How can we be sure Judaism's holy sites will be safe?

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The UN would never say that.

It is NOT Palestine on both sides of the Armistice Line.

The UN armistice agreements say it is.

(COMMENT)

An Armistice Line is meaningless if the same side on on each side.

Get it together.

Most Respectfully,
R

I didn't say that.

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by...

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

In both instances Israel calls that territory Israel. The UN armistice agreements, that Israel signed, calls that territory Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What are you playing at?

P F Tinmore, et al,

Transfer...


(COMMENT)

The establishment of sovereignty is not a "real estate" deal. There is no transfer of property; not for any of the 9 Arab Countries Created by the Allied Powers/LoN/UN. What do you think they did, give King Abdullah a deed to the Hashemite Kingdom? No, it doesn't work that way.

Lose that term from your vocabulary. That is simply not a concept in play.

Most Respectfully,
R

You can have sovereignty over territory that is not yours?

Interesting legal concept.

Got a link?

(COMMENT)

I own a home. I have a deed. The property is mine; I own it. But it is the sovereign territory of the United States of America.

Sovereignty and property transfers (ownership) are two entirely different things.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, but the US is your country.

Canada is not yours.

It is just a point of reference.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

P F Tinmore, et al,

What are you playing at?

You can have sovereignty over territory that is not yours?

Interesting legal concept.

Got a link?

(COMMENT)

I own a home. I have a deed. The property is mine; I own it. But it is the sovereign territory of the United States of America.

Sovereignty and property transfers (ownership) are two entirely different things.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, but the US is your country.

Canada is not yours.

It is just a point of reference.

What has Canada got to do with it?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, well...

P F Tinmore, et al,

What are you playing at?

You can have sovereignty over territory that is not yours?

Interesting legal concept.

Got a link?

(COMMENT)

I own a home. I have a deed. The property is mine; I own it. But it is the sovereign territory of the United States of America.

Sovereignty and property transfers (ownership) are two entirely different things.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, but the US is your country.

Canada is not yours.

It is just a point of reference.

(COMMENT)

If the US and Canada had a land swap or made some kind of deal, and Canada got sovereignty over Ohio, it still would affect my property rights. I would just be a Canadian.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

The alternative view.

P F Tinmore, et al,

The UN would never say that.

The UN armistice agreements say it is.

(COMMENT)

An Armistice Line is meaningless if the same side on on each side.

Get it together.

Most Respectfully,
R

I didn't say that.

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by...

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

In both instances Israel calls that territory Israel. The UN armistice agreements, that Israel signed, calls that territory Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Again, understand what they are saying: "former mandated territory of Palestine"

Article II

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.

SOURCE: Treaty of Peace

The political bantering between the Arab League, doesn't change the fact that at the time, the State of Palestine did not exist in 1949. The Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) rejected that option afforded them under General Assembly Resolution 181(II). The Palestine of the Armistice Agreement was still the former mandated territory. That is why the Armistice was made between Egypt and Israel.

The purpose of the Armistice (as is with most agreements of this nature) was not to settle the territorial dispute, but to separate the belligerents. The Treaty settled the dispute between the two parties. Notice, the Palestinians were NOT a party to the agreement! WHY, because they did not have a case of sovereignty in dispute. They rejected the option of Statehood.

The representative designated by the Government of the United Kingdom was Sir Alexander Cadogan. The representative designated by the Jewish Agency for Palestine was Mr. Moshe Shertok. As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January:

“ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”​

No further communication has been addressed to or received from the Arab Higher Committee by the Commission. The Commission will, at the appropriate time, set forth in a separate document its views with regard to the implementations of this refusal by the Arab Higher Committee.

SOURCE: A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948

The HoAP did not want to participation in the implementation process, so they lost their voice as a party to the armistice and treaty.

Article 2
Use of terms

1. For the purposes of the present Convention:

(a) “treaty” means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation;​

Article 6

Capacity of States to conclude treaties: Every State possesses capacity to conclude treaties.​

SOURCE: Treaty Law

The HoAP didn't want to play, so they don't factor into the play. It was their call. Less than a month after the formal rejection, the HoAP chose to announce settlement of the dispute through other means:

Arab Higher Committee set forth the following conclusions of the Arab Higher Committee Delegation:

“a. The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

“b. The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power or group of powers to establish a Jewish State in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense by force.

c. It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said commission.

d. The United Nations or its commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

e. The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

f. The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

g. The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.​

“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child."​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/9 S/676 16 February 1948

They were NOT happy with the outcome. They were to try --- trial by combat --- twice more. They have yet to reach an outcome for which they are satisfied.

