How we know Hitler was right wing.

[SSDD]

I don't understand how so many people can think fascism is extreme left. You open a dictionary and it defines fascism as politically right. Open a history book, take a class. Does no one here remember history 101 in high school?

All socialism is to the left of conservativism or classical liberalism. The right wing and left wing refer to nothing more than degree along the socialist scale.

 

[editec]

Half truth is still not truth.

Partisans ALWAYS have a lot of trouble understanding that principle.

 

[AmyNation]

Oh, ferchrissakes...The socialists identified themselves socialists, but that doesn't count because you say so?

Really?

No, it's because facts say so. Facts and history text books and the vast majority of historians on our planet say hitler was a fascist and that fascism is the extreme right.

 

[SSDD]

I don't understand how so many people can think fascism is extreme left. You open a dictionary and it defines fascism as politically right. Open a history book, take a class. Does no one here remember history 101 in high school?

The left, meaning socialists, have been trying since the 40's to distance themselves from the reality that nazis were socialist. It is patently rediculous to know that the party identified themselves as nationalist socialists and then claim that they were not socialists.

Socialism, not matter what flavor it is is to the left of conservativism. On a scale of socialists ideologies, there exists a right and a left, but the scale, the whole socialist scale is to the left of conservativism. When you say that this ideology is right or that ideology is left, you have to be clear what sort of scale you are looking at. Nazis wer far right on the socialist scale, but were still left of conservativism. Their policies and stated political goals make this abundantly clear.

 

[SSDD]

Oh, ferchrissakes...The socialists identified themselves socialists, but that doesn't count because you say so?

Really?

No, it's because facts say so. Facts and history text books and the vast majority of historians on our planet say hitler was a fascist and that fascism is the extreme right.

Fascism is extreme right on the scale of socialism...but all socialism is to the left of conservativism. And don't forget that history isn't always as it is written. Socialists have been trying to distance themselves from nazis for more than a half a century and much historical revisionism has gone into that attempt.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I don't understand how so many people can think fascism is extreme left.

You can't understand how people could recognize that a collectivist system based on central planning of the economy with total government as left wing?

Do you understand how people could recognize that rain is "wet?"

You open a dictionary and it defines fascism as politically right. Open a history book, take a class. Does no one here remember history 101 in high school?

Politics drove the definitions you rely on. Franklin Roosevelt was very popular, and was a Fabian. The United States was aligned with the Soviet Union during WWII. It was important that propaganda show a clear distinction between the enemy Nazis, and our dear friends the Communists. Couple this propaganda with the 30 year lock on all information by the Edward Murrow / Arthur O. Sulzberger, Jr. Cabal that sanitized all news to meet party goals, and it isn't hard to understand how this "big lie" was propagated.

Simple ideas Amy;

• Collectivism is not "right wing."
• Central planned economy is not "right wing."
• Big/total government is not "right wing."

 

[Saigon]

I don't understand how so many people can think fascism is extreme left. You open a dictionary and it defines fascism as politically right. Open a history book, take a class. Does no one here remember history 101 in high school?

The left, meaning socialists, have been trying since the 40's to distance themselves from the reality that nazis were socialist. It is patently rediculous to know that the party identified themselves as nationalist socialists and then claim that they were not socialists.

That is utter nonsense, of course - historians working during WWII also record Fascism as being right wing - check Hildebrand, for one. I can list another half dozen if you are genuinely interested.

As I mentioned earlier - PLEASE check what political terms mean before you using them. Just posting them at random - and right now that is EXACTLY what you are doing - makes discussion impossible.

 

[Oddball]

Oh, ferchrissakes...The socialists identified themselves socialists, but that doesn't count because you say so?

Really?

No, it's because facts say so. Facts and history text books and the vast majority of historians on our planet say hitler was a fascist and that fascism is the extreme right.

The facts say that the authoritarian state Nazi state in Germany and that in Soviet Russia differed only in geographic location....They were both highly centralized, brutal, command-and control military dictatorships.

Well, that and the communists in Russia exterminated their own people on a scale of 3:1 over the Nazis.

Parsing all the irrelevant trifling differences in form is just a bunch of nose-picking nonsense.

 

[Uncensored2008]

So, who cares what the definition of facism is because Hitler used the term socialist?

So if Obama declared himself a republican tomorrow would that make it so?

Fascism is a form of socialism. Benito Mussolini was head of the Italian Bolshevik party, got tired of taking orders from Lenin, and formed his own brand of socialism.

 

[Saigon]

Conservativism, or classical liberalism which was the original dispute that led to this thread is not to be found in either the right wing or the left wing because it is in a different house altogether.

You have to laugh, don't you?

How could anyone, reagrdless of whether or not they have ever studied politics, be so completely and utterly lost?

Conservatism is - OBVIOUSLY - a centre right pihlosophy.

 

[SSDD]

Simple ideas Amy;

• Collectivism is not "right wing."
• Central planned economy is not "right wing."
• Big/total government is not "right wing."

