How much teachers get in each country

[browsing deer]

This graph purports to show three things... How many hours worked, how much they get paid, how effective the teachers are.


First, a real surprise was that Israel has ineffective teachers who don't work much, and don't get paid very much. assumption was that they would be off the chart the other end.

Canada works their teachers but par a lot.

Korea doesn't pay teachers very much. But they get the same level of output. They also require a little bit more hours.



An interesting chart


Teachers’ pay and working hours in the OECD

Apr 26th 2016, 15:05BY THE DATA TEAM

Teaching assistance
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/04/daily-chart-18?fsrc=permar|image1

ATTRACTING bright, motivated people into teaching is a struggle in many countries. Low pay is often blamed, especially when it is combined with long working hours. The difficulties of teacher recruitment, one argument goes, is why pupils in some countries do so poorly in school. But data from the OECD, a club of mostly rich countries, suggest that—at least for educational outcomes—neither hours nor pay matters much. Japanese and South Korean pupils are neck-and-neck near the top of the PISA rankings of 15-year-olds’ literacy, numeracy and scientific knowledge. Their teachers are paid about the same, but put in vastly different hours: a whopping 54 hours per week in Japan, compared with 37 in South Korea. Pupils in Estonia, which has the lowest-paid teachers in the group, do better than those in the Netherlands, where teachers’ salaries are five times as high and hours just the same. Even when GDP per person is taken into account the Netherlands is unusually generous to teachers, and Estonia unusually stingy.

 

[Andylusion]

The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money. There is only two countries that pay more than we do. Netherlands and Canada.

This non-stop drum beat, that we need to shell out more money, is crazy.

The second thing to grasp, is that some of the lowest paid teachers, are producing the highest quality students. Finland, Estonia, Poland, all out perform US students by a wide margin, and yet are paid a fraction as much.

I wager Vietnam, and Taiwan are also paid a fraction as much, but are not on your list.

The third thing to grasp, is that most of these education systems, spend less time teaching than do our teachers.

I would suggest that it's not really because they are just so amazing, that they can teach in 4 hours, what our teachers take all day to teach.... but rather because they are not required to teach as much, other than the fundamentals.

 

[DGS49]

1. Any data on average teacher compensation in American public schools is worthless. The payscales vary immensely by state, geographical region, and the strength of the teachers' unions. Where I live the public school teachers' pay scale goes well into 6 figures, and about half of the existing teachers are there already. But that ain't typical. There are school districts within easy driving distance of my home where the scales max out at $70k.
2. Garbage in; garbage out. In countries (and neighborhoods) where the culture places a high value on academics, you could have college upperclassmen teach and the results would be fine. In places where academics are unimportant, even great teachers will struggle to get good "outcomes."
3. The American public school calendar is based on the needs of a society where most of the students must help out on the family farm in Summer. The fact that we have never changed it is absolutely outrageous. The loss of academic progress (and the criminal waste of time) during the 2+ months of Summer vacation is a crime.
4. The American school system is absolutely hamstrung by the strength of the teachers' unions, who have NO INTEREST whatsoever in education, but only the betterment of their members' interests - education be damned.
5. The American public school system is so infected with the cancer of "extracurricular activities" that it is a wonder anyone learns anything. We are the only developed country in the world that has school sports. Everywhere else, sports are done recreationally, and managed by private clubs. Exhibit A: A college scholarship for "Cheerleading." Could anything else be as ridiculous?

It's a good thing I'm not the Czar of American Education.

 

[browsing deer]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

 

[Andylusion]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

 

[koshergrl]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

My kids don't receive science books. If they want to use a book, they have to check it out.

Wtf. All the money that the schools get, and they can't provide a science book to my kid? It all goes to the admin and the teachers.

And the science teacher is a freaking lunatic. I just spoke to her on the phone, I called to talk to her because my son said he was having difficulty in the class...and she was literally raving. I called the principal and said get my kid out of that class NOW. I don't know what her problem is, but my kid isn't going to be exposed to it. And I get the feeling I'm not the only one that's calling....

Anything they pay that pos is too much.

 

[DGS49]

KG I think you've overstated the case. Your son can USE the book, but he can't take it home unless he checks it out.

Homework should be banned. The school day should be 8 hours long, and 2-3 of those hours should be dedicated to workshops, where the kids do problems, write essays, and otherwise practice the learning that they get in the instructional times. A typical good student today spends more than 8 hours on school stuff, all things considered.

And the reason why this will never happen is that extracurricular activities are more important than education. If the kids spent 8 hours doing academic things, there would be no time for fun & games.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week. They have summers off and holiday time and half days.

They have more time off than anyone

 

[Andylusion]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

My kids don't receive science books. If they want to use a book, they have to check it out.

Wtf. All the money that the schools get, and they can't provide a science book to my kid? It all goes to the admin and the teachers.

