How is austerity doing in Europe

[itfitzme]

Ed is a admitted libertarian. *So, I keep asking him for an example of a successful libertarian economy. *Can you believe that ed is incapable of doing so? *Tried the USA once. *But, his heroes (Koch bros, et al) want the economy to move in that direction. *They are smart enough to know that moving in that direction will make them richer and more powerful. *They probably also know that they will NEVER get to an actual libertarian economy. *But poor ed is not smart enough to know all that.

I wouldn't go so far as to insult the entire Libertarian party, Libertarian Party | Maximum Freedom, Minimum Government, without getting to know them better.

...

How awesome for econ when we find any periods or nations of reasonably predominate anything. *To bad he doesn't know of any. *I'm quite disappointed. *Never hurts to ask.

I know them well. *But all one has to know is that libertarianism does not work. *Never has, and never will. *There needs to be a balance between gov and bus. *Too far either way, it will never work because the people of the nation will never let it.
Just as communism does not work for the long term, after the advantages of central planning have played out, so libertarianism leads to the absolute power of a few extremely wealthy cats who control everything, including the gov. *And the result is a cesspool for the workers. *And revolt, and tyranny will always result. *If it ever gets that far.

You gotta figure there is a reason we don't see it. 195,000 years of homosapiens, 50,000 years of tools, 12,000 years of culture, 10,000 years of agriculture, 4,000 years of writing, and 200 years of democracy. *

Seems like plenty of time to develop. * *And with the world nations converging to mixed economies, it doesn't look like an idea that's time has come. *More like came and went.

It sounds more like what you get when you breed animals for dominate characteristics. *To stupid to breed on it's own.

 

[Rshermr]

I wouldn't go so far as to insult the entire Libertarian party, Libertarian Party | Maximum Freedom, Minimum Government, without getting to know them better.

...

How awesome for econ when we find any periods or nations of reasonably predominate anything. *To bad he doesn't know of any. *I'm quite disappointed. *Never hurts to ask.

I know them well. *But all one has to know is that libertarianism does not work. *Never has, and never will. *There needs to be a balance between gov and bus. *Too far either way, it will never work because the people of the nation will never let it.
Just as communism does not work for the long term, after the advantages of central planning have played out, so libertarianism leads to the absolute power of a few extremely wealthy cats who control everything, including the gov. *And the result is a cesspool for the workers. *And revolt, and tyranny will always result. *If it ever gets that far.

You gotta figure there is a reason we don't see it. 195,000 years of homosapiens, 50,000 years of tools, 12,000 years of culture, 10,000 years of agriculture, 4,000 years of writing, and 200 years of democracy. *

Seems like plenty of time to develop. * *And with the world nations converging to mixed economies, it doesn't look like an idea that's time has come. *More like came and went.

It sounds more like what you get when you breed animals for dominate characteristics. *To stupid to breed on it's own.

Yup. And so you get ED!!

 

[Oldstyle]

I wouldn't go so far as to insult the entire Libertarian party, Libertarian Party | Maximum Freedom, Minimum Government, without getting to know them better.

...

How awesome for econ when we find any periods or nations of reasonably predominate anything. *To bad he doesn't know of any. *I'm quite disappointed. *Never hurts to ask.

I know them well. *But all one has to know is that libertarianism does not work. *Never has, and never will. *There needs to be a balance between gov and bus. *Too far either way, it will never work because the people of the nation will never let it.
Just as communism does not work for the long term, after the advantages of central planning have played out, so libertarianism leads to the absolute power of a few extremely wealthy cats who control everything, including the gov. *And the result is a cesspool for the workers. *And revolt, and tyranny will always result. *If it ever gets that far.

You gotta figure there is a reason we don't see it. 195,000 years of homosapiens, 50,000 years of tools, 12,000 years of culture, 10,000 years of agriculture, 4,000 years of writing, and 200 years of democracy. *

Seems like plenty of time to develop. * *And with the world nations converging to mixed economies, it doesn't look like an idea that's time has come. *More like came and went.

It sounds more like what you get when you breed animals for dominate characteristics. *To stupid to breed on it's own.

Ah, hate to break this to you, Sparky but Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states. 200 years?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

so libertarianism leads to the absolute power of a few extremely wealthy cats who control everything, including the gov.

Obviously then its no longer libertarian. We need to think before we write don't we?

