How can we be sure Judaism's holy sites will be safe?

[Hoffstra]

Link? And why would anyone care what Eichmann said?

Adolf Eichmann said in his memoirs shortly before being captured by the Israelis:

"In the years that followed I often said to Jews with whom I had dealings with that, had I been a Jew, I would have been a fanatical Zionist. I could not imagine being anything else. In fact, I would have been the most fanatical Zionist possible."

LIFE - Google Books

page 22

 

[Jroc]

But no proof of that was provided, other than the Arabs attacked the newly formed state of Israel, lost the war, and as a result vacated the land they recently invaded and littered with mosques. (Isn't loosing a war you started a *****?)

Other than that there is no evidence of "destruction" only obvious abandonment, and only TWO documented cases where a mosque was turned into a synagogue.

No evidence of "Israeli destruction" provided.

"littered with Mosques"?

Thanks for exposing the Neo-Zionist mindset that is the problem here.

No sir, Mosques aren't "garbage", no more than Jewish headstones should be used for roadbeds.

No sir, the Arabs didn't vacate Israel. More than 300,000 of them were expelled by the Zionists.

There was no "expulsion" if so there would be no Arabs in Israel period idiot..The Arabs who left were told to leave by the by their Arabs brothers and to return after the Jews were crushed..it didn't happen

 

[P F Tinmore]

And, insofar as the so-called Palestinian Declaration of Statehood in 1948 is concerned...

The Jews beat them to it by four months plus change...

They'd already staked-out their claim, the very day that the British Mandate ended...

In grammar school, we used to call that "Dibs"...

"Hey, dummy, Ronnie offered-up his lunch-cookie, and I already called 'dibs'. It's mine!"

The Israelis already had a great deal of land under their control in May 1948 when they declared Statehood...

They merely beat the so-called Palestinians to the punch, when they called 'dibs' first, in connection with the lands that they already owned and occupied.

The Palestinians simply did not have their shit together, and didn't even both trying to 'declare' until four months later...

And by then, they were trying to 'call dibs' on somebody else's piece of the cookie...

A day late, and a shekel short...

As usual...

How about posting a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory Israel staked out before the Palestinian declaration?

 

[Hoffstra]

There was no "expulsion" if so there would be no Arabs in Israel period idiot..The Arabs who left were told to leave by the by their Arabs brothers and to return after the Jews were crushed..it didn't happen

300,000 or so Arabs were expelled by the Zionist forces during the war.

tens of thousands more were expelled in 1949-1950.

 

[Kondor3]

And, insofar as the so-called Palestinian Declaration of Statehood in 1948 is concerned...

The Jews beat them to it by four months plus change...

They'd already staked-out their claim, the very day that the British Mandate ended...

In grammar school, we used to call that "Dibs"...

"Hey, dummy, Ronnie offered-up his lunch-cookie, and I already called 'dibs'. It's mine!"

The Israelis already had a great deal of land under their control in May 1948 when they declared Statehood...

They merely beat the so-called Palestinians to the punch, when they called 'dibs' first, in connection with the lands that they already owned and occupied.

The Palestinians simply did not have their shit together, and didn't even both trying to 'declare' until four months later...

And by then, they were trying to 'call dibs' on somebody else's piece of the cookie...

A day late, and a shekel short...

As usual...

How about posting a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory Israel staked out before the Palestinian declaration?

Whatever for?

Any map showing the territory controlled by the Jews as of May 1948 would do nicely as a point of departure.

I suggest that you look for that within the collection of propaganda maps that your beloved Palestinian propagandists so love to publish.

Wherever Jews controlled a portion of the old British Mandate territory, there was a piece of Israel.

But the following should do nicely as a placeholder...

 

[Jroc]

There was no "expulsion" if so there would be no Arabs in Israel period idiot..The Arabs who left were told to leave by the by their Arabs brothers and to return after the Jews were crushed..it didn't happen

300,000 or so Arabs were expelled by the Zionist forces during the war.

tens of thousands more were expelled in 1949-1950.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuGqpFxogRg]Refugee - Arab states told Arabs to leave Israel in 1948 war - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Kondor3]

There was no "expulsion" if so there would be no Arabs in Israel period idiot..The Arabs who left were told to leave by the by their Arabs brothers and to return after the Jews were crushed..it didn't happen

300,000 or so Arabs were expelled by the Zionist forces during the war.

tens of thousands more were expelled in 1949-1950.

