Zone1 I am stepping away from Judaism

Christians believe he did.

Jews believe that was not his intent, and the one who did it was Paul.
Hi Lisa; I'm a dyed in the wool RC and from what I can gather we're simply goy Jews in the sense that Jesus came to fulfil the promises of God in the old Testament. I respect and love our roots in Judaism and frankly see the whole debate on that as somewhat of a yawn. Already covered in some old books I read.

I answer that, Without any doubt, the Old Law was good. For just as a doctrine is shown to be good by the fact that it accords with right reason, so is a law proved to be good if it accords with reason. Now the Old Law was in accordance with reason. Because it repressed concupiscence which is in conflict with reason, as evidenced by the commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods" (Exodus 20:17). Moreover the same law forbade all kinds of sin; and these too are contrary to reason. Consequently it is evident that it was a good law. The Apostle argues in the same way (Romans 7): "I am delighted," says he (verse 22), "with the law of God, according to the inward man": and again (verse 16): "I consent to the law, that is good."

But it must be noted that the good has various degrees, as Dionysius states (Div. Nom. iv): for there is a perfect good, and an imperfect good. In things ordained to an end, there is perfect goodness when a thing is such that it is sufficient in itself to conduce to the end: while there is imperfect goodness when a thing is of some assistance in attaining the end, but is not sufficient for the realization thereof. Thus a medicine is perfectly good, if it gives health to a man; but it is imperfect, if it helps to cure him, without being able to bring him back to health. Again it must be observed that the end of human law is different from the end of Divine law. For the end of human law is the temporal tranquillity of the state, which end law effects by directing external actions, as regards those evils which might disturb the peaceful condition of the state. On the other hand, the end of the Divine law is to bring man to that end which is everlasting happiness; which end is hindered by any sin, not only of external, but also of internal action. Consequently that which suffices for the perfection of human law, viz. the prohibition and punishment of sin, does not suffice for the perfection of the Divine law: but it is requisite that it should make man altogether fit to partake of everlasting happiness. Now this cannot be done save by the grace of the Holy Ghost, whereby "charity" which fulfilleth the law . . . "is spread abroad in our hearts" (Romans 5:5): since "the grace of God is life everlasting" (Romans 6:23). But the Old Law could not confer this grace, for this was reserved to Christ; because, as it is written (John 1:17), the law was given "by Moses, grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." Consequently the Old Law was good indeed, but imperfect, according to Hebrews 7:19: "The law brought nothing to perfection."
I answer that, The Old Law was given by the good God, Who is the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. For the Old Law ordained men to Christ in two ways. First by bearing witness to Christ; wherefore He Himself says (Luke 24:44): "All things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law . . . and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me": and (John 5:46): "If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe Me also; for he wrote of Me." Secondly, as a kind of disposition, since by withdrawing men from idolatrous worship, it enclosed [concludebat] them in the worship of one God, by Whom the human race was to be saved through Christ. Wherefore the Apostle says (Galatians 3:23): "Before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up [conclusi], unto that faith which was to be revealed." Now it is evident that the same thing it is, which gives a disposition to the end, and which brings to the end; and when I say "the same," I mean that it does so either by itself or through its subjects. For the devil would not make a law whereby men would be led to Christ, Who was to cast him out, according to Matthew 12:26: "If Satan cast out Satan, his kingdom is divided" [Vulgate: 'he is divided against himself']. Therefore the Old Law was given by the same God, from Whom came salvation to man, through the grace of Christ.
I answer that, It might be assigned as a reason for the Law being given to the Jews rather than to other peoples, that the Jewish people alone remained faithful to the worship of one God, while the others turned away to idolatry; wherefore the latter were unworthy to receive the Law, lest a holy thing should be given to dogs.

