How we know Hitler was right wing.

[Agit8r]

Do you deny that modern china is a socialist nation? They are allowing private ownership of industry....certiain people are becoming very rich in china today....but only the most profound idiot would claim that china today is not a socialist nation.

now the argument has come full circle

 

[SSDD]

Hitler excluded himself. I expounded on all this in post 264.

You provided some revisionist history. I provided hitler's own words. Hitler said "our socialism"....our is a posessive pronoun. He took posession of socialism. He expressed that idea in correspondence to Herman Rasuchinning.

Your quote ("Our socialism") gives no link or context but looks very much like Hitler distinguishing what he was about from the term "socialism" ("our" socialism distinguished from "standard" socialism)

"Standard" socialism? Are you kidding? There is the philosophy of socialism and then there are the various ways the idea is carried out. Each socialist leader has his own method. There is no step by step guide for instituting socialism. Hitler was socialist.

 

[SSDD]

Believe it. The idea that "right = less govt and left = more govt" is a hopelessly simplistic contemporary dumbdown. Reagan loved to sell that line. It's still hard to believe anybody bought it.
(That is, he sold it, then proceeded to grow the government. Go figure.)

Try reading the Constitution. That is a statement of true conservativism or classical liberalism. Would you like to live under such an unobtrusive government? Would you really want to live under a government who saw its rightful duty as negotiating treaties, protecting the borders, and delivering the mail, and protecting your inalienable rights....not to be confused with "civil" rights?

Our government didn't start getting really intrusive till FDR and his socialist expansion of government.

 

[SSDD]

Uh. Mah. God. It was right in front of us all the time. This is deep. So deep. (dons hip boots)

It has been right in front of you all the time. Why didn't you get it? Or more to the point, why couldn't you accept it?

 

[SSDD]

Ideologues and politically interested parties interest themselves in what government does, not how big it is. Do you buy a car on the basis of what color it is?

What government does is a product of how big it is. The US government, when it operated within the boundries of the classically liberal, or conservative constitution was quite small for a nation of our size. A small government is unable to be very intrusive into the lives of its people. Socialism requires an intrusive government and a government must be large in order to be intrusive.

Try climbing out of your box and think in real world terms.

 

[Saigon]

You provided some revisionist history.

No, what Pogo posted is very much recorded history, confirmed by a dozen objective sources. You then rejected this without having read it. Once again, YOU are the person here rejecting history.

Hitler said "our socialism"....our is a posessive pronoun. He took posession of socialism.

Stupid and dishonest. How many times do you need to have this explained to you? Ten times? Twenty?

The German Nazi Führer Adolf Hitler had objected to the party's previous leader's decision to use the word "Socialist" in its name, as Hitler at the time preferred to use "Social Revolutionary".[16] Upon taking over the leadership, Hitler kept the term but defined socialism as being based upon a commitment of an individual to a community.[16] Hitler did not want the ideology's socialism to be conflated with Marxian socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

 

[SSDD]

Firstly, small government is very much an American concept - not a global one.

That would be because individual freedom and a government instituted to protect that freedom is an American concept. Any goverment whose entire purpose for being is not to protect the rights of the soveriegn individual is to the left of the government described in our Constitution.

 

[SSDD]

ALL history books tells us that Hitler was right wing, child - the only person saying
otherwise is you.

Revisionist history books tell us that. Informative history books tell us what hitler said and did and rely on our own knowledge of the subject to determine what is political philosophy was. Any book that tells us what to think about his political philosophy is revisionist.

History is informative...it doesn't tell you what to think

 

[Saigon]

Do you deny that modern china is a socialist nation? They are allowing private ownership of industry....certiain people are becoming very rich in china today....but only the most profound idiot would claim that china today is not a socialist nation.

now the argument has come full circle

Indeed....I never again thought I would see the day when China would be used as the poster boy for socialism!!

China has a COMMUNIST government.

China has a mixed Communist/Capitalist economy, as does Viet Nam.

Ideologically this makes no sense, of course, but it is what it is.

 

[SSDD]

Thomas Jefferson was a liberal.

Next...

Take a minute to google classical liberal...which is what Thomas Jefferson was....then google modern liberal which is what you are.

If you can read, contrast the differences. Classical liberalism is know today as conservativism. Modern liberalism is socialism to one degree or another.

 

[Saigon]

ALL history books tells us that Hitler was right wing, child - the only person saying
otherwise is you.

Revisionist history books tell us that. Informative history books tell us what hitler said and did and rely on our own knowledge of the subject to determine what is political philosophy was. Any book that tells us what to think about his political philosophy is revisionist.

History is informative...it doesn't tell you what to think

You have no knowledge of the subject - that is precisely why you find this so difficult to understand.

You flat out refuse to read "informative" history because you know that it would not confirm your own laughable world view.

If you read real history - not revisionism, not socialism, not fascism - but REAL history, then you may come to understand what everyone else understands.

Read Kershaw, Marris, Arendt, Overy and Montefiore. None of socialists, none are left wing, none are revisionists, and none are propaganda. You have read none of them.