 

[itfitzme]

I know them well. *But all one has to know is that libertarianism does not work. *Never has, and never will. *There needs to be a balance between gov and bus. *Too far either way, it will never work because the people of the nation will never let it.
Just as communism does not work for the long term, after the advantages of central planning have played out, so libertarianism leads to the absolute power of a few extremely wealthy cats who control everything, including the gov. *And the result is a cesspool for the workers. *And revolt, and tyranny will always result. *If it ever gets that far.

You gotta figure there is a reason we don't see it. 195,000 years of homosapiens, 50,000 years of tools, 12,000 years of culture, 10,000 years of agriculture, 4,000 years of writing, and 200 years of democracy. *

Seems like plenty of time to develop. * *And with the world nations converging to mixed economies, it doesn't look like an idea that's time has come. *More like came and went.

It sounds more like what you get when you breed animals for dominate characteristics. *To stupid to breed on it's own.

Ah, hate to break this to you, Sparky but Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states. 200 years?

Okay. So what's you're point, that it's older than the US? That I haven't read everything? That there has been a Libertarian nation?

Or are you just jerking yourself off?

 

[itfitzme]

so libertarianism leads to the absolute power of a few extremely wealthy cats who control everything, including the gov.

Obviously then its no longer libertarian. We need to think before we write don't we?

So how you doing on;

Carnout ologopolies of m firms?

when capitalism first began to be undermined?

A historic example of a nation that was predominately seperate capitalism and gov't.

 

[Oldstyle]

You gotta figure there is a reason we don't see it. 195,000 years of homosapiens, 50,000 years of tools, 12,000 years of culture, 10,000 years of agriculture, 4,000 years of writing, and 200 years of democracy. *

Seems like plenty of time to develop. * *And with the world nations converging to mixed economies, it doesn't look like an idea that's time has come. *More like came and went.

It sounds more like what you get when you breed animals for dominate characteristics. *To stupid to breed on it's own.

Ah, hate to break this to you, Sparky but Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states. 200 years?

Okay. So what's you're point, that it's older than the US? That I haven't read everything? That there has been a Libertarian nation?

Or are you just jerking yourself off?

My point would be that Democracy has been around for a lot longer than 200 years and YES...it's older than the US.

I would also put forward the point that the United States of America is in many ways the foremost example of a libertarian nation...taking many of John Locke's libertarian ideas and using them in the framing of the Declaration of Independence.

And in case you haven't figured it out...Rshermr is the "jerk off" of this board. He's the pathological liar who says he taught college economics classes as an undergrad yet doesn't understand basic Keynesian economics and thinks a "school of economics" is an actual college campus.

 

[Rshermr]

Ah, hate to break this to you, Sparky but Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states. 200 years?

Okay. So what's you're point, that it's older than the US? That I haven't read everything? That there has been a Libertarian nation?

Or are you just jerking yourself off?

My point would be that Democracy has been around for a lot longer than 200 years and YES...it's older than the US.

I would also put forward the point that the United States of America is in many ways the foremost example of a libertarian nation...taking many of John Locke's libertarian ideas and using them in the framing of the Declaration of Independence.

And in case you haven't figured it out...Rshermr is the "jerk off" of this board. He's the pathological liar who says he taught college economics classes as an undergrad yet doesn't understand basic Keynesian economics and thinks a "school of economics" is an actual college campus.

And that would be Oldstyle. Lying like a rug as usual.

Oldstyle is a con tool. He gets his stuff from the bat shit crazy con web sites. Then, when he is proven a liar, he starts his attacks. And never, ever stops. Never, ever talks about the subject of the thread again. Because he can not.
Oldstyle is a food services employee. I believe that means dishwasher. Because he posts all the time, at work. Says his boss does not mind. Can you imagine a job insignificant enough that he his boss does not mind him posting on a blog.
What he says about me is largely untrue. First, I do indeed understand Keynesian economics. He had two economics classes and now thinks he is an expert. And I do indeed understand School of Economics. Another lie from Oldstyle. In the midst of playing games, saying the same thing for the 30th time (or so) he said something about an economic school. I was not paying much attention, and thought he was talking about a university, given the context. Again, he has made this claim at least 50 times.
So, what you will see from here is personal attacks and game playing from the clown.

