How to Define GENOCIDE?

GLASNOST said:
So, admit it, you don't know what is happening in Gaza today.
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peacefan said:
oh i do. the Israelis want to eradicate the last remaining fighters of Hamas, and people like you want to shame them into not doing that.
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I suggest to you that you read these words of yours and edit them before it's too late.
 
GLASNOST said:
You didn't really expect a sensible reply from her, did you?

I call that proof.

They have been getting away with it ..... the UN has been dozing off.
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Here is the link you were looking for.

All the Times Israel Has Rejected Peace With Palestinians ​

944873


". . . The Arab side formally rejected the plans. The Zionist movement rejected the specifics of the Peel proposal and accepted the U.N. plan — but only in public. The founders of Israel privately agreed that once the country came into being, they would consolidate their power and then take over as much additional land as possible. David Ben-Gurion, who would become Israel’s first prime minister, put it this way in a famous 1937 letter to his son: “A Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning. … The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.”

In any case, the U.N. adoption of the partition plan in November 1947 led to a moderate civil war between the Jewish and Arab populations. Then during the Arab–Israeli War of 1948 following Israel’s declaration of independence, the new country conquered 78 percent of Palestine, leaving 22 percent in Arab hands. Egypt controlled Gaza, and Jordan controlled the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Palestinians experienced the Nakba, meaning “catastrophe,” in which 700,000 people were expelled or fled, and 500 Palestinian villages were destroyed.

<snip>

This was in fact true: The records of the Taba talks show the Israelis and Palestinians had come agonizingly close to specific solutions to what the territory of a Palestinian state would be and whether and how any Palestinian refugees could return to Israel, with less progress on who would control which parts of Jerusalem.

But Barak was defeated by Ariel Sharon, who did not want a Palestinian state and did not restart the talks. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs declared that the Clinton parameters “are not binding on the new government to be formed in Israel.”

Clinton then made a fateful, disastrous decision. In the 22 years since, he has lied over and over again about what happened, claiming that Arafat was the one who rejected a settlement. This has convinced both Israelis and Americans that Clinton made every effort to give Palestinians a state. But it was impossible, because — in what became a standard formulation — there was “no partner for peace” on the Palestinian side. Hillary Clinton, who was elected to the Senate in 2000 and later became secretary of state, also joined in this key deception.

The Arab Peace Plan​

In 2002, Saudi Arabia proposed a solution to the conflict known as the [URL='https://archive.ph/o/74xEd/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/mar/28/israel7']Arab Peace Initiative. The API called for a settlement along the standard lines that had been known for decades: an Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories with some small adjustments, a fair division of Jerusalem, and “a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem.” The 22 members of the Arab League endorsed it, as did the 57-state Organization of Islamic Cooperation. Israel, with Sharon leading the country, simply ignored it.. . . . "

etc.
 
..
MisterBeale said:
That isn't what I asked.

All of that would be very nice.

. . . what I asked, was for you to link us to proof, that these are the proposals of the Israeli leadership. But we know none of these are.


If you had listened to the video I posted, one of the world's leading foreign policy experts even told us, that many of the Israeli IDF leaders are currently demoralized, precisely because there is no end game. They haven't been given any.

Perhaps you should write a letter and forward these suggestions to Bibi? Somehow, I don't think he cares -- when the end game is to ethnically cleanse as many Arab women, children and old folks from Gaza as possible. . .

:sigh2:
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I think these are reasonable questions.

I think it is apparent that Israel does NOT have an endgame and does not have clear concise achievable objectives.

They have outlined no real achievable long term strategy beyond the destruction of both Hamas and of Gaza (which appears to be an unstated goal) except for the release of the hostages which does not seem as important as Rafah, despite the devastating consequences such an assault would have on not only Gaza civilians, but Israels alliances and international standing. We are already seeing fractures.

The areas they cleared of Hamas are now getting reinfested because there there doesn't seem to be a strategy for maintaining those gains. Instead they focus on Rafah...which also continues to lack any real plan for protecting civilians.

Israeli's are frustrated and angry at the seemiing unwillingness of the ruling coalition to hostages first and the prospect of what appears to be becoming a forever war with no endgame. Allies
are slso frustrated.

I really think this comes down to the political survival of ONE man, who created a coalition with Israel's most extreme parties and who he has sold his soul to JUST to stay in power. A forever war would help him achieve that goal.
 
Coyote said:
..

I think these are reasonable questions.

I think it is apparent that Israel does NOT have an endgame and does not have clear concise achievable objectives.

They have outlined no real achievable long term strategy beyond the destruction of both Hamas and of Gaza (which appears to be an unstated goal) except for the release of the hostages which does not seem as important as Rafah, despite the devastating consequences such an assault would have on not only Gaza civilians, but Israels alliances and international standing. We are already seeing fractures.

The areas they cleared of Hamas are now getting reinfested because there there doesn't seem to be a strategy for maintaining those gains. Instead they focus on Rafah...which also continues to lack any real plan for protecting civilians.

