If Christians are allowed to discriminate against gays ...

[TheProgressivePatriot]

There’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t just trying to defend the rights of LGBTQ. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.

You call it social engineering. I call it social and cultural evolution. People like you are fearful of change and progress and that is pathetic. You just can't get your thick head around the fact that we are evolving into a more secular and rational society. There is no organized plot to undermine " traditional biblical ideas" People just don't believe that nonsense any more

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Do you honestly think that these things always happen randomly and innocently? No, certain powers behind the scenes sometimes go out of their way to look for a fight, in order to create a court case to push their political/social agenda. The same thing happened with abortion. "Jane Roe", (Norma McCorvey, the woman behind Roe v. Wade) was used in order to push a particular agenda. She didn’t realize it at the time, but many years later she did.

That is your interpretation of what is happening. If any one " looked for a fight" it is because they felt wronged and they had every right to pick a fight. Do you honestly think that the "new Jim Crow" laws- "bathroom bills" and limitations on adoption were random? Maybe, jut maybe they are a calculated assault on gays for having won the right to marry. There is something seriously wrong wit the way that you think about this stuff

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. This is not simply about gay citizens…In many cases, they are being used as pawns. There are powers behind the scenes who are pushing a political agenda, and that agenda is subversive and anti-Christian. So of course they're going to target Christians. And there's actually even more to it than that, but I'm not going to get into all that because you wouldn't believe it or understand it. But just because you don't believe this, or you think it's crazy doesn't make it untrue. You'll see, someday. Mark my words.

Oh please ! Who are the "powers behind the scenes " who are using gays. ? They are supporters and allies , like me of gays. They are the liberals and progressive who can see past your regressive bullshit. You are just spewing idiotic horseshit. Do you really think that gay people are stupid and easily manipulated? Apparently so. Just more of you ridiculous bigotry. More of you moronic meme about gays vs. Christians. What is that I will see someday? I am seeing very clearly right now, and I see exactly what you are. I have existed on this earth for 71 years and I know a theocratic bigot when I encounter one.

 

[koshergrl]

People are individuals and imo everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis. That said, I have seen many homosexuals who clearly have a hatred for the biblical worldview, and hate the fact that there are people who think homosexuality is sinful or unnatural.

Really? Many "homosexuals"? Who are they? where are they? Most gay people do dot give a **** what the biblical bigots think as long as they leave the alone and do not pursue their bigoted agenda to take back their hard fought for rights. You people are entitled to believe in your fairy god father in the sky and gays have the right to be who they are and live accordingly. Again, as I have said many times before, to position the argument as the "gays vs Christians" is dishonest, irresponsible and just ******* stupid,

Well they care enough to plant faggots in the school and welfare systems, in order to indoctrinate and train children....

 

[buttercup]

There’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t just trying to defend the rights of LGBTQ. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.

You call it social engineering. I call it social and cultural evolution. People like you are fearful of change and progress and that is pathetic. You just can't get your thick head around the fact that we are evolving into a more secular and rational society. There is no organized plot to undermine " traditional biblical ideas" People just don't believe that nonsense any more

I knew you were going to say something like that. What you probably haven't even thought about is that the very word "progress" is meaningless according to your own worldview.

And you can dismiss it all you want, but there are powers who are pushing an agenda that is subversive and anti-Christian. You claim it's because it's what the people want. That is so naïve. What you don't seem to understand is that the reason the people are going in that direction is because they're being steered (indoctrinated) in that direction. People are easily manipulated. If you don't have a firm foundation, then you are so much more susceptible to being manipulated to believe just about anything. All it takes is some TV shows, movies, curriculum in public schools and manipulation by the media to change public opinion.