But this reason does not seem fitting: because that people turned to idolatry, even after the Law had been made, which was more grievous, as is clear from Exodus 32 and from Amos 5:25-26: "Did you offer victims and sacrifices to Me in the desert for forty years, O house of Israel? But you carried a tabernacle for your Moloch, and the image of your idols, the star of your god, which you made to yourselves." Moreover it is stated expressly (Deuteronomy 9:6): "Know therefore that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this excellent land in possession for thy justices, for thou art a very stiff-necked people": but the real reason is given in the preceding verse: "That the Lord might accomplish His word, which He promised by oath to thy fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

What this promise was is shown by the Apostle, who says (Galatians 3:16) that "to Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, 'And to his seeds,' as of many: but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ." And so God vouchsafed both the Law and other special boons to that people, on account of the promised made to their fathers that Christ should be born of them. For it was fitting that the people, of whom Christ was to be born, should be signalized by a special sanctification, according to the words of Leviticus 19:2: "Be ye holy, because I . . . am holy." Nor again was it on account of the merit of Abraham himself that this promise was made to him, viz. that Christ should be born of his seed: but of gratuitous election and vocation. Hence it is written (Isaiah 41:2): "Who hath raised up the just one form the east, hath called him to follow him?"

It is therefore evident that it was merely from gratuitous election that the patriarchs received the promise, and that the people sprung from them received the law; according to Deuteronomy 4:36-37: "Ye did [Vulgate: 'Thou didst'] hear His words out of the midst of the fire, because He loved thy fathers, and chose their seed after them." And if again it asked why He chose this people, and not another, that Christ might be born thereof; a fitting answer is given by Augustine (Tract. super Joan. xxvi): "Why He draweth one and draweth not another, seek not thou to judge, if thou wish not to err."


Some really good stuff in that.

Greg
 
Hi Lisa; I'm a dyed in the wool RC and from what I can gather we're simply goy Jews in the sense that Jesus came to fulfil the promises of God in the old Testament. I respect and love our roots in Judaism and frankly see the whole debate on that as somewhat of a yawn. Already covered in some old books I read.

I answer that, Without any doubt, the Old Law was good. For just as a doctrine is shown to be good by the fact that it accords with right reason, so is a law proved to be good if it accords with reason. Now the Old Law was in accordance with reason. Because it repressed concupiscence which is in conflict with reason, as evidenced by the commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods" (Exodus 20:17). Moreover the same law forbade all kinds of sin; and these too are contrary to reason. Consequently it is evident that it was a good law. The Apostle argues in the same way (Romans 7): "I am delighted," says he (verse 22), "with the law of God, according to the inward man": and again (verse 16): "I consent to the law, that is good."

But it must be noted that the good has various degrees, as Dionysius states (Div. Nom. iv): for there is a perfect good, and an imperfect good. In things ordained to an end, there is perfect goodness when a thing is such that it is sufficient in itself to conduce to the end: while there is imperfect goodness when a thing is of some assistance in attaining the end, but is not sufficient for the realization thereof. Thus a medicine is perfectly good, if it gives health to a man; but it is imperfect, if it helps to cure him, without being able to bring him back to health. Again it must be observed that the end of human law is different from the end of Divine law. For the end of human law is the temporal tranquillity of the state, which end law effects by directing external actions, as regards those evils which might disturb the peaceful condition of the state. On the other hand, the end of the Divine law is to bring man to that end which is everlasting happiness; which end is hindered by any sin, not only of external, but also of internal action. Consequently that which suffices for the perfection of human law, viz. the prohibition and punishment of sin, does not suffice for the perfection of the Divine law: but it is requisite that it should make man altogether fit to partake of everlasting happiness. Now this cannot be done save by the grace of the Holy Ghost, whereby "charity" which fulfilleth the law . . . "is spread abroad in our hearts" (Romans 5:5): since "the grace of God is life everlasting" (Romans 6:23). But the Old Law could not confer this grace, for this was reserved to Christ; because, as it is written (John 1:17), the law was given "by Moses, grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." Consequently the Old Law was good indeed, but imperfect, according to Hebrews 7:19: "The law brought nothing to perfection."
I answer that, The Old Law was given by the good God, Who is the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. For the Old Law ordained men to Christ in two ways. First by bearing witness to Christ; wherefore He Himself says (Luke 24:44): "All things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law . . . and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me": and (John 5:46): "If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe Me also; for he wrote of Me." Secondly, as a kind of disposition, since by withdrawing men from idolatrous worship, it enclosed [concludebat] them in the worship of one God, by Whom the human race was to be saved through Christ. Wherefore the Apostle says (Galatians 3:23): "Before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up [conclusi], unto that faith which was to be revealed." Now it is evident that the same thing it is, which gives a disposition to the end, and which brings to the end; and when I say "the same," I mean that it does so either by itself or through its subjects. For the devil would not make a law whereby men would be led to Christ, Who was to cast him out, according to Matthew 12:26: "If Satan cast out Satan, his kingdom is divided" [Vulgate: 'he is divided against himself']. Therefore the Old Law was given by the same God, from Whom came salvation to man, through the grace of Christ.
I answer that, It might be assigned as a reason for the Law being given to the Jews rather than to other peoples, that the Jewish people alone remained faithful to the worship of one God, while the others turned away to idolatry; wherefore the latter were unworthy to receive the Law, lest a holy thing should be given to dogs.

