original core of Josephus's text, as reconstructed by most modern scholars, likely stated the following facts about Jesus from a non-Christian, historical perspective:

• He was a wise and virtuous teacher.
• He performed startling or surprising deeds.
• He gained a significant following among both Jews and Greeks.
• He was condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilate at the instigation of leading Jewish men.
• His followers did not abandon their devotion to him after his crucifixion.
• They reported that he appeared to them alive again on the third day.
• He was referred to as the Messiah/Christ by his followers.

Flavius Josephus, a prominent Jewish historian, lived from approximately A.D. 37 to around A.D. 100, making him a near-contemporary of Jesus and a crucial source for 1st-century Jewish history, particularly the Jewish-Roman War (66-73 CE). Born in Jerusalem, he was a priest who became a general, then surrendered to the Romans, adopted the family name "Flavius," and documented his era's events from Rome.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The two men were Moses and Elijah

Elijah has yet to die. The two men who will preach and be killed are Enoch and Elijah. Both at the same time. < Because it is for every man to die once. Those 2 have not.
3 and 1/2 days is significant.
Please continue:
When was all life on earth nearly destroyed in the first century, and what swords could melt the skin off the bone and dry the eyes in the sockets?
When was the Mt. of Olives split in two? It still looks ok to me.
The return of Christ is to prevent us from destroying life on earth, because we can do that NOW, but not then. If it is a fait accompli, how was His millennial reign, and where is He? And why is Satan free to roam to and fro? Jesus was supposed to chain him.
You have to be able to answer those questions as per the 1st century.

 

[BothWings]

No I'm

Non-Christian historians like Pliny the Younger (c. 112 AD) and Tacitus (c. 116 AD) recorded that early Christians worshiped Jesus as a god, confirming that by the late 1st/early 2nd century, followers viewed him divinely, with Pliny noting hymns sung "to Christ, as to a god" and Tacitus mentioning "Christus" as the founder executed by Pilate, corroborating early Christian beliefs from outside sources.

Flavius Josephus did not explicitly record that Jesus was worshiped as God in a manner a Christian would use, but his writings do mention that Christians worshipped him as divine or as the Christ.

The original core of Josephus's text, as reconstructed by most modern scholars, likely stated the following facts about Jesus from a non-Christian, historical perspective:

• He was a wise and virtuous teacher.
• He performed startling or surprising deeds.
• He gained a significant following among both Jews and Greeks.
• He was condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilate at the instigation of leading Jewish men.
• His followers did not abandon their devotion to him after his crucifixion.
• They reported that he appeared to them alive again on the third day.
• He was referred to as the Messiah/Christ by his followers.

Flavius Josephus, a prominent Jewish historian, lived from approximately A.D. 37 to around A.D. 100, making him a near-contemporary of Jesus and a crucial source for 1st-century Jewish history, particularly the Jewish-Roman War (66-73 CE). Born in Jerusalem, he was a priest who became a general, then surrendered to the Romans, adopted the family name "Flavius," and documented his era's events from Rome.

Outsiders observing a cult. And like many cults, still much truth which should not be completely denied. The best lies have incontrovertrible truths mixed in amongst the falsehoods. When does a religion become a cult? I say when it starts spiraling the inward on certain cultures and individuals as if they are the last word in the last incarnation of Truth. The real truth is that there have been many of them, and there will be many more and it will probably never stop coming forth that way. That's the problem with this thing. Every lucky witness of the eternal truth wants to believe that what he has seen is the last word. And that is main obstacle and contradiction to preserving "Truth Eternal".

 

[The Irish Ram]

None of this does.

It's about a book that happens to be 1/4 prophesy, and why we need it, and the challenge to prove the Messiah existed.

2 Peter1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.​

 

[BothWings]

It's about a book that happens to be 1/4 prophesy, and why we need it...

2 Peter1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.​

So they say.
Got anything real?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Boy did you get that wrong. Another misinterpretation.