I could say more, but you and I have very different worldviews, so we're going to have to agree to disagree. You can't see any of this because it's as if you have a veil over your eyes. I understand that because I was that way once too. In fact, if you and I would have had this conversation 20 years ago, I probably would have agreed with a lot of what you're saying. I hope that we can at least agree on this… true wisdom is understanding that we don't know everything, and that there is so much to learn. Truth should always be the most important thing… and sometimes truth is not what we thought it was. It takes a modicum of humility and openness to the possibility of being wrong, because pride and stubbornness is extremely blinding.

 

[Uncensored2008]

... then gays should be allowed to discriminate against Christians.

Agree or Disagree?

Homosexuals already discriminate against Christians.

WTF are you talking about?


In a FREE society, any person may trade or NOT TRADE with anyone they choose, for any reason.

A baker is no more obligated to "bake the cake Christian" than I am to buy an over-priced coffee from Starbucks, or health care from Kaiser.... Oh, wait...

 

[Silhouette]

A baker is no more obligated to "bake the cake Christian" than I am to buy an over-priced coffee from Starbucks, or health care from Kaiser.... Oh, wait...

NEVER belong to an HMO. When your insurer is also your doctor, you become a bottom line as you age. They will kill you. Kaiser killed my father. Odd you would bring that up on father's day. Rest in peace Dad. The way they made you die was beyond torture. You would've been luckier at Gitmo.

 

[koshergrl]

A baker is no more obligated to "bake the cake Christian" than I am to buy an over-priced coffee from Starbucks, or health care from Kaiser.... Oh, wait...

NEVER belong to an HMO. When your insurer is also your doctor, you become a bottom line as you age. They will kill you. Kaiser killed my father. Odd you would bring that up on father's day. Rest in peace Dad. The way they made you die was beyond torture. You would've been luckier at Gitmo.

Death panels are real. My best friend is on one.

 

[Syriusly]

That's so contorted. No one who was involved in writing any law against sex discrimination meant that or even thought of it. You're parsing the words and making up a new meaning that was never intended. Sex discrimination means you're discriminating against a sex. He isn't. That ridiculous logic is exactly how the courts have fucked up justice in our legal system

I totally agree on two things. It's purely an academic discussion that Pops injected into the thread because Mr. Phillips case did not hinge on sex discrimination. You should be chastising him for injecting an unrelated issue. Secondly, the courts apply the law. The law in question specifically says "groups" in it's text. The ridiculous thing is that the law should be repealed and rights of property and association restored to private business entities. If so, then the whole treating religious views as special rights exempting business owners from generally applicable Public Accommodation laws goes away because any owner can refuse service for any reason.

If the law has the word “groups” in it, the prosecution is OBLIGATED to prove he has a “Bias against a GROUP”

Again, what “group” of a protected class is that BIAS practiced against when his policy is APPLIED EQUALLY.

Worldy, Pop is right here. Just give it up..

Pop- now that Silhouette agrees with you- aren't you now questioning your stance?

No, Sils arguments make complete sense

LOL well enjoy your ride with crazy town.

 

[Syriusly]

A baker is no more obligated to "bake the cake Christian" than I am to buy an over-priced coffee from Starbucks, or health care from Kaiser.... Oh, wait...

NEVER belong to an HMO. When your insurer is also your doctor, you become a bottom line as you age. They will kill you. Kaiser killed my father. Odd you would bring that up on father's day. Rest in peace Dad. The way they made you die was beyond torture. You would've been luckier at Gitmo.

Death panels are real. My best friend is on one.

Why is your best friend on a death panel?

 

[Syriusly]

Let's be honest: This has nothing to do with "discrimination." This is about gays using legalized gay marriage to harass and persecute Christian vendors. These gay couples don't really care if this or that Christian vendor declined to bake a cake for them, or to photograph their "wedding," or to set up flowers at their "wedding." They don't care about that. They quickly and easily made other arrangements. They saw an opportunity, and in some cases sought an opportunity, to harass and persecute Christian vendors. That's what this is really all about, and deep down we all know it.

Typical and well worn made up bigoted bovine excrement and the nasty gay people against the oh so virtuous Christians. Get the **** over it. You have no ******* idea what those gay people care about. Poor little innocent victim!!