Here is an example. I did not teach an economics class as an undergrad. I taught part of a class for an econ proff, using his class plan and schedule. Over 45 years ago. No big deal. Simply something that Oldstyle has grabbed hold of. He has made this same accusation at least 50 times. After, as the following will show, he said he would stop if I agreed to provide some details. He did not. Because he has absolutely no integrity. Here are the relevant posts, just to keep it short:

Thread: Consumers Create Jobs
08-16-2012, 07:34 AM Post #166
Rshermr
Registered User
Member #37424


of course, you lie again, as I did not lie and you therefore could not have caught me in a lie."
Are you really so stupid that you can't understand that repeating over and over that you don't lie without providing proof is a worthless exercise?

This is very simple...
You've stated that you taught college courses as an undergraduate. I've stated that I don't believe you because undergrads don't teach classes and that I think you're lying when you make that claim.
So this is the point where you make me eat my words by telling us all the name of the college where you taught...the name of the professor who you were a TA for...and the name of the class that you taught. When you DO that, you'll prove that you're not a liar. When you keep ducking those questions, then you'll continue to prove that I'm correct.
Balls in your court, Sparky...

Ok, me boy. You have grovelled enough. Central Washington State, dr. Clair Lillard, Econ 100, econ for non economics Majors, I was not a TA, simply taught part of the class at a time, usually around 30 students or so, 4 days per week. Clair was a international econ specialist, specifically interested in S. American economics. I did not get paid for my efforts. Did get tuition relief. Good as I was very broke.
But as you will soon show, this proves nothing. You had my word, which is good for most. What I did 45 years ago is not provable today, nor do I care what you believe. Your premise, that I prove myself a liar, should I not respond to you, is total BS. As was your efforts to push this as you did. And may still. The only reason I am responding is to get you to spend your efforts at economics topics instead of wasting time trying to prove me a liar, which I am not. You see, oldstyle, I do not lie, as I prefer to maintain my integrity. A life obsession. Which is why I see you as a shit. And as I have told you, because this was a very small part of my life. Certainly not something that I brag about. But it served a purpose. It showed me that you learn more teaching a class than attending one.


So, as you can see, this was over a year ago. And Oldstyle has proven himself a liar. And that he has no integrity. But that is Oldstyle. He just keeps on with the attacks, insults, and accusations. Which is pretty much all he is capable of.

 

[Rshermr]

Ah, hate to break this to you, Sparky but Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states. 200 years?

Okay. So what's you're point, that it's older than the US? That I haven't read everything? That there has been a Libertarian nation?

Or are you just jerking yourself off?

My point would be that Democracy has been around for a lot longer than 200 years and YES...it's older than the US.

I would also put forward the point that the United States of America is in many ways the foremost example of a libertarian nation...taking many of John Locke's libertarian ideas and using them in the framing of the Declaration of Independence.

And in case you haven't figured it out...Rshermr is the "jerk off" of this board. He's the pathological liar who says he taught college economics classes as an undergrad yet doesn't understand basic Keynesian economics and thinks a "school of economics" is an actual college campus.

So, Oldstyle says:

I would also put forward the point that the United States of America is in many ways the foremost example of a libertarian nation...taking many of John Locke's libertarian ideas and using them in the framing of the Declaration of Independence.

Again, do you have a point Are you saying that we are an example of a libertarian nation because you believe that many of john loche's ideas were used in the Declaration of Independence?? You must have a source for this, right???
As far as being a foremost example of libertarian nation, you may want to take a look around. Anyone who would call the US libertarian is brain dead. Only Ed has ever made that claim, and then even he backed down.
So, Oldstyle, your statement does not pass the giggle test. I remember you saying you were not a libertarian. Then found that your only economic hero is a libertarian. I think maybe you are a libertarian, just know you can not support it.
So, where is that libertarian economy. Where is that country with the libertarian economy. Google which country is libertarian, and you will find all kinds of self admitted libertarians trying to find that nation themselves. To no avail.

 

[Oldstyle]

Poor Tommy...still whining about being exposed as a complete bullshit artist! Still begging to be let off the hook for that silly lie about teaching college level economics. You were forced to walk that claim back one step at a time, Rshermr because it was quickly evident that you didn't even know the BASICS of economics let alone have the where with all to TEACH the subject.

You continue to amuse, little buddy. Now your excuse for not knowing what was being referred to when I spoke about a school of economics is that you weren't paying attention? Really?

Internet liars generally get caught because they paint themselves into a corner by pretending to be or know things that it quickly becomes apparent that they know nothing about. Your claim to have taught economics in college is the perfect example of that.