For gods sake man - why are you so afraid of reading?!

Books do not tell us what to think - they teach us to think.

 

[SSDD]

You have no knowledge of the subject - that is precisely why you find this so difficult to understand.

And yet, you are the one denying that a man who self identified as socialist was not socialist.

 

[SSDD]

China has a COMMUNIST government.

Socialist...Communist....two shades of the same color.

 

[Saigon]

You have no knowledge of the subject - that is precisely why you find this so difficult to understand.

And yet, you are the one denying that a man who self identified as socialist was not socialist.

Exactly - because as I have posted now at least 5 times -

"The German Nazi Führer Adolf Hitler had objected to the party's previous leader's decision to use the word "Socialist" in its name, as Hitler at the time preferred to use "Social Revolutionary".[16] Upon taking over the leadership, Hitler kept the term but defined socialism as being based upon a commitment of an individual to a community.[16] Hitler did not want the ideology's socialism to be conflated with Marxian socialism."

Why does something have to be posted ten times before you understand it?

 

[Saigon]

China has a COMMUNIST government.

Socialist...Communist....two shades of the same color.

Yes, and orange and red are also shades of the same colour - but they are not the same colour.

It is important to use terms correctly, because the terms have defined meanings.

Communism is more extreme than Socialism, and includes many features not generally evident in socialist societies because Socialism has often been seen as a step on the road to Communism.

 

[Agit8r]

China has a COMMUNIST government.

Socialist...Communist....two shades of the same color.

Yes, and orange and red are also shades of the same colour - but they are not the same colour.

It is important to use terms correctly, because the terms have defined meanings.

Communism is more extreme than Socialism, and includes many features not generally evident in socialist societies because Socialism has often been seen as a step on the road to Communism.

I think some of the confusion comes about because people think that social-democracy and socialism are the same thing and that socialism and communism are the same thing, and therefore social-democracy and communism are the same thing, or--in the case of these extreme troglodytes--that social-democracy and fascism/Nazism are the same thing.

Of course social-democracy doesn't have the same human rights record that either fascism or communism had, it actively opposed both, and was actively suppressed by both. So when people want to suppress social democracy nowadays (and no less by thuggish political maneuvers, along with constant threats of violent insurgency), we have a pretty good idea where they are coming from :[

 

[bripat9643]

Sweden is a welfare state, as is Norway. They aren't any more "socialist" than the United States.

Really?

So the fact that both regimes (Palme, Haarlem Brundtland) offered universal healthcare, state-funded abortion, raised spending on development aid, raised immigration and refugee numbers, provided free education from cradle to grave, and that both governments included Socialist Parties in government is no different from the US?

Our government provides all the same things. The Democrats are the socialist party in the USA. they have been in control of our government for most of the last 80 years.

My God man....I don't know why it is that you, Rottie and SSDD don't read history books, but you must see yourself what it costs you.

You pretensions of intellectual superiority are charming if not illuminating. I have read thousands of books. I just don't restrict my reading to Marxist propaganda like you.

 

[bripat9643]

Locke -

I am sure you aware (from the OP if nowhere else) that Hitler devoted his life to destroying Marxism, but your post does not seem to reflect that reality.

He hated Marxism, not socialism. You keep trying to ignore that fact no matter how many times someone informs you of it.

 

[bripat9643]

You don't have to read many chapters of Mein Kampf to understand how deeply Hitler hated Marxism. And the National Socialist Party was merely a vehicle Hitler used to gain power. The Night of the Long Knives put an abrupt end to the socialist in the party.

I love the way libtuds insist they know what Hitler's real agenda was even though he apparently kept it a secret from the entire world.

The Night of the Long Knives (German: About this sound Nacht der langen Messer (help·info)), sometimes called Operation Hummingbird or, in Germany, the Röhm-Putsch, was a purge that took place in Nazi Germany between June 30 and July 2 1934, when the Nazi regime carried out a series of political murders. Leading figures of the left-wing Strasserist faction of the Nazi Party. wiki

Yeah, so? Hitler eliminated a political rival. That was his only motive. Stalin murdered thousands of confirmed Marxists. Does that make him a right-winger?

The libturd logic for claiming Hitler was a right-winger isn't just wrong; it's positively idiotic.

 

[bripat9643]

QW -

In the interests of good faith I will pick up a couple of your points.

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism." (Hitler)

Still not seeing it.

Well, I think to most people the meaning of Hitler's statement is clear - he had been intent of destroying Marxism for many years.

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere." (Hitler)

Does that mean he was anti-democracy or pro- communism?

It means that he was anti-Democracy. Hitler did away with elections, insisting that only the Nazi Party was fit to rule the country, at least until such time as Marxism had been destroyed.

This is very clear in Hitler's writing:

The young [Nazi] movement is in its nature and inner organization anti-parliamentarian; that is, it rejects… a principle of majority rule in which the leader is degraded to the level of mere executant of other people's wills and opinion." (Hitler)

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man." (Hitler)

Stalin also did away with democracy, so that doesn't necessarily make one a leftist.

Again, Hitler was anti-Marxist, not anti-socialist.