People are individuals and imo everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis. That said, I have seen many homosexuals who clearly have a hatred for the biblical worldview, and hate the fact that there are people who think homosexuality is sinful or unnatural.

There’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t simply trying to defend the rights of the LGBTQ community. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.

Do you honestly think that these things always happen randomly and innocently? No, certain powers behind the scenes sometimes go out of their way to look for a fight, in order to create a court case to push their political/social agenda. The same thing happened with abortion. "Jane Roe", (Norma McCorvey, the woman behind Roe v. Wade) was used in order to push a particular agenda. She didn’t realize it at the time, but now she does.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. This is not simply about gay citizens…In many cases, they are being used as pawns. There are powers behind the scenes who are pushing a political agenda, and that agenda is subversive and anti-Christian. So of course they're going to target Christians. And there's actually even more to it than that, but I'm not going to get into all that because you wouldn't believe it or understand it. But just because you don't believe this, or you think it's crazy doesn't make it untrue. You'll see, someday. Mark my words.

The only way they believe they can be accepted is to be put on the same level as this other protected status that is not something you are born as.

They are not trying to lift themselves to that level, but bring religious belief down to theirs.

It’s already showing signs of failure

Well lets see what the protected status's are in Colorado- shall we?

Protected classes for places of public accommodation are: Race, Color, Disability, Sex, Sexual Orientation (including transgender status), National Origin/Ancestry, Creed, Marital Status and Retaliation

All of those protected classes- all using the law to demand that they be accepted......

 

[Syriusly]

Not as if gays are going around trying to pass laws making it illegal for people of faith to be hired as teachers. Oh right that is what people of faith did to gays- real persecution.

Well maybe school administrators have been to gay "pride" parades .

Silly Sillhouette.

Conservative Christians were busy trying to ban gays from teaching long before the first 'gay pride parade'- matter of fact you can probably do a timeline from efforts of Conservative Christians persecution of gays- by trying to deny them employment- to the first real gay pride parades which celebrated gays refusing to allow Christian Conservative persecution any more.

The homophobic bigots like to ignore the fact that gays in America suffered actual persecution from Conservative Christians- actual legal persecution intended to deny them employment- statewide laws to deny all gays employment- federal hiring practices- not to mention laws which could put gays in jail for having private consensual sex.

I don't think anyone should be persecuted for their faith- or for who they love.

But Christians being asked to follow the same law that protects Christians from discrimination? That is not persecution. If gays passed a law that said Christians couldn't teach in public schools- now that would be persecution.

 

[buttercup]

This post was from a few pages back, but I wanted to get back to it.

So, when it comes to things like this, I think one needs to look at all the arguments, weigh the evidence… and decide which one makes more sense and is more logical. I’ve put a lot of thought into this, and the view that morality is subjective results in lots of contradictions and absuThis post was from a few pages back, but I wanted to get back to it.rdities. I firmly believe that morality is objective..

Well that is your subjective opinion.

This is becoming very muddled. I want to try to make this more clear. Your reply above implies that there is no truth to the matter one way or the other. That is a good way to dismiss something and shut down discussion, but not so fast…

Yes, it was my opinion, but that doesn't make it subjective. I made an objective claim. In other words, I made a claim that is either true or false.

An objective moral standard either exists or it does not exist. I'm not saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." But I am saying that there is an actual truth, one way or the other. The question of the nature of morality is not subjective (a matter of personal taste) in the same way that the existence of God is not subjective. God either exists, or not. To claim that the existence of God or the existence of an objective moral standard is "subjective" is illogical.

One of us is right, and one of us is wrong, but we both can't be right at the same time. That is one of the most basic principles of logic, law of non-contradiction.

An objective truth is something that can be measured and can be proven- at least that is what I understand an objective truth to be.

2+2 = 4.
The sunrise on Earth will be to the east.

A subjective truth is what cannot be measured- and cannot be agreed upon by everyone.