Far more fled because they did not want to live under Jewish rule, than were evicted.

They made the mistake of listening to their full-of-shit Arab neighbor-countries who encouraged them to flee until the Arabs could redeem their land for them and to push the Jews into the Med.

In listening to their Arab neighbors, the Palestinians chose poorly.

They (and their descendants) are now suffering the consequences of those poor choices.

I'll bet they'd love to time-warp back to 1948 for a Do-Over, eh?

 

[P F Tinmore]

There was no "expulsion" if so there would be no Arabs in Israel period idiot..The Arabs who left were told to leave by the by their Arabs brothers and to return after the Jews were crushed..it didn't happen

300,000 or so Arabs were expelled by the Zionist forces during the war.

tens of thousands more were expelled in 1949-1950.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuGqpFxogRg]Refugee - Arab states told Arabs to leave Israel in 1948 war - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd2fdoJxCcw]A Palestian talks about the Nakba -1/4 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Jroc]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn4r7ZjG9Nc]A PALESTINIAN MYTH - The so said NAKBA - YouTube[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

And, insofar as the so-called Palestinian Declaration of Statehood in 1948 is concerned...

The Jews beat them to it by four months plus change...

They'd already staked-out their claim, the very day that the British Mandate ended...

In grammar school, we used to call that "Dibs"...

"Hey, dummy, Ronnie offered-up his lunch-cookie, and I already called 'dibs'. It's mine!"

The Israelis already had a great deal of land under their control in May 1948 when they declared Statehood...

They merely beat the so-called Palestinians to the punch, when they called 'dibs' first, in connection with the lands that they already owned and occupied.

The Palestinians simply did not have their shit together, and didn't even both trying to 'declare' until four months later...

And by then, they were trying to 'call dibs' on somebody else's piece of the cookie...

A day late, and a shekel short...

As usual...

How about posting a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory Israel staked out before the Palestinian declaration?

Whatever for?

Any map showing the territory controlled by the Jews as of May 1948 would do nicely as a point of departure.

I suggest that you look for that within the collection of propaganda maps that your beloved Palestinian propagandists so love to publish.

Wherever Jews controlled a portion of the old British Mandate territory, there was a piece of Israel.

But the following should do nicely as a placeholder...

In other words you don't have jack shit.

Why don't you admit that you are blowing smoke out of your ass.

Just post a 1948 map of Israel. It is no big thing.

 

[Kondor3]

"...In other words you don't have jack shit. Why don't you admit that you are blowing smoke out of your ass. Just post a 1948 map of Israel. It is no big thing."

Sigh... what is your major malfunction now, oh petulant, naive, delusional one?

What part of 'wherever the Jews controlled a portion of the old Mandate, there was Israel' do you not understand?

The borders of the Jewish State were ill-defined until the Armistice of 1949, at which time the Green Line borders were recognized by both Israel and the warring Arab powers, and then recognized de facto by the United Nations in its peacekeeping missions.

One can find plenty of maps of the territories controlled by the Jews on May 15, 1948 and in the fighting of the next several weeks, as the Arabs attacked the Jews.

Whatever in the world leads you to believe that any of that old shit has the slightest importance whatsoever to the Realities of Today?

Whatever deficiencies of definition which existed as of May 15, 1948 were remedied in the following weeks, and again, by Israeli force of arms, were reinforced further, in the following year, as the fighting ground to a halt and the Armistice Agreements went into effect.

Whatever rhetorical victory you think you achieve by harping on the precision (or lack thereof) in defining the land-mass claimed by Israel in the earliest going, is, in actuality, and in the Real World in which most of the rest of us live, a phyrric victory at best, and a complete failure to come to grips with the way the Real World works, at worst.

 

[Kondor3]

Oh, and, if you are trying to foist upon us the idea that because the Jews did not precisely define the territory which they claimed, as part of their May 1948 Declaration of Independence, and that because the Arabs claimed all of Palestine for themselves four months later in 1948, that this somehow gives the Palestinians a substantive and operative superior claim to the lands controlled by the Jews, then, you are even more naive and delusional and impractical and petulant and child-like in your geopolitical thinking then I had feared, earlier.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You go over this at least twice a month.

And, insofar as the so-called Palestinian Declaration of Statehood in 1948 is concerned...

The Jews beat them to it by four months plus change...