But this reason does not seem fitting: because that people turned to idolatry, even after the Law had been made, which was more grievous, as is clear from Exodus 32 and from Amos 5:25-26: "Did you offer victims and sacrifices to Me in the desert for forty years, O house of Israel? But you carried a tabernacle for your Moloch, and the image of your idols, the star of your god, which you made to yourselves." Moreover it is stated expressly (Deuteronomy 9:6): "Know therefore that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this excellent land in possession for thy justices, for thou art a very stiff-necked people": but the real reason is given in the preceding verse: "That the Lord might accomplish His word, which He promised by oath to thy fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

What this promise was is shown by the Apostle, who says (Galatians 3:16) that "to Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, 'And to his seeds,' as of many: but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ." And so God vouchsafed both the Law and other special boons to that people, on account of the promised made to their fathers that Christ should be born of them. For it was fitting that the people, of whom Christ was to be born, should be signalized by a special sanctification, according to the words of Leviticus 19:2: "Be ye holy, because I . . . am holy." Nor again was it on account of the merit of Abraham himself that this promise was made to him, viz. that Christ should be born of his seed: but of gratuitous election and vocation. Hence it is written (Isaiah 41:2): "Who hath raised up the just one form the east, hath called him to follow him?"

It is therefore evident that it was merely from gratuitous election that the patriarchs received the promise, and that the people sprung from them received the law; according to Deuteronomy 4:36-37: "Ye did [Vulgate: 'Thou didst'] hear His words out of the midst of the fire, because He loved thy fathers, and chose their seed after them." And if again it asked why He chose this people, and not another, that Christ might be born thereof; a fitting answer is given by Augustine (Tract. super Joan. xxvi): "Why He draweth one and draweth not another, seek not thou to judge, if thou wish not to err."


Some really good stuff in that.

Greg
Before I dive into all that, what’s an RC?
 
My bad, I just figured Jewish values and Israeli values were synonymous. What's are the major differences between the two?
Israel is a political entity. Judaism is a religion. Israel's values are steeped in political expediency with a backdrop of religious identity.
 
Wait. Are you talking about Israel now? Because you just argued I was wrong to be comparing Israeli values with Judaic values, right?
No, I was talking about Judaism.
 
In what sense were you ever really in the community you are walking away from? Best of luck, but your next step is to use the same logic and walk away from the human race.
Depends on if we can really count Orcs as a human race at all. Biologically, as they were described by Tolkien - they are humans. But the rules of the most games do separate them.
But The Horde will welcome everyone who truly wants to be a part of it.
 
Israel is a political entity. Judaism is a religion. Israel's values are steeped in political expediency with a backdrop of religious identity.
All I can say is that Israel's position on gay marriage and abortion - which I believe is influenced by their religious beliefs - seems to be at odds with the Democratic Party platform. And the Democratic Party's position on God and Israel seems to be at odds with Israel.