Are you saying that only what can be proven scientifically is objective? If so, I disagree.

The principles of logic cannot be proven by science, but they are objective. Science presupposes logic.

A subjective truth is something that is related to the subject, (the person holding the idea), and it can change …it is simply a personal opinion, or preference or taste.

Objective truth does not change, and it is not dependent on us at all. It is what it is, whether we believe it or not.

Certainly you and I think that slavery is wrong. But for much of human history- many societies did not.

Our societies morals- changed- improved- so that we came to see slavery as morally wrong.

It doesn't matter how many people people believed it was right, or how many people believed it was wrong. Disagreement in and of itself doesn't make something subjective.

And then our laws changed to reflect that.

Just as some societies found some kinds of homosexuality morally wrong- and even killed homosexuals because of it.

Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of time. In fact, there were times in history when it was openly practiced, and pretty prevalent. I'm sure that at that time, they were many people who didn't think there was anything wrong with it. There have always been people who were for it or against it, and there will always be people who are for it or against it… So the idea that society overall has "progressed" in regard to their perception of homosexuality is misguided, imo.

I can see that you have some desire for a discussion of moral absolutes- but I am not much of an absolutist.

I know what I consider to be wrong- and I know why we have laws preventing much of what I consider to be wrong- while we also have laws I don't agree with- and also allow things I consider to be morally wrong.

But that is all subjective- which is why we as Americans disagree with many of these things/

It's actually not subjective. But again, that's a big topic, and not even the topic of this thread… So we can save that discussion for another time/thread.

 

[Pop23]

Let's be honest: This has nothing to do with "discrimination." This is about gays using legalized gay marriage to harass and persecute Christian vendors. These gay couples don't really care if this or that Christian vendor declined to bake a cake for them, or to photograph their "wedding," or to set up flowers at their "wedding." They don't care about that. They quickly and easily made other arrangements. They saw an opportunity, and in some cases sought an opportunity, to harass and persecute Christian vendors. That's what this is really all about, and deep down we all know it.

Typical and well worn made up bigoted bovine excrement and the nasty gay people against the oh so virtuous Christians. Get the **** over it. You have no ******* idea what those gay people care about. Poor little innocent victim!!

People are individuals and imo everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis. That said, I have seen many homosexuals who clearly have a hatred for the biblical worldview, and hate the fact that there are people who think homosexuality is sinful or unnatural.

There’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t simply trying to defend the rights of the LGBTQ community. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.

Do you honestly think that these things always happen randomly and innocently? No, certain powers behind the scenes sometimes go out of their way to look for a fight, in order to create a court case to push their political/social agenda. The same thing happened with abortion. "Jane Roe", (Norma McCorvey, the woman behind Roe v. Wade) was used in order to push a particular agenda. She didn’t realize it at the time, but now she does.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. This is not simply about gay citizens…In many cases, they are being used as pawns. There are powers behind the scenes who are pushing a political agenda, and that agenda is subversive and anti-Christian. So of course they're going to target Christians. And there's actually even more to it than that, but I'm not going to get into all that because you wouldn't believe it or understand it. But just because you don't believe this, or you think it's crazy doesn't make it untrue. You'll see, someday. Mark my words.

The only way they believe they can be accepted is to be put on the same level as this other protected status that is not something you are born as.

They are not trying to lift themselves to that level, but bring religious belief down to theirs.

It’s already showing signs of failure

Well lets see what the protected status's are in Colorado- shall we?

Protected classes for places of public accommodation are: Race, Color, Disability, Sex, Sexual Orientation (including transgender status), National Origin/Ancestry, Creed, Marital Status and Retaliation

All of those protected classes- all using the law to demand that they be accepted......

None of the others are trying to bring down one protected class to look more accepted by the general population though. Only Homosexuals.

 

[WorldWatcher]

No silly WW. He doesn’t offer that product.

You should tell that to Mr. Phillips who freely admits that he makes/made wedding cakes.