They'd already staked-out their claim, the very day that the British Mandate ended...

In grammar school, we used to call that "Dibs"...

"Hey, dummy, Ronnie offered-up his lunch-cookie, and I already called 'dibs'. It's mine!"

The Israelis already had a great deal of land under their control in May 1948 when they declared Statehood...

They merely beat the so-called Palestinians to the punch, when they called 'dibs' first, in connection with the lands that they already owned and occupied.

The Palestinians simply did not have their shit together, and didn't even both trying to 'declare' until four months later...

And by then, they were trying to 'call dibs' on somebody else's piece of the cookie...

A day late, and a shekel short...

As usual...

How about posting a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory Israel staked out before the Palestinian declaration?

(COMMENT)

The Jewish Agency issued their Declaration of Independence, for the State of Israel, which "UNDER PART ONE B FOUR OF RESOLUTION OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON NOVEMBER 29TH 1947," meaning Resolution 181(II), outlined the Jewish State. The Resolution contained a Map No. 103.1 (b), Annex "A" to the Resolution.

And your typical (PNA Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate, and everything that has been based on them, are deemed null and void.) response will be that the Palestinians don't recognized A/RES/181(II) as implemented.

Then I will respond back with the Palestinian Declaration of Independence says: Despite the historical injustice done to the Palestinian Arab people in its displacement and in being deprived of the right to self-determination following the adoption of General Assembly resolution 181 (II) of 1947, which partitioned Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish State, that resolution nevertheless continues to attach conditions to international legitimacy that guarantee the Palestinian Arab people the right to sovereignty and national independence."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...The Jewish Agency issued their..."

True.

I have been concentrating upon the lands that they actually HELD at that time, and NOT what they claimed or 'staked-out', which was slightly different.

This satisfies our colleague Tinny's demand.

Good catch.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...In other words you don't have jack shit. Why don't you admit that you are blowing smoke out of your ass. Just post a 1948 map of Israel. It is no big thing."

Sigh... what is your major malfunction now, oh petulant, naive, delusional one?

What part of 'wherever the Jews controlled a portion of the old Mandate, there was Israel' do you not understand?

The borders of the Jewish State were ill-defined until the Armistice of 1949, at which time the Green Line borders were recognized by both Israel and the warring Arab powers, and then recognized de facto by the United Nations in its peacekeeping missions.

One can find plenty of maps of the territories controlled by the Jews on May 15, 1948 and in the fighting of the next several weeks, as the Arabs attacked the Jews.

Whatever in the world leads you to believe that any of that old shit has the slightest importance whatsoever to the Realities of Today?

Whatever deficiencies of definition which existed as of May 15, 1948 were remedied in the following weeks, and again, by Israeli force of arms, were reinforced further, in the following year, as the fighting ground to a halt and the Armistice Agreements went into effect.

Whatever rhetorical victory you think you achieve by harping on the precision (or lack thereof) in defining the land-mass claimed by Israel in the earliest going, is, in actuality, and in the Real World in which most of the rest of us live, a phyrric victory at best, and a complete failure to come to grips with the way the Real World works, at worst.

Nice song and dance.

What part of 'wherever the Jews controlled a portion of the old Mandate, there was Israel' do you not understand?

"Controlled" is a term defining occupation not possession. If Israel did not possess the land then the Palestinians had the right to declare their state inside their own international borders.

The "old mandate" did not have any territory.

and then recognized de facto by the United Nations in its peacekeeping missions.

If Israel had any land it would be defined by real borders. The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial boundaries.

And besides, the armistice lines were not defined until after Palestine's declaration of independence inside its international borders.

 

[Kondor3]

"...If Israel had any land it would be defined by real borders. The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial boundaries.

And besides, the armistice lines were not defined until after Palestine's declaration of independence inside its international borders."

My maps were intended to demonstrate the areas under Jewish control on May 15, 1948, the day they declared Indepencence.

Rocco's refocusing of our attention upon the Israeli claims to the maps of UN Resolution 181 are sufficient to the day and remedy any shortcomings in my own physical-holdings focus.

Consequently, the Jews staked-out a claim that did, indeed, have precise map references, on May 15, 1948, and which pre-dated those of the Palestinians four months later.

None of that other horseshit matters a damn.

Otherwise, the Palestinians would be the rulers of that land, and not its lost and fading past.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...If Israel had any land it would be defined by real borders. The armistice lines were specifically not to be political or territorial boundaries.