So as far as I am concerned I still think the disconnect between the two is a head scratcher.
 
How so? More towards the right or left in Israel? Or was the shift in America? Or are you talking about Democrats?

Note: When I refer to American Jews in this response, I refer solely to the Reform and Conservative congregations. The, "let's look as much like protestants so we don't upset the neighbors" congregations. The non-observant, socially hyper-sensitive congregations that, until recent years, account for 95% of Jews that you will see in assimilated, mainstream society.

American Jews have a historical connection with liberal America that is over 100 years old. The American Jewish community that participates most in society were early supporters of Women's Suffrage, of Trade Unionism, of Civil Rights.

Most of those who settled Israel in the first half of the last century were of the same stripe. They were ideologically identical. Israel today still remains the most socially liberal nation for 10,000 miles in any direction. In many ways, much more socially liberal than America.

When Israel was fighting for it's existence in the '30s and '40s, American Jews were 100% behind them. Sending money, sending farm equipment. Ideological sons and daughters of American Jews flocked to Israel to build a Jewish State, a secular, socially liberal Jewish state.

When the destruction of Israel at the hands of Arab Armies was imminent, in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, the attackers were Arab countries with tanks, jets, missiles, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Moreover, they were sovereign countries whose sought to destroy Israel over a hatred of the Jewish state. There was no mention of liberation or them being oppressed by Jews. They simply hated Israel and wanted to kill all the Jews.

American Jews responded to these invasions with 100% support. American Jews gave blood, sent money, and ... in some cases ... rushed to Israel to help the fight (most of these wars were over so fast no one in America had time to buy a plane ticket to Israel).

It was after the humiliating defeat of Arab Armies once again in 1973 that Arab leaders finally realized that not only could they not destroy Israel with their massive armies. They looked bad every time they tried. Their leaders looked like failures to their people (a fatal error in Arab culture). They lost international aid and trade. They lost the support of international opinion (even among the Jew haters of Europe and America).

So, they changed tactics. They began to send their proxy fighters to attack Israel. The groups like The PLO, Hezbollah, ANO, PIJJ, Hamas, and many others, attacked Jews (and Americans who they thought might support Jews) with small-scale, low-tech attacks. Bombings, hijackings, targeted assassinations, and other tactics.

They went from looking like invading armies, to a rag-tag group of revolutionaries. They labeled themselves "freedom fighters" despite the fact they were fighting for no one's freedoms.

This image was harder for American Jews ... with their almost universally liberal bent ... to 100% denounce. The cracks in the support began to develop and grow.

Once the liberal media stopped referring to Arab aggression and started reporting on Palestinian resistance, the choice had to be made in the American Jewish community. "Do I want to follow the socially liberal doctrine and keep my liberal friends and still belong to my liberal organizations ... or ... do I want support my fellow Jews in Israel?".

For many, they decided Jews in Israel were so far away and being a card-carry member of The ACLU, the Urban League, Freedom Caucus, and others was much more important.

Israel hasn't changed in the past nearly 100 years ... it remains overwhelmingly socially liberal but also dedicated to fighting for their own survival. American Jews haven't changed, they remain overwhelmingly socially liberal first and Jewish second.

The only thing that has changed is the message. Israel has gone from being portrayed in the media as the scrappy, little country of survivors surrounded by bloodthirsty enemies and now they are being portrayed as colonialist war mongers who oppress the darker people around them.

Remember, the reality of the situation hasn't changed. Israel is still one of the most socially liberal countries on this planet and is still surrounded by bloodthirsty enemies ... but the liberal media refuses to acknowledge this.

That is the cause of the rift between many American Jews and Israelis
 
Its time to leave the faith.

You're right, Zog, I don't understand. Lots of antisemites, I get that, this has always been so.
Lots of a-holes on this site, I get that.
Lots of Jews still support the democrats--- that I never understood.
What any of that has to do with your own faith, I don't get, sounds like you are letting them win, practice the faith you wish, but if that cannot be Judaism, I hope you find another.
 
