CDZ How We Can Reduce School Rampage Killings

[usmbguest5318]

How We Can Reduce School Rampage Killings

As opposed to school non-rampage shootings? And what exactly is the difference?

How We Can Reduce School [Mass] Killings

I've presented some suggestions here: CDZ - Gaps in controlling/curtailing illegal access to firearms.

 

[Anathema]

Most of them do show themselves, and just because a few don't isn't a reason not to clamp down on those who do.

Definitely stop the ones who show themselves, just don't expect it to be s perfect solution. Especially since you're gonna have to separate the dangerois oddballs from the ones who are jyst strange.

 

[Anathema]

Where are the trillions to build new schools going to come from? One entry point for 4000 students? Try again!

Many schools can be retrofitted to meet the requirements. The truly older (1950s era) schools are often closer to this standard thsn you think.

Maybe one entry is too few, but allowing access from every egress is totally stupid. As is having 4000 kids in the same school.

I also notice you failed to comment on the really useful tool - armed security.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You want to stop these shootings....

1. SECURE the school buildings. One entry point. Multiple exits, but one and only one entry. No glass entryways. Limited windows.

2. SECURITY PERSONNEL. That means armed, trained and empowered personnel. Multiple people. Both armed faculty and dedicated Security Guards.

Where are the trillions to build new schools going to come from? One entry point for 4000 students? Try again!

I think existing school buildings can be altered to make them secure from gun fire passing through wals, or windows, and implementing a monitoring program basically only requires volunteers that will keep watch. Yeah, there needs to be multiple entries, or else the kids will find a way to sneak in, but not every possible exit should also be a valid entrance.

Gun fire does not pass through walls on schools or even normal construction materials, especially a .223 from an AR-15.

Any idea how much bullet proof glass costs? I'll bet you do not. We priced it for our entrance doors at one school. We could have almost built a new building cheaper.

Any exit that is not manned can easily become an entrance. Sometimes students have to pass between buildings, and that means they have to access through a monitored point. Any exterior door that can be opened from the inside is actually an entrance.

In two of my high schools, vocational/technical centers were located next door, so the students were always coming and going. It was a nightmare!

 

[Anathema]

Gun fire does not pass through walls on schools or even normal construction materials, especially a .223 from an AR-15.

Any idea how much bullet proof glass costs? I'll bet you do not. We priced it for our entrance doors at one school. We could have almost built a new building cheaper.

Any exit that is not manned can easily become an entrance. Sometimes students have to pass between buildings, and that means they have to access through a monitored point. Any exterior door that can be opened from the inside is actually an entrance.

In two of my high schools, vocational/technical centers were located next door, so the students were always coming and going. It was a nightmare!

Gunfire does pass through windows and glass doors. Solid core doors and concrete to replace glass panes in entry areas do stop bullets at far less cost.

Then you have teachers posted at those doors during free periods and passing times.

I'm completely against schools,with multiple buildings. The campus should be completely enclosed. Once the student enters, there's no need to leave until the end of the day.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Admiral, thank you for taking the time to give a line by line response.

I hope I dont seem hostile here.

Here is my take on your suggestions as an educator and former school administrator.
1. Already done.

1. Make all classrooms 'safe rooms' that can be locked against a determined attacker with a gun.

The walls of a 'safe room' are also bullet proof as are all other surfaces. I seriously doubt that this has been done.

Do you have any idea how expensive that is when cinderblock walls and solid wooden doors are sufficient? Why waste money?

2. Teachers and staff ? Yes, Others? No.

2. Allow trained civilians to carry concealed at schools once they have due licenses from the state and local school boards.

I think this depends more on the locale. In Montana or in a military run school I think it is more plausible to use non school staff, but I think it depends on the locale. Not every school is like the ones you have taught at.

I am mostly tossing ideas out here for use where they might fit.

3. Already done.

3. Hire security guards to monitor heavily traveled hallways and entrances.

Maybe where you have been, but I still see a lot of schools that dont have any sort of armed guards.