Some would describe The 1988 State of Palestine as Enemy Occupied Territory; with clearly stated hostile intentions.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, well...

P F Tinmore, et al,

What are you playing at?


(COMMENT)

I own a home. I have a deed. The property is mine; I own it. But it is the sovereign territory of the United States of America.

Sovereignty and property transfers (ownership) are two entirely different things.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK, but the US is your country.

Canada is not yours.

It is just a point of reference.

(COMMENT)

If the US and Canada had a land swap or made some kind of deal, and Canada got sovereignty over Ohio, it still would affect my property rights. I would just be a Canadian.

Most Respectfully,
R

That is correct, however, if it was a unilateral move by Canada at the point of a gun would you consider the move to be valid?

 

[editec]

How can we be sure Judaism's holy sites will be safe?

Move them to Forest Hills, Queens, NY.

 

[Kondor3]

How can we be sure Judaism's holy sites will be safe?

Move them to Forest Hills, Queens, NY.

Or, just move Islam's to Saudi Arabia, where they belong...

 

[Kondor3]

"...Got a 1948 map of Israel showing the territory staked out?"

No.

Any map of the 1947 UN Resolution 181 proposal will suffice.

Because that is the cited basis for the claim, as stipulated in the May 1948 Declaration.

Given that the Arabs started bombing on the night of Israeli Independence Day, I'm guesssing that the Jews were a little busy fighting for their lives, and did not get around to such luxuries as publishing maps for another year or two afterwards.

Do you really, in your wildest-assed hairy dreams, actually believe that the absence of a map in May 1948 with the name "Israel" written upon it, makes the slightest difference in the world to anyone not currently locked-up in an insane asylum?

It doesn't signify... it doesn't mean anything... it doesn't change anything... although, I'm sure, you could use that argument, if you had the means to build a time-machine and could warp back to 1948 and lay that in front of the UN Secretary General...

Do you have any idea how foolish that sounds - rather like saying that the lunch-box that Bobby has been carrying-around for the past year is actually yours, because you called dibs on it some months after Bobby did, but because you specified the dimensions of the lunch-box whereas Bobby did not?

Two words for that...

Puh-leeze...

Grow up, Tinny... and try to drag a few of your less-insane compatriots back into the light with you.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3rFNbSKpEE]Picard song & dance - YouTube[/ame]

That is not a song-and-dance, Tinny, that is a substantive answer; one that I and others have attempted to convey to you in more collegial terms, time and again.

A substantive answer which you you chose to ignore, because it does not fit your agenda and preconceived notions.

Labeling a substantive answer as a 'song and dance' does not automatically RENDER it thus.

Another Epic Fail, Tinny... but, you're not in it for the fun, or the points... you're in it for the propaganda broadcasting.

Were you a legitimate debater, I would say that you need a lot of work on what signifies (what actually means something) and what doesn't, in the Reality that you occasionally sortie into, when attempting to advance your Cause.

A lot of work.

But I'll save my breath, because that does not appear to apply to propagandists.

In any event, with respect to what actually signifies in the Real World, and what does not, in today's Reality...

You (and your Palestinian brethren) are delusional.

Clinically delusional.

It probably makes more sense for folks to simply talk around you rather than trying to talk with you.

Accompanied by occasional slap-downs when your Josef Goebbels propaganda song-and-dance produces something so outrageous that it cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

I am beginning to understand why Palestinians are considered 'mad dogs' who cannot be productively engaged in dialogue, by so many around the world, including, apparently, many of their nearby Muslim-Arab neighbors, who also want as little to do with them as may be practicable.

Yes, I am, indeed, beginning to understand...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Again, understand what they are saying: "former mandated territory of Palestine"

They use that term to foster a political agenda. The term is technically correct, however, it is totally irrelevant and the purpose of its use is to deceive.

It is only used to sell the political opinion that Palestine does not exist.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No.

Any map of the 1947 UN Resolution 181 proposal will suffice.

Because that is the cited basis for the claim, as stipulated in the May 1948 Declaration.

Given that the Arabs started bombing on the night of Israeli Independence Day, I'm guesssing that the Jews were a little busy fighting for their lives, and did not get around to such luxuries as publishing maps for another year or two afterwards.

Do you really, in your wildest-assed hairy dreams, actually believe that the absence of a map in May 1948 with the name "Israel" written upon it, makes the slightest difference in the world to anyone not currently locked-up in an insane asylum?

It doesn't signify... it doesn't mean anything... it doesn't change anything... although, I'm sure, you could use that argument, if you had the means to build a time-machine and could warp back to 1948 and lay that in front of the UN Secretary General...