 

[itfitzme]

Ah, hate to break this to you, Sparky but Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states. *200 years?

Okay. *So what's you're point, that it's older than the US? That I haven't read everything? That there has been a Libertarian nation?*

Or are you just jerking yourself off?

My point would be that Democracy has been around for a lot longer than 200 years and YES...it's older than the US.

I would also put forward the point that the United States of America is in many ways the foremost example of a libertarian nation...taking many of John Locke's libertarian ideas and using them in the framing of the Declaration of Independence.

And in case you haven't figured it out...Rshermr is the "jerk off" of this board. *He's the pathological liar who says he taught college economics classes as an undergrad yet doesn't understand basic Keynesian economics and thinks a "school of economics" is an actual college campus.

Well great, democracy has been around for more than 200 years. *So that would be better then. *Even more time to have developed.

I can't quibble with that.

 

[itfitzme]

so libertarianism leads to the absolute power of a few extremely wealthy cats who control everything, including the gov.

Obviously then its no longer libertarian. We need to think before we write don't we?

Because it didn't work. Really Ed, are you really that dumb or do you just pretend to be?

 

[itfitzme]

Ah, hate to break this to you, Sparky but Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states. *200 years?

Okay. *So what's you're point, that it's older than the US? That I haven't read everything? That there has been a Libertarian nation?*

Or are you just jerking yourself off?

My point would be that Democracy has been around for a lot longer than 200 years and YES...it's older than the US.

I would also put forward the point that the United States of America is in many ways the foremost example of a libertarian nation...taking many of John Locke's libertarian ideas and using them in the framing of the Declaration of Independence.

And in case you haven't figured it out...Rshermr is the "jerk off" of this board. *He's the pathological liar who says he taught college economics classes as an undergrad yet doesn't understand basic Keynesian economics and thinks a "school of economics" is an actual college campus.

What's that saying about the company we keep?

 

[itfitzme]

Poor Tommy...still whining about being exposed as a complete bullshit artist! *Still begging to be let off the hook for that silly lie about teaching college level economics. *You were forced to walk that claim back one step at a time, Rshermr because it was quickly evident that you didn't even know the BASICS of economics let alone have the where with all to TEACH the subject.

You continue to amuse, little buddy. *Now your excuse for not knowing what was being referred to when I spoke about a school of economics is that you weren't paying attention? *Really? *

Internet liars generally get caught because they paint themselves into a corner by pretending to be or know things that it quickly becomes apparent that they know nothing about. *Your claim to have taught economics in college is the perfect example of that.

Kinda irrelevant. *Either the ideas stand on their own or they don't. *Problem with econ is it generally comes down to no solid empirical evidence. *econometrics really took off with the invention of the PC. Now the average economist can actually crunch some data.

I'm still waiting for for that pure examples of capitalism and libertarian economy and nation. *Either that or something fairly substantial that demonstrates their sustainability.

Now I am to understand that "Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states" yer those 5th Century Greek State somehow got lost on the dustbin of time. *So how come their not around any more? *What happened? *So democracy was tried and failed only to attempt a resurection later? *Doesn't seem like very strong evidence cor democracy either.

 

[Oldstyle]

Poor Tommy...still whining about being exposed as a complete bullshit artist! *Still begging to be let off the hook for that silly lie about teaching college level economics. *You were forced to walk that claim back one step at a time, Rshermr because it was quickly evident that you didn't even know the BASICS of economics let alone have the where with all to TEACH the subject.

You continue to amuse, little buddy. *Now your excuse for not knowing what was being referred to when I spoke about a school of economics is that you weren't paying attention? *Really? *

Internet liars generally get caught because they paint themselves into a corner by pretending to be or know things that it quickly becomes apparent that they know nothing about. *Your claim to have taught economics in college is the perfect example of that.

Kinda irrelevant. *Either the ideas stand on their own or they don't. *Problem with econ is it generally comes down to no solid empirical evidence. *econometrics really took off with the invention of the PC. Now the average economist can actually crunch some data.

I'm still waiting for for that pure examples of capitalism and libertarian economy and nation. *Either that or something fairly substantial that demonstrates their sustainability.

Now I am to understand that "Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states" yer those 5th Century Greek State somehow got lost on the dustbin of time. *So how come their not around any more? *What happened? *So democracy was tried and failed only to attempt a resurection later? *Doesn't seem like very strong evidence cor democracy either.