4. Already done.

4. Install a camera system that can see all approaches and halls in the school and make sure it is monitored and an ability to put the school on immediate lockdown over-riding all other alarms.

Apparently not everywhere, or at the school with the last shooting in Floriduh.

Really? How do you think they identified the shooter?

5. Ridiculous. Administrative nightmare. Been there, done that.

5. Issue student ID cards and make them mandatory for admission to schools. Suspended students would have to turn their IDs in.

Lol, issuing IDs is a pretty simple thing that even the DoJ can do. You dont seem to have much confidence in our public schools.

I was in charge of our student ID program we implemented in 2005. The kids would not bring them to school. What do you do? Deny them access? Every kid would would accidently leave them at home on purpose. "I can't go to school if I can't get in!" Then, do you leave them outside unsupervised all day? You are talking to someone who has lived with and dealt with these issues for over 20 years. I don't have confidence in building an idiot-proof system. That's all!

6. Useless and a waste of money. Time consuming.

6. Install metal detectors at all school entrances.

This is simply an additional factor to prevent a rampage event, it is not offered as the universal fool proof solution.

And you seriously think that scanning bags in bulk along with visual inspection is a waste of time? Then why does EVERY security program use it? Show me county level courtrooms and above in this country that dont put you through a metal scanner. If it is good enough for a judge it is good enough for our childrens lives.

Show me a courtroom where thousands of people arrive in a period of about 30 minutes. How long are the lines at the TSA checkpoints? I made a post about my recent experience with a metal detector. They are useless because they detect everything metal, down to the fly on your pants!

7. Requires someone to coordinate volunteers and they all have to have background checks. Administrative nightmare.

7. Allow for parent volunteers to monitor hallways.

I was refering to the parents of students attending. What additional BGC is required?

You REALLY do not have any confidence in school administration anywhere.

In order for a parent to even chaperone a field trip, they must undergo a state background check. I am sure you have no problem with your child being supervised by a child molestor or domestic violence offender.

8. Vouchers defund schools. You obviously don't know what competition means.

8.Allow school competition with a voucher plan.

Of course our public schools could compete with private schools and they would be funded on the basiss of how many students they can attract just like it is now in every state I am aware of.

For the better public schools a voucher program would bring MORE funding, obviously.

You REALLY Truly have zero confidence in our public schools system, nor for its ability to adapt.

Vouchers have always been and always will be a red herring. People want the government to pay for their child's private education. I will not dignify discussing that in this situation

That you appear to have some background in these systems troubles me.

What school systems or general types have you worked in? I.e. large urban schools, affluent suburban schools, military base schools, local rural schools?

My experience is 10 years as a teacher and administrator in a school about the same size as the school in Florida, We had over 3200 students, located in Jacksonville, FL, and were the largest high school north of Orlando. After that, I taught one year in a Department of Defense high school, one year in a middle school just outside that same Army post, three years in an inner city middle school, five and a half years in rural high schools in three different counties, and I now substitute in a suburban school district.

My answers are listed above.

The reason I know this topic so well is that I have a long history of dealing with these issues. Most of these comments are simply Monday-morning quarterbacking without the sufficient knowledge of how to play football in any way.

Most of the processes and procedures have been implemented over the past 19 years since Columbine, and are not being discussed because you don't tell the enemy what your capabilities and procedures are.

I can sit here all day and critique the school without knowing the details of their emergency procedures, but I would be no better than many of you, except I have had extensive training in this area, and work in a school, whereas most of you are taking potshots in the dark.

Not to be rude to anyone, but many of you are simply so ignorant because you don't realize how ignorant you truly are.

Thank you for the rational discussion!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You want to stop these shootings....

1. SECURE the school buildings. One entry point. Multiple exits, but one and only one entry. No glass entryways. Limited windows.

2. SECURITY PERSONNEL. That means armed, trained and empowered personnel. Multiple people. Both armed faculty and dedicated Security Guards.