And the science teacher is a freaking lunatic. I just spoke to her on the phone, I called to talk to her because my son said he was having difficulty in the class...and she was literally raving. I called the principal and said get my kid out of that class NOW. I don't know what her problem is, but my kid isn't going to be exposed to it. And I get the feeling I'm not the only one that's calling....

Anything they pay that pos is too much.

And better yet, if the teacher is bad, there is almost nothing the principal can do. School principals today, have about as much power as a prison warden, where the prison is owned and operated by the inmates, and every convict has both the keys and the locks to every room.

I was reading about Finland, and the one thing the Finnish school people THEMSELVES were complaining about, was the teachers Unions. They were talking about teachers who showed up in the class room, completely plastered. Drunk out of their minds, and the school administration couldn't do much except require the teacher sign up for classes for alcoholics, but couldn't even require that they show up for the classes. They could come to work drunk for 10 years, before the union contracts and control on administration allowed them to be removed.

 

[DGS49]

Finland is not a good example. With the terrible climate and the extremely short winter days, alcoholism is endemic.

 

[Andylusion]

Finland is not a good example. With the terrible climate and the extremely short winter days, alcoholism is endemic.

I'm confused by that response. Are you suggesting that having the climate, and winter days, means that you would have no problem with your child NOT being taught because their teacher was in a drunken alcoholic stupor in the classroom?

Would you have the breaks on your car fixed by a drunken alcoholic mechanic in a stupor? Would you trust a drunken alcoholic doctor to operate on you?

Would you accept that, if the Doctors Unions, prevented you from refusing to be operated by a doctor, clearly intoxicated, and barely able to stand?

It's always funny when people try and defend something, that if the positions were reversed, they would never tolerate.

 

[Unkotare]

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.

Yeah, it's a lot more than that.

 

[bodecea]

You'd think, with all the RWrs saying that teachers in this country have big vacations and are overpaid and are protected from ever being fired....they'd flock to teaching. So....why is there currently a teacher shortage in this country?

 

[Skull Pilot]

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.

Yeah, it's a lot more than that.

Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job

 

[Andylusion]

You'd think, with all the RWrs saying that teachers in this country have big vacations and are overpaid and are protected from ever being fired....they'd flock to teaching. So....why is there currently a teacher shortage in this country?

There isn't. Statically, there is no teacher shortage.

Pupil-teacher ratio in primary education (headcount basis) | Data | Table

The number of students per teacher, is fairly on par with the rest of the 1st world. If anything, we're at the higher end of the number of teachers.

Class room size is also fairly on par. Ironically, the countries with massive class sizes are also some of the top education systems in the world. Korea, Japan, Germany. Even Poland, Spain and France, rank higher educationally, and have larger class sizes than we do.

So there is no short of teachers on the national level.

The shortage of teachers is at the local level. Here in the upper middle class school system of Hilliard, there is a waiting list for teaching positions. People apply constantly.

However the same is not true in the inner city. My sister actually was planning to be a teacher, and applied for one of those "teach here for x years, and your student loans are forgiven." They required her to spend one week in the school to determine if she could handle it, and after that week, she canceled and dropped out.

The students are out of control, the staff was mean, and there was nothing you could do. Can't smack the kids. Can't send them all to the principals office. And you certainly can't teach much.

In those public schools, yeah... there's a teacher shortage. No freakin duh. But in the rest of the country, where kids are not insane, and teachers can actually get rid of bad kids, they have an abundance of applications for teaching positions.

This is one of the reasons I'm so against the public school system.

In good schools, you end up with bad teachers you can't fire because of the Unions.
In bad schools, you end kids you can't teach, out of control, and can't get rid of because of parents.

And then you wonder why private schools routinely cost less money to operate, and end up with vastly better educational results.

 

[Andylusion]

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.

Yeah, it's a lot more than that.

Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job

Hey hey guys..... Both my parents were public school teachers. It's not all fun and games. And now that they are retired and are millionaires, not including their tax payer funded pensions.... figuring out how to spend their money is a full time gig.

You should have seen them trying to figure out how they wanted to renovate their new lake house on Lake Erie. It takes a lot out of you!

 

[Unkotare]

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.

Yeah, it's a lot more than that.

Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job

Mandatory training and retraining on-going.

Many unpaid obligations.


A lot more than a full-time job. A hell of a lot more than 45 hours a week.

 

[Unkotare]

....

However the same is not true in the inner city. My sister actually was planning to be a teacher, and applied for one of those "teach here for x years, and your student loans are forgiven." They required her to spend one week in the school to determine if she could handle it, and after that week, she canceled and dropped out.....

It's not for the faint of heart.

 

[Unkotare]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. ....

Don't doubt it.

And the importance of athletics as a part of overall education has been recognized since the time of the ancient Greeks.

 

[Unkotare]

...

Homework should be banned. ....
And the reason why this will never happen is that extracurricular activities are more important than education. .....

Both of these statements are absurd.