"Pure examples" of capitalism don't exist...just as pure examples of communism don't exist. Everything is a hybrid. That being said...the United States began it's existence with both a strong capitalist foundation and a strong libertarian slant. You could make the case that both of those things contributed in major ways to the subsequent success of the country. You could also make a strong case that the path we've taken since the Great Depression and FDR's "New Deal", have made us less of a capitalistic nation with less of a libertarian slant and because of that our country has become a shadow of it's former self.

 

[Rshermr]

So, Oldstyle, as I said, continues on with his attacks.

Poor Tommy...still whining about being exposed as a complete bullshit artist! Still begging to be let off the hook for that silly lie about teaching college level economics.

Name is not tommy. And I am not poor. I have integrity, and I do not lie. You have none, and lie continually.

If you could read your own post, you would know that there was no begging. If you read the post, you know that I said that you would go on with you claims about me. And you did. But, you know I never lie. Ever. Just makes you crazy. But you do. As the little lie above demonstrates. Please show me where I ever begged you for anything. Never happened. Just another of your lies.

You were forced to walk that claim back one step at a time, Rshermr because it was quickly evident that you didn't even know the BASICS of economics let alone have the where with all to TEACH the subject.

And again you lie. Just can not stop yourself, can you, oldstyle. I never, ever walked anything back. Jesus, you are a true sociopath.

Quote:
You continue to amuse, little buddy. Now your excuse for not knowing what was being referred to when I spoke about a school of economics is that you weren't paying attention? Really?
I am not little. And I am not your buddy. I will let you know if I ever want to be your buddy. But it is unlikely. I hate sociopaths.

Even in the state of complete boredom that I was in when I looked at that question, I would have know immediately if you had said school of economics what you were referring to.. You did not. Just another lie. You lie so easily, where most people would have a conscience. Are you a sociopath, oldstyle. Or do you simply totally lack integrity.

 

[westwall]

So, there has been a lot of talks about the austerity programs being pushed on european countries. Lots of blame being placed on the countries where austerity is in place, from all sorts of folks. Austerity is, in general, a forced program of free market policies with the primary plan being the reduction of debt by elimination of government spending. The stated projected outcome is that debt will be reduced, GDP will grow, and employment will be increased.
I have been waiting to determine what the outcome is likely to be. My want is that it would be most likely that Austerity would be a disaster. But I felt I owed it a look before mouthing off about the absurdity of the whole thing. And in my opinion, my opinion is of little value until there is some proof of the likely outcome. So, I kept watching, and after a year or two, I think the verdict is close to in. Increasingly. impartial sources close to the subject have become more and more and more pessimistic. And we are close to a time when it will be the decesion of most, by a wide margin, that austerity has failed, or is failing, in pretty much every country where it has been instituted.
Here is an article out of the UK that is very representative of what is being said:

We should be interested. Austerity has some major similarities to our own fiscal cliff issues. We should be interested. European austerity is the model for neo conservative policies. Looking at how things are going, from a realistic point of view, should be useful.

Do you know what got them into their Economic Crisis in the first place?

It certainly was not austerity!
Greece News - Breaking World Greece News - The New York Times

French president François Hollande has bowed to massive pressure for business tax cuts to pull France’s economy out of slump and stave off industrial decline, ditching a core element of his socialist platform.

Francois-Hollande-lurches-Right-in-historic-U-Turn-to-save-French-economy.html
Critics call it the most humiliating U-turn in French politics since François Mitterrand abandoned his disastrous experiment of "Socialism in one country" under a D-Mark currency peg in 1983.

All of Europe made three big mistakes causing their Economic Crisis.

Our President is taking us forward to an even greater Economic Crisis.

The Democrats have no idea that the President continues to pursue an economic policy that has never worked. Europe is a perfect example of how this Economic Theory fails.

Do you even know what the name of this failed Economic Theory is?

You are living proof of just how bad our Public Education System has become.

The main reason for economic problems in Europe is the world wide recession, not EU economic policies.

That is laughable. I suggest you read some economic history to get a grasp of just what socialism does to a countries willingness to work. Workers can only support so many non workers...Greece has also got the added problem of a severely bloated public employee pool.

 

[Rshermr]

Poor Tommy...still whining about being exposed as a complete bullshit artist! *Still begging to be let off the hook for that silly lie about teaching college level economics. *You were forced to walk that claim back one step at a time, Rshermr because it was quickly evident that you didn't even know the BASICS of economics let alone have the where with all to TEACH the subject.