And besides, the armistice lines were not defined until after Palestine's declaration of independence inside its international borders."

My maps were intended to demonstrate the areas under Jewish control on May 15, 1948, the day they declared Indepencence.

Rocco's refocusing of our attention upon the Israeli claims to the maps of UN Resolution 181 are sufficient to the day and remedy any shortcomings in my own physical-holdings focus.

Consequently, the Jews staked-out a claim that did, indeed, have precise map references, on May 15, 1948, and which pre-dated those of the Palestinians four months later.

None of that other horseshit matters a damn.

Otherwise, the Palestinians would be the rulers of that land, and not its lost and fading past.

Consequently, the Jews staked-out a claim that did, indeed, have precise map references, on May 15, 1948, and which pre-dated those of the Palestinians four months later.

Got a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory staked out?

 

[Kondor3]

"...Got a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory staked out?"

No.

Any map of the 1947 UN Resolution 181 proposal will suffice.

Because that is the cited basis for the claim, as stipulated in the May 1948 Declaration.

Given that the Arabs started bombing on the night of Israeli Independence Day, I'm guesssing that the Jews were a little busy fighting for their lives, and did not get around to such luxuries as publishing maps for another year or two afterwards.

Do you really, in your wildest-assed hairy dreams, actually believe that the absence of a map in May 1948 with the name "Israel" written upon it, makes the slightest difference in the world to anyone not currently locked-up in an insane asylum?

It doesn't signify... it doesn't mean anything... it doesn't change anything... although, I'm sure, you could use that argument, if you had the means to build a time-machine and could warp back to 1948 and lay that in front of the UN Secretary General...

Do you have any idea how foolish that sounds - rather like saying that the lunch-box that Bobby has been carrying-around for the past year is actually yours, because you called dibs on it some months after Bobby did, but because you specified the dimensions of the lunch-box whereas Bobby did not?

Two words for that...

Puh-leeze...

Grow up, Tinny... and try to drag a few of your less-insane compatriots back into the light with you.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...Got a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory staked out?"

No.

Any map of the 1947 UN Resolution 181 proposal will suffice.

Because that is the cited basis for the claim, as stipulated in the May 1948 Declaration.

Given that the Arabs started bombing on the night of Israeli Independence Day, I'm guesssing that the Jews were a little busy fighting for their lives, and did not get around to such luxuries as publishing maps for another year or two afterwards.

Do you really, in your wildest-assed hairy dreams, actually believe that the absence of a map in May 1948 with the name "Israel" written upon it, makes the slightest difference in the world to anyone not currently locked-up in an insane asylum?

It doesn't signify... it doesn't mean anything... it doesn't change anything... although, I'm sure, you could use that argument, if you had the means to build a time-machine and could warp back to 1948 and lay that in front of the UN Secretary General...

Do you have any idea how foolish that sounds - rather like saying that the lunch-box that Bobby has been carrying-around for the past year is actually yours, because you called dibs on it some months after Bobby did, but because you specified the dimensions of the lunch-box whereas Bobby did not?

Two words for that...

Puh-leeze...

Grow up, Tinny... and try to drag a few of your less-insane compatriots back into the light with you.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3rFNbSKpEE]Picard song & dance - YouTube[/ame]

 

[RoccoR]

Kondor3, et al,

You are correct. I did not intend to contradict you.

"...The Jewish Agency issued their..."

True.

I have been concentrating upon the lands that they actually HELD at that time, and NOT what they claimed or 'staked-out', which was slightly different.

This satisfies our colleague Tinny's demand.

Good catch.

(COMMENT)

The Part II B Boundaries under Part I B were the starting point for the Jewish Agency acceptance, as implemented by the UN Commission on Palestine (UNCOP). The immediate opening of hostilities by the Palestinians and Arab League set the conditions which ultimately altered the boundaries to situation you outlined.

The Declaration (cited by P F Tinmore) by the Lebanese born and former Ottoman General Ahmed Hilmi (Pasha by Title) was not approved by the Arab League, and that particular Arab Higher Committee was disbanded by the Arab League (even outlawed in Jordan) and later reconstituted by the Arab League. Even the Arab League does not find that Declaration of Independence that was issued by GEN Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Retired) as legitimate; as it only represented the Gaza Strip via the Egyptian controlled All-Palestine Government.

Most Respectfully,
R