Where are the trillions to build new schools going to come from? One entry point for 4000 students? Try again!

I think existing school buildings can be altered to make them secure from gun fire passing through wals, or windows, and implementing a monitoring program basically only requires volunteers that will keep watch. Yeah, there needs to be multiple entries, or else the kids will find a way to sneak in, but not every possible exit should also be a valid entrance.

My local high school had a Principal, Vice Principal, and a secretary that worked for both of them; we now have more 'administrators' and 'experts' than we do teachers, and the quality has become total crap. It isn't about buildings or anything else, it's about mentalities, cultural suicide, and pandering to idiots.

Your local high school may have had that in the 1960s perhaps.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Where are the trillions to build new schools going to come from? One entry point for 4000 students? Try again!

Many schools can be retrofitted to meet the requirements. The truly older (1950s era) schools are often closer to this standard thsn you think.

Maybe one entry is too few, but allowing access from every egress is totally stupid. As is having 4000 kids in the same school.

I also notice you failed to comment on the really useful tool - armed security.

Maybe it is because my schools have had armed security since the 1990s?

Look up the term "economy of scale". Larger schools are more cost effective and better uses of taxpayer funds.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Gun fire does not pass through walls on schools or even normal construction materials, especially a .223 from an AR-15.

Any idea how much bullet proof glass costs? I'll bet you do not. We priced it for our entrance doors at one school. We could have almost built a new building cheaper.

Any exit that is not manned can easily become an entrance. Sometimes students have to pass between buildings, and that means they have to access through a monitored point. Any exterior door that can be opened from the inside is actually an entrance.

In two of my high schools, vocational/technical centers were located next door, so the students were always coming and going. It was a nightmare!

Gunfire does pass through windows and glass doors. Solid core doors and concrete to replace glass panes in entry areas do stop bullets at far less cost.

If the structure will support the extra weight.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Gun fire does not pass through walls on schools or even normal construction materials, especially a .223 from an AR-15.

Any idea how much bullet proof glass costs? I'll bet you do not. We priced it for our entrance doors at one school. We could have almost built a new building cheaper.

Any exit that is not manned can easily become an entrance. Sometimes students have to pass between buildings, and that means they have to access through a monitored point. Any exterior door that can be opened from the inside is actually an entrance.

In two of my high schools, vocational/technical centers were located next door, so the students were always coming and going. It was a nightmare!

Gunfire does pass through windows and glass doors. Solid core doors and concrete to replace glass panes in entry areas do stop bullets at far less cost.

Then you have teachers posted at those doors during free periods and passing times.

I'm completely against schools,with multiple buildings. The campus should be completely enclosed. Once the student enters, there's no need to leave until the end of the day.

Most schools do not have extensive windows. They already have solid core doors and concrete. Sandy Hook changed all of that in many schools. We redid our entrance afterwards.

Just exactly how many teachers do you think a school has to do all of this? Every once in a while I have to do things like use the bathroom, get a drink of water, etc.

Good for you, being against multiple buildings, but that does not change reality. You cannot put a vocational/technical center in the same building with a high school or you have safety issues. They also serve multiple counties in my state, so you have kids from other schools arriving and departing. Maybe a good dose of reality might bring you back to Earth.

 

[Taz]

We need to arm the students ASAP.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Gun fire does not pass through walls on schools or even normal construction materials, especially a .223 from an AR-15.

Dude, I was an infantryman for five years,m 11B. I know what the hell a 5.56 cvan do and it can definately go through a ******* wall, Sherlock. It can go through cinderblock and it can pass through any automobile easily, even the engine block, though with engine blocks it loses a lot of power and has a random trajectory after that.

The AR-15 for Home Defense: Penetration Tests

Any idea how much bullet proof glass costs? I'll bet you do not. We priced it for our entrance doors at one school. We could have almost built a new building cheaper.