You continue to amuse, little buddy. *Now your excuse for not knowing what was being referred to when I spoke about a school of economics is that you weren't paying attention? *Really? *

Internet liars generally get caught because they paint themselves into a corner by pretending to be or know things that it quickly becomes apparent that they know nothing about. *Your claim to have taught economics in college is the perfect example of that.

Kinda irrelevant. *Either the ideas stand on their own or they don't. *Problem with econ is it generally comes down to no solid empirical evidence. *econometrics really took off with the invention of the PC. Now the average economist can actually crunch some data.

I'm still waiting for for that pure examples of capitalism and libertarian economy and nation. *Either that or something fairly substantial that demonstrates their sustainability.

Now I am to understand that "Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states" yer those 5th Century Greek State somehow got lost on the dustbin of time. *So how come their not around any more? *What happened? *So democracy was tried and failed only to attempt a resurection later? *Doesn't seem like very strong evidence cor democracy either.

"Pure examples" of capitalism don't exist...just as pure examples of communism don't exist. Everything is a hybrid. That being said...the United States began it's existence with both a strong capitalist foundation and a strong libertarian slant. You could make the case that both of those things contributed in major ways to the subsequent success of the country. You could also make a strong case that the path we've taken since the Great Depression and FDR's "New Deal", have made us less of a capitalistic nation with less of a libertarian slant and because of that our country has become a shadow of it's former self.

Many economies tend to START as fairly libertarian in nature. But when they do, they tend to move forward more slowly than others. But, the question is not what was somewhat libertarian, but where is an actual example of a libertarian, or even pure capitalistic, economy in any nation. And there are none. They sometimes start out that way, but they do not last.
They do not last because the populations of those countries that are faced with them do not like them. They fail because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And in every single case, that has been what has happened.

Your statement about the downturn of our country as a result of the great depression is straight out of the bat shit crazy con web sites. What is your proof, and what terrible things have happened that came about to crush what you apparently thought was a libertarian leaning nation?

 

[Oldstyle]

Kinda irrelevant. *Either the ideas stand on their own or they don't. *Problem with econ is it generally comes down to no solid empirical evidence. *econometrics really took off with the invention of the PC. Now the average economist can actually crunch some data.

I'm still waiting for for that pure examples of capitalism and libertarian economy and nation. *Either that or something fairly substantial that demonstrates their sustainability.

Now I am to understand that "Democracy has been around since the 5th Century Greek city states" yer those 5th Century Greek State somehow got lost on the dustbin of time. *So how come their not around any more? *What happened? *So democracy was tried and failed only to attempt a resurection later? *Doesn't seem like very strong evidence cor democracy either.

"Pure examples" of capitalism don't exist...just as pure examples of communism don't exist. Everything is a hybrid. That being said...the United States began it's existence with both a strong capitalist foundation and a strong libertarian slant. You could make the case that both of those things contributed in major ways to the subsequent success of the country. You could also make a strong case that the path we've taken since the Great Depression and FDR's "New Deal", have made us less of a capitalistic nation with less of a libertarian slant and because of that our country has become a shadow of it's former self.

Many economies tend to START as fairly libertarian in nature. But when they do, they tend to move forward more slowly than others. But, the question is not what was somewhat libertarian, but where is an actual example of a libertarian, or even pure capitalistic, economy in any nation. And there are none. They sometimes start out that way, but they do not last.
They do not last because the populations of those countries that are faced with them do not like them. They fail because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And in every single case, that has been what has happened.

Your statement about the downturn of our country as a result of the great depression is straight out of the bat shit crazy con web sites. What is your proof, and what terrible things have happened that came about to crush what you apparently thought was a libertarian leaning nation?

You're as ignorant about political science as you are about economics, Tommy. The entire premise behind libertarianism is the retention of personal freedoms and the putting in place checks and balances to restrain the power of government. The reason I state that the US was an example of libertarianism is that the country was formed in large part because the founding fathers didn't want to comply with the dictates of a king. A monarchy is absolute power! THAT is what liberalism was designed to negate.

As for the rest of your little rant? What's the biggest problem facing the country right now? A looming insolvency due to out of control entitlements? Where did all of THAT get it's start? FDR's New Deal was a fork in the road in which we chose a new path. That path has led us here. And HERE is not a better place for American!

 

[Rshermr]

So, Oldstyle says:

You're as ignorant about political science as you are about economics, Tommy.