Ya, go with the logic that black (race of customer) wedding cakes, interracial wedding cakes, white (race of customer) wedding cakes, Jewish wedding cakes, Mexican wedding cakes, etc. - are different products. You'd be laughed out of court.

.>>>>

 

[Pop23]

No silly WW. He doesn’t offer that product.

You should tell that to Mr. Phillips who freely admits that he makes/made wedding cakes.

Ya, go with the logic that black (race of customer) wedding cakes, interracial wedding cakes, white (race of customer) wedding cakes, Jewish wedding cakes, Mexican wedding cakes, etc. - are different products. You'd be laughed out of court.

.>>>>

He only makes those that were available to the public prior to the change in the law and he makes those regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity. He does not make this new product for anyone, regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity.

And you've avoided the question as to the songwriter, that has written unique wedding songs for opposite sex couples, that would refuse to write a song about a same sex marriage on the basis that he can't write songs about things or events that he can't personally relate to.

Many of these songwriters would fall under the PA law. Is he violating the law, or is he protected by the First Amendment?

 

[koshergrl]

No silly WW. He doesn’t offer that product.

You should tell that to Mr. Phillips who freely admits that he makes/made wedding cakes.

Ya, go with the logic that black (race of customer) wedding cakes, interracial wedding cakes, white (race of customer) wedding cakes, Jewish wedding cakes, Mexican wedding cakes, etc. - are different products. You'd be laughed out of court.

.>>>>

He only makes those that were available to the public prior to the change in the law and he makes those regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity. He does not make this new product for anyone, regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity.

And you've avoided the question as to the songwriter, that has written unique wedding songs for opposite sex couples, that would refuse to write a song about a same sex marriage on the basis that he can't write songs about things or events that he can't personally relate to.

Many of these songwriters would fall under the PA law. Is he violating the law, or is he protected by the First Amendment?

Leftists think the law should be applied differently to them.

 

[WorldWatcher]

He only makes those that were available to the public prior to the change in the law and he makes those regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity. He does not make this new product for anyone, regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity.

He made wedding cakes prior to the change in the law. Just because the law changed with Loving v. Virginia doesn't mean that people could claim religious reasons for discriminating against blacks and interracial couples. See Newman v. Piggie Park and Bob Jones Univeristy.

And you've avoided the question as to the songwriter, that has written unique wedding songs for opposite sex couples, that would refuse to write a song about a same sex marriage on the basis that he can't write songs about things or events that he can't personally relate to.

Many of these songwriters would fall under the PA law. Is he violating the law, or is he protected by the First Amendment?

Songwriters typically are not a Public Accommodation business. The are independent contractors. Not the case with Masterpiece Cakeshop which is a business that even Mr. Phillips agrees falls under Public Accommodation laws, he's just asking for special rights to discriminate against gay couples based on his religion.


.>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

Leftists think the law should be applied differently to them.

Actually it's Mr. Phillips that is asking for a generally applicable law to applied to him.


.>>>>

 

[Pop23]

Let's look at this a bit differently.

A Customer comes into a Restaurant that the Owner knows from many previous visits. This customer is Black and a known Muslim. The Restaurant owner knows this because he always orders a BLT without the Bacon and has told the owner that the reason he orders the sandwich without Bacon is because he is a Muslim, and eating Bacon would be a sin.

Today the Owner takes the Man's order, but today the Muslim orders a BLT with Bacon.

The Owner tells the Man that he won't make him, or any known Muslim an order that includes Bacon. The Muslim insists. The Owner asks why? The Muslim says it's none of the Owners business and, since he makes BLT's for others, he demands he makes a BLT for him.

The Owner refuses and tells the Customer that he will not participate in another Man's Sin, that he feels that would make him a Sinner and violates, not the Customers religious freedom, but his, the Owner. (and WW, if you wan't to make this a hamburger/Bacon burger, feel free).

Should the Owner of the Cafe be held legally liable?