Lol, yeah, that is why no one uses hurricane proof windows anywhere cuz it is way too expensive. lol

We are talking about our kids here. If it is good enough for a judge it is good enough for our children, dude.

Any exit that is not manned can easily become an entrance. Sometimes students have to pass between buildings, and that means they have to access through a monitored point. Any exterior door that can be opened from the inside is actually an entrance.

One way doors are standard in most government buildings now and while 'piggybacking' is always a problem it is another useful step to have such doorways, lol.

In two of my high schools, vocational/technical centers were located next door, so the students were always coming and going. It was a nightmare!

oh, you poor dear!

 

[JimBowie1958]

Most schools do not have extensive windows. They already have solid core doors and concrete. Sandy Hook changed all of that in many schools. We redid our entrance afterwards..

Wow, glad to know that school shootings have finally been stopped....oh, wait....

 

[impuretrash]

Might help to stop letting the government get away with it.

 

[Mr Natural]

We need to arm the students ASAP.

Winner, winner chicken dinner!

Issue the kids an age appropriate firearm on the first day of school.

As an added benefit, it will probably cut down on a lot of the bullying that seems to go on.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Do you have any idea how expensive that is when cinderblock walls and solid wooden doors are sufficient? Why waste money?

A 5.56 ball ammo round will penetrate wood and cinderblock easily. That is why it is known as AP; 'Armor penetrating', lol.

Really? How do you think they identified the shooter?

After the fact. They need to intercept these bad apples at the door. Maybe they could have had the door been secured from entry.

I was in charge of our student ID program we implemented in 2005. The kids would not bring them to school. What do you do? Deny them access? Every kid would would accidently leave them at home on purpose. "I can't go to school if I can't get in!" Then, do you leave them outside unsupervised all day? You are talking to someone who has lived with and dealt with these issues for over 20 years. I don't have confidence in building an idiot-proof system. That's all!

Not if you give them a chore/detail to do while they STAY AT SCHOOL. roflmao, you are just so helpless!

Show me a courtroom where thousands of people arrive in a period of about 30 minutes. How long are the lines at the TSA checkpoints? I made a post about my recent experience with a metal detector. They are useless because they detect everything metal, down to the fly on your pants!

The ones I go through every day dont go off on my fly, lol Why cant you get scholl admins to do anything write, Admiral?

And can someone explain to the good Admiral that lots and lots of people enter Federal and state level courthouses, far more than his 3200 school? roflmao

In order for a parent to even chaperone a field trip, they must undergo a state background check. I am sure you have no problem with your child being supervised by a child molestor or domestic violence offender.

Yeah, checking the sex offender list must be excruciating for school admin types. How could I be so insensitive? roflmao

Vouchers have always been and always will be a red herring. People want the government to pay for their child's private education. I will not dignify discussing that in this situation

lol, well whatever, Admiral, there seems to be millions of Americans who dont mind paying for their own kids education, duh, even though you are such an expert, you dont seem to be able to grasp that little fact.

Introducing competition in our educational system would improve it vastly and give parents a choice.

I bet you like choice, dont you?

My experience is 10 years as a teacher and administrator in a school about the same size as the school in Florida, We had over 3200 students, located in Jacksonville, FL, and were the largest high school north of Orlando. After that, I taught one year in a Department of Defense high school, one year in a middle school just outside that same Army post, three years in an inner city middle school, five and a half years in rural high schools in three different counties, and I now substitute in a suburban school district.

Yeah, that is great and all but your knowledge about security blows big chunks, Admiral.

The reason I know this topic so well is that I have a long history of dealing with these issues. Most of these comments are simply Monday-morning quarterbacking without the sufficient knowledge of how to play football in any way.

XXXX - Mod Edit -- Deleted. Too confrontational for CDZ.. And cut out using Moderator Red for responses.. LOL.. JimBowie1958 Admiral Rockwell Tory

Most of the processes and procedures have been implemented over the past 19 years since Columbine, and are not being discussed because you don't tell the enemy what your capabilities and procedures are.