The idea that God's glory is revealed by silencing critics through good works is found in 1 Peter 2:15, which states: "For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorance of foolish people". This perspective suggests that faithful action, rather than argument, brings honor to God.
According to 1 Peter 2:15, believers are encouraged to respond to ignorant criticism not by arguing, but by "doing good," which puts to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Overly simplistic
but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

Charlie Kirk did pretty much exactly what the apostle paul did, and both were murdered for it

 

[ding]

No I'm

Outsiders observing a cult. And like many cults, still much truth which should not be completely denied. The best lies have in controversible truths mixed in amongst the falsehood. When does a religion become a cult? I say when it starts sparrowing inward on certain cultures and individuals as if they are the last word in the last incarnation of Truth. The real truth is is that there have been many of them and there will be many more and it will probably never stop coming. That's the problem with this thing. Emory observer of eternal truth wants to believe that what he has seen is the last word .

Or what they saw and heard really happened. There are no opposing accounts. Jewish texts recorded that Jesus was put to death for sorcery and apostasy. How does that not corroborate the accounts of the NT?

 

[ding]

So they say.
Got anything real?

What would you accept? Because it sounds like there is nothing you would accept. Would you accept this EVIDENCE?

The historical evidence shows:

1. The first Christians who witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles.
2. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
3. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
4. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy.
5. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
6. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
7. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
8. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
9. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
10. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
11. The behaviors of the Apostles before and after the resurrection of Christ.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Got that winner of the Derby yet?
Who are the they you speak of? Do you mean eyewitnesses? Dead Sea Scrolls? Something like that?

 

[BothWings]

What would you accept? Because it sounds like there is nothing you would accept. Would you accept this EVIDENCE?

The historical evidence shows:

1. The first Christians who witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles.
2. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
3. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
4. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy.
5. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
6. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
7. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
8. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
9. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
10. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
11. The behaviors of the Apostles before and after the resurrection of Christ.

Yeah but... Your just quoting stuff written by elite intelligencia that you can't corroborate. If you couldve, you wouldve. And as I said I'm not holding my breath.. Someone bent me that I am....but so far they are losing.

 

[ding]

Yeah but... Your just quoting stuff written by elite intelligencia that you can't corroborate. If you couldve, you wouldve. And as I said I'm not holding my breath.. Someone bent me that I am....but so far they are losing.

I'm showing you the EVIDENCE for the historicity of the account of Christ. The first Christians were persecuted, imprisoned and put to death for their beliefs. Why do you believe they would do that? What is it that you believe they gained?

You are making a conspiracy theory argument. There's no evidence for that.

 

[BothWings]

You're quoting someone's book..

I'm showing you the EVIDENCE for the historicity of the account of Christ. The first Christians were persecuted, imprisoned and put to death for their beliefs. Why do you believe that is?

You are arguing a conspiracy theory. There's no evidence for that.

 

[ding]

You're quoting someone's book..

Incorrect. I'm showing you the historical evidence.

The historical evidence shows:

1. The first Christians who witnessed the supernatural acts performed by Jesus - which included controlling matter, controlling nature, healing physical deformities, healing diseases, raising the dead and resurrecting himself from death - worshiped Jesus as God because they witnessed those miracles.
2. Non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshiped Jesus as God because he performed supernatural feats.
3. 24,000 written manuscripts documented the supernatural feats Jesus performed and the first Christians witnessed.
4. The Babylonian Talmud confirms Jewish religious leaders put Jesus to death for sorcery and for leading Israel into apostasy.
5. There are no opposing accounts that document that Jesus did not perform any supernatural acts.
6. There are no opposing accounts that argue Jesus wasn't put to death for performing sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
7. There are no opposing accounts which document Jesus wasn't resurrected.
8. There are no opposing accounts that the first Christians didn't witness Jesus performing supernatural acts.
9. There are no opposing accounts that document the first Christians didn't worship Jesus as God.
10. There are no accounts that the miracles performed by Jesus were symbolic.
11. The behaviors of the Apostles before and after the resurrection of Christ.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So they say.
Got anything real?

What would you consider real?

 

[The Irish Ram]

BothWings, what would you consider real??

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Fort fun.

Jeremiah prophesied that Babylon would rule over Judah for seventy years. Babylon controlled Judah from 609 to 539 BC.
There would be a King named Cyrus who would free the Jews in Babylon and allow their Temple to be built.

And? Which book of the Bible did he write? Does the Bible somehow get credit for this guy getting something right? I don't see how. Nor is that evidence of the truth of any other in the collection of claims from a collection of sources in the Bible.