So, Oldstyle starts with an insult right out of the box. What you do not yet understand, apparently, is that is your opinion. And no one respects you opinion. So, lets see your argument. I am sure shortly, we will be back to no arguments and entirely personal attacks;

The entire premise behind libertarianism is the retention of personal freedoms and the putting in place checks and balances to restrain the power of government. The reason I state that the US was an example of libertarianism is that the country was formed in large part because the founding fathers didn't want to comply with the dictates of a king. A monarchy is absolute power!

True, and I never said that it was not. Too much gov is a bad thing. When gov is out of control of the population, bad things can happen. Again, power corrupts..... Be it gov or be it corporate. But you may want to remember the fact that the founding fathers were also afraid of corporate power. The start of the revolution, that whole Tea Party thing in Boston, was a revolt against a corporation.
In the states, as they were formed, were very strict rules against the formation and activities of corporations. You tend to forget that. And there were fewer than 5 corporations at the time of the start of the revolution.

THAT is what liberalism was designed to negate.

That is your interpretation. Your opinion again. Libertarianism today is supported by very wealthy folks. The Koch brothers founded the largest libertarian think tank in the world. Cato, and another over 80 "think tanks" that espouse libertarian views, are in all cases run by very wealthy far, far right wing political minded operatives who have views about the same as you post here. But their reason for their intent is largely believed to be to control politics and back libertarian views in any way they can. Including huge amounts of expenditures in political races, payments directly to politicians and economist to express their views, taking over of publications to further their ideas, and efforts to control colleges through grants with strings requiring the hiring of instructors with libertarian views. And those activities, and that concentration of power, is EXACTLY what the founders of this country feared. Not just concentration of power in gov, but concentration of power anywhere. Including the private sector.

As for the rest of your little rant?

Another personal attack?? Just can not live without them, can ya. Personal views are not rants. I could call what you said a rant. But I am simply arguing what I believe, trying to stay away from the attacks.

What's the biggest problem facing the country right now? A looming insolvency due to out of control entitlements?

I would disagree. As would almost all economists. What exists as our largest problem today, in the minds of most economists, is the continuation of high unemployment, and the reduction in personal wealth resulting from the recession of 2008.

Where did all of THAT get it's start? FDR's New Deal was a fork in the road in which we chose a new path. That path has led us here. And HERE is not a better place for American!

Your opinion again. If you would study the great depression, and the reason it occurred with an open mind, you could very well have a different view. Unemployment was at 25% BEFORE the inauguration of FDR. Even hoover had begun efforts at raising money for stimulus spending. You would have been, had you lived there with your views, in a very small minority. People were living and dying on the streets. Starving to death. But a few very wealthy were doing quite well. So, you had a very normal outcome of Liaise Faire economics. Concentration of wealth, control of the gov by the wealthy, and the inevitable crash. Power corrupts...
You are correct in saying "we chose a new path". Democracy, one vote per citizen, all that sort of stuff. So, lets see how things were before the fork you expressed dissatisfaction with. It may give you an idea of why the populace wanted the gov to create a safety net (which they would pay for):


How did the Great Depression affect the lives and dreams of those that lived through it

I. The Great Depression

A. What made life so hard during the Great Depression?

1. Unemployment

2. Homelessness

3. Poverty

4. Destruction of families

5. Farm losses

B. What was President Herbert Hoover's economic policy during the depression?

1. Refused to use the Fed to increase money supply.

2. Followed Laissez Faire philosophy - left the economy alone: "the ship would right itself."

3. Believed in "Rugged Individualism" people should "pick themselves up by the boot straps..."

4. Passage of Smoot-Hawley Tariff (40% Protective Tariff)

5. Eventually created the Reconstruction Finance Corporation (RFC) to loan money to business but this was too little too late.

C. What was the reaction to Hoover's policies?

1. He was basically hated.

2. Homeless set up "Hoovervilles" - tent cities.

D. How did this effect people's perception of government?

1. They felt for the first time that government was not their to protect them.

2. People's ideals began to shift away from the conservative laissez faire ideology.

3. Those that lived through the depression are very frugal and careful with their money. They also tend to distrust banks.
Effects of the Great Depression

So, if you chose this place as opposed to where we are today, I would disagree with your statement that before FDR was a better place. Again, you would have been iamong a very small minority. Libertarian beliefs are diametrically opposed to the opinions of those who backed the supports put in place by the populace at that time.