So why are our students still getting shot by idiots with guns? Because these schools are as safe as a courthouse? Right? lol

I can sit here all day and critique the school without knowing the details of their emergency procedures, but I would be no better than many of you, except I have had extensive training in this area, and work in a school, whereas most of you are taking potshots in the dark.

Yeah, you are an expert on security and dont know the penetration power of a 5.56 NATO round or how to effectively implement a surveilance system. I am not impressed by anything more than your hubris.

XXXX- Mod Edit -- DITTO.. It's CDZone.

 

[Picaro]

You want to stop these shootings....

1. SECURE the school buildings. One entry point. Multiple exits, but one and only one entry. No glass entryways. Limited windows.

2. SECURITY PERSONNEL. That means armed, trained and empowered personnel. Multiple people. Both armed faculty and dedicated Security Guards.

Where are the trillions to build new schools going to come from? One entry point for 4000 students? Try again!

I think existing school buildings can be altered to make them secure from gun fire passing through wals, or windows, and implementing a monitoring program basically only requires volunteers that will keep watch. Yeah, there needs to be multiple entries, or else the kids will find a way to sneak in, but not every possible exit should also be a valid entrance.

My local high school had a Principal, Vice Principal, and a secretary that worked for both of them; we now have more 'administrators' and 'experts' than we do teachers, and the quality has become total crap. It isn't about buildings or anything else, it's about mentalities, cultural suicide, and pandering to idiots.

Your local high school may have had that in the 1960s perhaps.

Yes, back when competence levels were much higher, true. these days it's impossible to tell the strange kids and the loons from the school staff.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You want to stop these shootings....

1. SECURE the school buildings. One entry point. Multiple exits, but one and only one entry. No glass entryways. Limited windows.

2. SECURITY PERSONNEL. That means armed, trained and empowered personnel. Multiple people. Both armed faculty and dedicated Security Guards.

Where are the trillions to build new schools going to come from? One entry point for 4000 students? Try again!

I think existing school buildings can be altered to make them secure from gun fire passing through wals, or windows, and implementing a monitoring program basically only requires volunteers that will keep watch. Yeah, there needs to be multiple entries, or else the kids will find a way to sneak in, but not every possible exit should also be a valid entrance.

My local high school had a Principal, Vice Principal, and a secretary that worked for both of them; we now have more 'administrators' and 'experts' than we do teachers, and the quality has become total crap. It isn't about buildings or anything else, it's about mentalities, cultural suicide, and pandering to idiots.

Your local high school may have had that in the 1960s perhaps.

Yes, back when competence levels were much higher, true. these days it's impossible to tell the strange kids and the loons from the school staff.

Yeah it is hard to tell me from my students. I am 57 years old, weigh 230 pounds and have graying hair. I look just like the football players in my class.

 

[Anathema]

.Good for you, being against multiple buildings, but that does not change reality. You cannot put a vocational/technical center in the same building with a high school or you have safety issues. They also serve multiple counties in my state, so you have kids from other schools arriving and departing. Maybe a good dose of reality might bring you back to Earth.

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

.Good for you, being against multiple buildings, but that does not change reality. You cannot put a vocational/technical center in the same building with a high school or you have safety issues. They also serve multiple counties in my state, so you have kids from other schools arriving and departing. Maybe a good dose of reality might bring you back to Earth.

The reality is that both of my parents were teachers and I spent 13 years in a public school system. The prototype school in my mind is the junior high school I attended. It was damn near a concrete bomb shelter built in the 1950s. There were probably 6 exit doors in the entire 4 story building and almost no windows.

I really wish you would learn to think in the here and now. The 1950s was nearly 70 years ago.

I taught in a school built in 1927 and it had been remodeled about every 20 years or so. It was still a deathtrap.

I taught in a school in Florida that had no windows in the classrooms. When the AC failed, the school had to close because the classroom temps went to about 130 degrees.

I have you beat with 33 years in public schools. When were you a school administrator?