Israeli's are frustrated and angry at the seemiing unwillingness of the ruling coalition to hostages first and the prospect of what appears to be becoming a forever war with no endgame. Allies
are slso frustrated.

I really think this comes down to the political survival of ONE man, who created a coalition with Israel's most extreme parties and who he has sold his soul to JUST to stay in power. A forever war would help him achieve that goal.
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The very real, and very frightening prospect I see developing. . is forever wars developing both there, AND in Ukraine.

. . . my paranoid side, which I am ashamed to say, is somewhat over active at times, feels the enemies are complicit in the plan, and have as much to gain.

Do you think the folks that are in control and in power of Hamas want it to end? Do they want to share power with the Palestinian Authority?

Likewise, Russia is now finding out what the U.S. learned after WWII. A wartime free market economy run by oligarchs is great for growth and control. They seem to be now duplicating our own military-industrial-complex.

I haven't looked into it, but I believe they have had some of the strongest GDP growth on the planet last year. Why would their leaders want any of this to end?

So it seems, none of the leaders want war to end, (same as it always was,) but what about the people?

Oceania, will go right on against Eurasia, while it seems, East Asia will patiently wait for its turn? :sigh2:

8ql21a.jpg
 
Coyote said:
Allies
are slso frustrated.
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I was watching Dore's live show tonight, and they dredged this up. . .

I was thinking about what you wrote and thought you would enjoy watching it. :lol:



1716181505976.webp
 
Coyote said:
The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”
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I agree that intent matters. Would you say that public statements made by Netanyahu and other government officials about the Palestinians (not just Hamas) are one way of deciphering intent?

There are many scriptures that teach that a person's words reveal what is on the inside. Here's one: "For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of." Luke 6:45

Here are some of the public statements made. Btw, you might already know this... but the Amalek passage that Netanyahu brought up was about wiping out an entire people group and sparing no one - men, women, children, babies, even the animals.


 
peacefan said:
when confined to 1 village among 2 million+ Palestinians?
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Do you not keep up with the daily events? Are you in a coma? I see no reason to continue communicating with you.
 
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As to four points in Mr B's vid, Israel has never sought to be a democratic anything, nor have they pursued a viable two state solution

Although they often like to present themselves as doing both

Option 3 & 4 are then presented as hailing from biblical times , which Israel takes every opportunity to claim their 'God' has sanctioned them to pursue

~S~
 
buttercup said:
I agree that intent matters. Would you say that public statements made by Netanyahu and other government officials about the Palestinians (not just Hamas) are one way of deciphering intent?
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In my opinion, those statements, along with a lack of willingness to counter them or even marginalize them has bothered me from the start. These are the words of high ranking cabinet members after all. I don’t think, however, that they are a sufficient basis to support an intent to genocide because the actions don’t match.

Also, genocide is not the only war crime.
buttercup said:
There are many scriptures that teach that a person's words reveal what is on the inside. Here's one: "For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of." Luke 6:45

Here are some of the public statements made. Btw, you might already know this... but the Amalek passage that Netanyahu brought up was about wiping out an entire people group and sparing no one - men, women, children, babies, even the animals.


View attachment 949323
Click to expand...
 
sparky said:
As to four points in Mr B's vid, Israel has never sought to be a democratic anything, nor have they pursued a viable two state solution

Although they often like to present themselves as doing both

Option 3 & 4 are then presented as hailing from biblical times , which Israel takes every opportunity to claim their 'God' has sanctioned them to pursue

~S~
Click to expand...
I think Israel’s formation and existence has always been a tug of war struggle between those who want it to be a religious “democratic” state and those who sought to model it on a more European model, and that friction remains. The problem is….the more religious a state becomes, the less democratic and the worse it is for minorities. Look at Islamic states. Look at what the Hindu nationalist movement is doing to India.
 
Coyote said:
I think Israel’s formation and existence has always been a tug of war struggle between those who want it to be a religious “democratic” state and those who sought to model it on a more European model, and that friction remains. The problem is….the more religious a state becomes, the less democratic and the worse it is for minorities. Look at Islamic states. Look at what the Hindu nationalist movement is doing to India.
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One can be a theocracy or democracy , just not both Coyote

~S~
 
sparky said:
Option 3 & 4 are then presented as hailing from biblical times , which Israel takes every opportunity to claim their 'God' has sanctioned them to pursue

~S~
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It's no wonder there are so many gods.
:26:
 
Coyote said:
In my opinion, those statements, along with a lack of willingness to counter them or even marginalize them has bothered me from the start. These are the words of high ranking cabinet members after all. I don’t think, however, that they are a sufficient basis to support an intent to genocide because the actions don’t match.
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I'm not sure how anyone could look at the massive destruction and leveling of almost an entire city and say that their actions don't match those statements. It seems to me they're trying to do exactly what they said they were going to do from the start. :dunno:

Whether they finish what they said they were going to do remains to be seen. Maybe they won't. But if we're talking about intent alone, I haven't seen any reason to disbelieve the intent in those initial statements. The only reason I can think of that you would say their actions don't match is that maybe you're believing all of their subsequent words, since the whole thing started, for example, about "human shields" etc. Is that why?
 
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