I would like to hear how teacher led prayer in public schools is constitutional

[JakeStarkey]

In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.

 

[blu]

In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.

just ignore lonestar if you want rational debate

 

[blu]

If it is voluntary, non-coercive, and unanimous.

No one is ever forced to participate in prayer.

are you purposely dense? the court rulings copied multiple times in this thread showed where teachers have been forced to pray under the threat of being fired and studnets forced under the threat of removal from the classroom

 

[Lonestar_logic]

In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.

Prayer in school is legal, students already have the right to pray voluntarily, as long as it's not disruptive. Fact is the public has a right to pray or not to pray and that right is protected under the 1st Amendment. If you don't like it, then seek to change it. But why should a few such as yourself dictate when, where or how the rest of society, which is the majority of Americans, can exercise their religious freedom?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

If it is voluntary, non-coercive, and unanimous.

No one is ever forced to participate in prayer.

are you purposely dense? the court rulings copied multiple times in this thread showed where teachers have been forced to pray under the threat of being fired and studnets forced under the threat of removal from the classroom

I've seen no such post in regards to forcing people to pray, perhaps you could provide a link.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.

just ignore lonestar if you want rational debate

Yes it's best you ignore opposing viewpoints, especially when you will end up losing the debate.

 

[blu]

No one is ever forced to participate in prayer.

are you purposely dense? the court rulings copied multiple times in this thread showed where teachers have been forced to pray under the threat of being fired and studnets forced under the threat of removal from the classroom

I've seen no such post in regards to forcing people to pray, perhaps you could provide a link.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...-schools-is-constitutional-4.html#post2644440

samson posted some other historical cases throughout the thread like too

 

[George Costanza]

In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.

Prayer in school is legal, students already have the right to pray voluntarily, as long as it's not disruptive. Fact is the public has a right to pray or not to pray and that right is protected under the 1st Amendment. If you don't like it, then seek to change it. But why should a few such as yourself dictate when, where or how the rest of society, which is the majority of Americans, can exercise their religious freedom?

Prayer in public school is legal, provided it is not mandated, part of the regular, school routine and is not disruptive. In other words, students can voluntarily pray in public school on an individual (or group) basis. The public has a right to pray or not to pray, and that right is protected by the First Amendment.

What you are doing here is what so many do - thinking that the Free Exercise clause trumps the Establishment clause, and it doesn't. People can do whatever they desire in the form of religious observance on a PRIVATE or INDIVIDUAL basis. That right is protected from GOVERNMENTAL interference by the Free Exercise clause.

When, however, an agent of the GOVERNMENT, such as a public school teacher or a public school itself, attempts to force religious observance on students, then the Establishment clause steps in and prevents it.

See the difference?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

are you purposely dense? the court rulings copied multiple times in this thread showed where teachers have been forced to pray under the threat of being fired and studnets forced under the threat of removal from the classroom

I've seen no such post in regards to forcing people to pray, perhaps you could provide a link.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...-schools-is-constitutional-4.html#post2644440

samson posted some other historical cases throughout the thread like too

Wow 1963, anything more recent?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

In other words, you cannot argue logically, rationally, and calmly, Lonestar. I get that. If I were teaching a class in public school or at university, I see no problems with you praying anytime as long as (1) don't interrupt my educationa process, and (2) your praying does not coerce your fellow students.

Prayer in school is legal, students already have the right to pray voluntarily, as long as it's not disruptive. Fact is the public has a right to pray or not to pray and that right is protected under the 1st Amendment. If you don't like it, then seek to change it. But why should a few such as yourself dictate when, where or how the rest of society, which is the majority of Americans, can exercise their religious freedom?

Prayer in public school is legal, provided it is not mandated, part of the regular, school routine or disruptive. In other words, students can voluntarily pray in public school on an individual (or group) basis. The public has a right to pray or not to pray, and that right is protected by the First Amendment.

What you are doing here is what so many do - thinking that the Free Exercise clause trumps the Establishment clause, and it doesn't. People can do whatever they desire in the form of religious observance on a PRIVATE or INDIVIDUAL basis. That right is protected from GOVERNMENTAL interference by the Free Exercise clause.

When, however, an agent of the GOVERNMENT, such as a public school teacher or a public school itself, attempts to force religious observance on students, then the Establishment clause steps in and prevents it.

See the difference?

If there is no mandate, then there is no violation of the establishment clause. My argument is a person or even a student body has a constitutionally protected right to pray when and where they choose. When a group of kids kneel to pray before a football game, they are not forcing anyone to pray with them, whoever doesn't want to participate has the right to walk away or just sit there and ignore the prayer, but they don't have the right to stop the others that choose to pray from praying.

 

[maineman]

Prayer in school is legal, students already have the right to pray voluntarily, as long as it's not disruptive. Fact is the public has a right to pray or not to pray and that right is protected under the 1st Amendment. If you don't like it, then seek to change it. But why should a few such as yourself dictate when, where or how the rest of society, which is the majority of Americans, can exercise their religious freedom?

Prayer in public school is legal, provided it is not mandated, part of the regular, school routine or disruptive. In other words, students can voluntarily pray in public school on an individual (or group) basis. The public has a right to pray or not to pray, and that right is protected by the First Amendment.

What you are doing here is what so many do - thinking that the Free Exercise clause trumps the Establishment clause, and it doesn't. People can do whatever they desire in the form of religious observance on a PRIVATE or INDIVIDUAL basis. That right is protected from GOVERNMENTAL interference by the Free Exercise clause.