One only need read the founding documents of the US to get a clear vision of what lies to the right of socialism. Liberals like to use the terms right wing and left wing in an attempt to infer that socialists who have policies to the right of their own are somehow conservative without entering the losing argument of actually calling them conservative and then trying to defend the claim. By inference, they can make the claim without ever having to defend it. Right wing and left wing are the two sides of the socialist house....true conservativism, or classical liberalism is to the right of the socialist house.

 

[Oddball]

Conservativism, or classical liberalism which was the original dispute that led to this thread is not to be found in either the right wing or the left wing because it is in a different house altogether.

You have to laugh, don't you?

How could anyone, reagrdless of whether or not they have ever studied politics, be so completely and utterly lost?

Conservatism is - OBVIOUSLY - a centre right pihlosophy.

See: Hegelian dialectic.

 

[Saigon]

Oh, ferchrissakes...The socialists identified themselves socialists, but that doesn't count because you say so?

Really?

It is strange, I know, but doing a little reading on this and that is EXACTLY what you will find.

Choose a historical source you trust, and take a look.

Just as words like 'liberal' have shifted in meaning over time, so the meaning of the word 'socialist' in Germany in 1924 is not what it is today.

 

[SSDD]

That is utter nonsense, of course - historians working during WWII also record Fascism as being right wing - check Hildebrand, for one. I can list another half dozen if you are genuinely interested.

Do you deny that the National Socialist German Workers' party were socialist?

 

[Saigon]

If Anarchy as any rule at all, it is that there are no rules. No rule of law. That concept is not right wing. There is no unchallenged established principle or sense of justice in Anarchy, only what you can attain or hold on to through force or will. That kind of chaos is neither Left or Right, but the absence of Authority, the absence of the recognition of right or wrong, only selfish interest. When the cycle is in destruction mode, it blossoms, it's no long term solution. It is lawlessness.

I agree by and large - Anarchy is the only philosophy that can not be defined as being inherently left or right.

But this should not be taken to mean that left-wing anarchy and right-wing anarchy do not exist, because both do. It is more that both occur in such contradictory forms that neither amount to having a coherent philosophy.

Many of the anti-bank riots we've had in Europe are left-wing anarchists who might bitterly oppose communist rule.

 

[Oddball]

Oh, ferchrissakes...The socialists identified themselves socialists, but that doesn't count because you say so?

Really?

It is strange, I know, but doing a little reading on this and that is EXACTLY what you will find.

Choose a historical source you trust, and take a look.

Just as words like 'liberal' have shifted in meaning over time, so the meaning of the word 'socialist' in Germany in 1924 is not what it is today.

Somewhere in the cosmic ether, both Rand and Orwell are having a big fat belly laugh.

BTW, speaking of history, the American progressive/socialists hijacked the term "liberal" (which heretofore meant libertarian) back in the 1930s, to obscure their agenda.

 

[Saigon]

That is utter nonsense, of course - historians working during WWII also record Fascism as being right wing - check Hildebrand, for one. I can list another half dozen if you are genuinely interested.

Do you deny that the National Socialist German Workers' party were socialist?

I am really trying to be patient with you on this, SSDD, really I am.

The Nazis used the word 'socialist' in an entirely different way from what you and I use and understand the term. Socialism is inherently left wing - Nazism is inherently right wing. Thus, 'Nazism' used the term 'socialist', but not the philosophy you are thinking of. If we go back to the origins of the term 'Nazi' and its usage in Italy, then there were genuinely socialist influences mixed in with extreme right wing concepts, but few of these ever found their way into Nazism. Nazism jumped some distance to the right as it moved from Italy to Germany.

I would be delighted to recommend three or four books which would explain why and how and when and give you as much info as might like.

 

[editec]

Right wing? left wing?

Meaningless blather

FASCISM
A political doctrine opposed to democracy and demanding submission to political leadership and authority. A key principle of fascism is the belief that the whole society has a shared destiny and purpose which can only be achieved by iron discipline, obedience to leadership and an all-powerful state. Fascism first developed in Italy, under the leadership of Benito Mussolini (dictator of Italy from 1922 to 1943) and later influenced the development of German fascism in the Nazi movement led by Adolf Hitler (dictator of Germany from 1933-1945) . While fascism increases the power and role of the state in society and suppresses free trade unions and political opposition, it preserves private ownership and private property.

 

[Oddball]

"The meanings of the words have shifted...."

You can call a pile of shit a peppermint stick all you want...That doesn't mean anyone would be more inclined to eat it.

 

[Saigon]

Anarchism, the complete lack of government, is sandwiched between total government on both sides, but limited government is the polar opposite?

Indeed it is - because Anarchy is the opposite of moderation.

Anarchy is the ultimate form of extremism - which is why it is usually placed between the two feet of the horseshoe - but attached to neither.

Right-wing anarchy is very difficult to find valid examples of, but DR Congo during the Great African War is one, and parts of Central America during the years in which death squads ruled large areas of land could be considered.