You're right, Zog, I don't understand. Lots of antisemites, I get that, this has always been so.
Lots of a-holes on this site, I get that.
Lots of Jews still support the democrats--- that I never understood.
What any of that has to do with your own faith, I don't get, sounds like you are letting them win, practice the faith you wish, but if that cannot be Judaism, I hope you find another.
We. My own people are the problem. I hate them. Jews who are Democrats.
 
Remember, the reality of the situation hasn't changed. Israel is still one of the most socially liberal countries on this planet and is still surrounded by bloodthirsty enemies ... but the liberal media refuses to acknowledge this.

the israel of democrat truman is no more ...

1732410367299.webp


they too now vote for criminals and opportunist as the reversionist u s

in the name of religion those same people throughout history - persecution and victimization as their means for success.
 
the israel of democrat truman is no more ...

View attachment 1045812

they too now vote for criminals and opportunist as the reversionist u s

in the name of religion those same people throughout history - persecution and victimization as their means for success.

There is no need for you to respond to this ... it wasn't written for Jew haters.

Because, if you were capable of any type of self-reflection or critical analysis, you wouldn't be a Jew hater in the first place.
 
I have been posting here but rarely. I even walked away for a while. Recent events have made me understand my culture and faith on a higher level. I am a Jew, a son of parents whose parents fought the Nazis in the old Soviet Union. I lost a vast amount of my ancestors to WW2 and the Holocaust. There are very few of us left in the world. The vitriol against Jews remains high. With my kids ready for college, I cannot have them be under fire because of the hatred. We saw on our college campuses how most colleges took the side of protesters and even told Jewish students to study remotely. They cancelled graduations. They appeased those who would call for the end of Israel and for blatant antisemitism.

What unified both the far left and far right is their hatred of Jews. I get it form the Left. They see Jews as wealthy oppressors and white. That to them means evil. I see it from the Nazi alt right too. They want Hitler to finish what he started. What was troubling is that the moderates began to hate too.

Why?

Then it came to me. We bring this upon ourselves. People like Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, Chuck Schumer, Jeffrey Katzenberg, Alejandro Mayorkas (yes he is a Jew), etc.

Let’s take Schiff for example. He bashed Hur for calling Biden a senile old man only to now ask Biden to step down because, well he is a senile old man. Why? Their lies were exposed. Schiff always knew this but lied to the American people. This feeds into the hateful narrative that Jews are deceitful.

Many, hell most Jews still vote Democrat despite the party overtly telling us they don’t want our vote just our money.

The faith is no longer with me. I ll pretend while my parents are still here. But once they are gone, so goes my faith and allegiance to Judaism. Same for my kids.

We are all walking away.

I share this here because despite all the hate this site has, it also has honesty and I respect that.

Writing this will likely result in some posts slamming me. And that’s fine. Actually therapeutic. In the end while I despise low life antisemites, I have to admit that I despise Democrat Jews equally.

Its time to leave the faith.

Thank you for reading.
As one of the tribe you should not leave the faith. I believe differently than you, I do, but be a good Heeb.
My 1st love never would have left the faith. :nono:
She was a good little princess.
 
There is no need for you to respond to this ... it wasn't written for Jew haters.

Because, if you were capable of any type of self-reflection or critical analysis, you wouldn't be a Jew hater in the first place.

liar ...

the repudiation of the liar moses their false commandments, abraham's hereditary idolatry et al is the reference for the hatred jews use to persecute and victimize the innocent - your problem not mine.
 
All I can say is that Israel's position on gay marriage and abortion - which I believe is influenced by their religious beliefs - seems to be at odds with the Democratic Party platform. And the Democratic Party's position on God and Israel seems to be at odds with Israel.

So as far as I am concerned I still think the disconnect between the two is a head scratcher.
While the republican conservative ("family values") agenda was driven (historically) by a Christian religious sensibility whole Jews struggled to find a Jewish position which included less religious entanglement in government policy. The party which supported rights for outsiders (which included Jews) was the democratic party.
 
Back
Top Bottom