When, however, an agent of the GOVERNMENT, such as a public school teacher or a public school itself, attempts to force religious observance on students, then the Establishment clause steps in and prevents it.

See the difference?

If there is no mandate, then there is no violation of the establishment clause. My argument is a person or even a student body has a constitutionally protected right to pray when and where they choose. When a group of kids kneel to pray before a football game, they are not forcing anyone to pray with them, whoever doesn't want to participate has the right to walk away or just sit there and ignore the prayer, but they don't have the right to stop the others that choose to pray from praying.

I actually must say that I do not find much to argue with in that statement.... if the students/team members decide amongst themselves to pray, that is perfectly acceptable. If the coach, as an agent of the school/government, attempts to lead that prayer, I think I would have a problem at that point.

 

[blu]

I've seen no such post in regards to forcing people to pray, perhaps you could provide a link.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...-schools-is-constitutional-4.html#post2644440

samson posted some other historical cases throughout the thread like too

Wow 1963, anything more recent?

cases like this one are big factors in why there isn't teacher led prayer / forced prayer as much anymore.

 

[George Costanza]

Prayer in public school is legal, provided it is not mandated, part of the regular, school routine or disruptive. In other words, students can voluntarily pray in public school on an individual (or group) basis. The public has a right to pray or not to pray, and that right is protected by the First Amendment.

What you are doing here is what so many do - thinking that the Free Exercise clause trumps the Establishment clause, and it doesn't. People can do whatever they desire in the form of religious observance on a PRIVATE or INDIVIDUAL basis. That right is protected from GOVERNMENTAL interference by the Free Exercise clause.

When, however, an agent of the GOVERNMENT, such as a public school teacher or a public school itself, attempts to force religious observance on students, then the Establishment clause steps in and prevents it.

See the difference?

If there is no mandate, then there is no violation of the establishment clause. My argument is a person or even a student body has a constitutionally protected right to pray when and where they choose. When a group of kids kneel to pray before a football game, they are not forcing anyone to pray with them, whoever doesn't want to participate has the right to walk away or just sit there and ignore the prayer, but they don't have the right to stop the others that choose to pray from praying.

I actually must say that I do not find much to argue with in that statement.... if the students/team members decide amongst themselves to pray, that is perfectly acceptable. If the coach, as an agent of the school/government, attempts to lead that prayer, I think I would have a problem at that point.

I agree also - with this one caveat. Let's not ooze over from true, voluntary prayer duing school hours, with a school policy that allows for "voluntary prayer" during regularly scheduled classes, by students "who wish to participate," when all class members are present, i.e., both those who wish to participate and those who do not.

This type of school prayer is NOT allowed because it is a de facto violation of the 1st Amendment. As Bodecea has noted in her post on this thread, the United States Supreme Court has ruled on this one a number of times. The reason it is violative is quite simple: the coercive atmosphere of teacher-sanctioned, organized prayer, would put undue pressure on the non-praying students to either get with it and start praying themselves, or not (and feel uncomfortable).

You may not agree with this latter analysis of the situation, but that is nonetheless, the law per the U.S. Supremes.

 

[Smartt33]

Argument...Argument...Argument!!!

Here is my take on it. I agree that we should never force anyone to pray in public schools, etc. I agree that leading a class in prayer, making it manditory for them to participate would be inappropriate. At least in this day and time. Today, leading a class in prayer would be considered forcing it. In days gone by, it would not have been considered forced. It would just be considered routine, and a good thing. I remember when...and it was good.

Today, God and His word, and the speaking of it, is very restricted, and continually getting more restricted. That is indeed unconstitutional. However, God doesn't care about the Constitution. He cares about people so...When God leads me to pray, or to pray with a student, I will. Why? Besause when we render unto God that which is His, and caesar that which is His, I render myself unto God. Take me to prison if you wish, I will just pray there too.

Sharing my faith is also restricted speach these days. That too is unconstitutional. God doesn't care. When God leads me to share my faith, I will. Many of the disciples went to jail for that. I am no better than they are, and I ain't gonna be luke warm with God's Word.

With all of that said, I am very sensitive to the circumstances around me. I care about not intentionally offending people. I don't want to make people angry. I try to share from my heart when there is a person hurting, but guess what is in my heart? Jesus and His mighty Word. His Word, when He is leading is NEVER wrong. Love (Agape love) is the factor that makes the difference. Only people who are filled with the Holy Spirit know that love, and experience it flowing through them. Scripture says that against the flowing of that love "there is no law." (Check out the fruit of the Spirit)

This was a boldly written piece, but it was not to strike up arguments, just to say that God is the one that believers must follow.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Then, Smart33, be ready to be removed from a classroom. (1) do not disrupt the educational process, (2) do not coerce others.

 

[Smartt33]

Then, Smart33, be ready to be removed from a classroom. (1) do not disrupt the educational process, (2) do not coerce others.

If that happens, I will leave knowing that I did what was right. I haven't been threatened yet with that because I am, as I have said, sensitive to the people around me. I have no intention of offending or forcing anything. I respect people and pay attention to my surroundings. God has a way of not only leading, but also softly presenting what He wants to be said. He is also sensitive to people, especially the ones He leads me to talk to.

So. I am not really worried. You don't need worry either.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I shan't then.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

please explain this to me because it baffles my mind

Explain how federal schools are constitutional?
When the country was founded many states has state religions.
The founders were in agreement teaching Christianity was necessary to have a virtuous society that could self govern.

How much better we are as a nation since we have a giant central government
that makes pronouncements for individual states .
So much for self government .