Do you have any idea how foolish that sounds - rather like saying that the lunch-box that Bobby has been carrying-around for the past year is actually yours, because you called dibs on it some months after Bobby did, but because you specified the dimensions of the lunch-box whereas Bobby did not?

Two words for that...

Puh-leeze...

Grow up, Tinny... and try to drag a few of your less-insane compatriots back into the light with you.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3rFNbSKpEE]Picard song & dance - YouTube[/ame]

That is not a song-and-dance, Tinny, that is a substantive answer; one that I and others have attempted to convey to you in more collegial terms, time and again.

A substantive answer which you you chose to ignore, because it does not fit your agenda and preconceived notions.

Labeling a substantive answer as a 'song and dance' does not automatically RENDER it thus.

Another Epic Fail, Tinny... but, you're not in it for the fun, or the points... you're in it for the propaganda broadcasting.

Were you a legitimate debater, I would say that you need a lot of work on what signifies (what actually means something) and what doesn't, in the Reality that you occasionally sortie into, when attempting to advance your Cause.

A lot of work.

But I'll save my breath, because that does not appear to apply to propagandists.

In any event, with respect to what actually signifies in the Real World, and what does not, in today's Reality...

You (and your Palestinian brethren) are delusional.

Clinically delusional.

It probably makes more sense for folks to simply talk around you rather than trying to talk with you.

Accompanied by occasional slap-downs when your Josef Goebbels propaganda song-and-dance produces something so outrageous that it cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

I am beginning to understand why Palestinians are considered 'mad dogs' who cannot be productively engaged in dialogue, by so many around the world, including, apparently, many of their nearby Muslim-Arab neighbors, who also want as little to do with them as may be practicable.

Yes, I am, indeed, beginning to understand...

I ask for a 1948 map of Israel to back up your claim that Israel already staked out their territory before Palestine's declaration of independence..

Your response was slime and excuses.

That looks like a song and dance to me.

 

[toastman]

Picard song & dance - YouTube

That is not a song-and-dance, Tinny, that is a substantive answer; one that I and others have attempted to convey to you in more collegial terms, time and again.

A substantive answer which you you chose to ignore, because it does not fit your agenda and preconceived notions.

Labeling a substantive answer as a 'song and dance' does not automatically RENDER it thus.

Another Epic Fail, Tinny... but, you're not in it for the fun, or the points... you're in it for the propaganda broadcasting.

Were you a legitimate debater, I would say that you need a lot of work on what signifies (what actually means something) and what doesn't, in the Reality that you occasionally sortie into, when attempting to advance your Cause.

A lot of work.

But I'll save my breath, because that does not appear to apply to propagandists.

In any event, with respect to what actually signifies in the Real World, and what does not, in today's Reality...

You (and your Palestinian brethren) are delusional.

Clinically delusional.

It probably makes more sense for folks to simply talk around you rather than trying to talk with you.

Accompanied by occasional slap-downs when your Josef Goebbels propaganda song-and-dance produces something so outrageous that it cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

I am beginning to understand why Palestinians are considered 'mad dogs' who cannot be productively engaged in dialogue, by so many around the world, including, apparently, many of their nearby Muslim-Arab neighbors, who also want as little to do with them as may be practicable.

Yes, I am, indeed, beginning to understand...

I ask for a 1948 map of Israel to back up your claim that Israel already staked out their territory before Palestine's declaration of independence..

Your response was slime and excuses.

That looks like a song and dance to me.

'Palestine' didn't declare independence in 1948, they did so in 1988

Palestinian Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try to get your shit together before you start debating about issues you claim to know so much about.

Why don't YOU post a picture of Israel in 1948 ???

 

[Kondor3]

"...I ask for a 1948 map of Israel to back up your claim that Israel already staked out their territory before Palestine's declaration of independence.. Your response was slime and excuses. That looks like a song and dance to me."

Slime and excuses? Hardly.

Your colleagues have countered that a precision map of May 14, 1948, labeled Israel, does not exist, but that such is also not relevant as a counter-claim tactic, because of the way that the Israeli Declaration is worded (to link to UN 181), and any such counterpointing is continually ignored in your minds.

Your colleagues have countered that maps exist which show both territorial control on that date and the intended scope of UN Resolution 181 on which the Israeli Declaration was based, and that counterpoint is continually ignored as significant in your minds.

And then you (a) reject the maps, (b) play the parrot and repeat your demand for maps, then (c) babble-on about songs-and-dances, and slime, and excuses.

Nice try... but... no sale.

--------------------

Mad dogs and rattlesnakes.

 

[Kondor3]

I keep getting a deja vu feeling when I read your posts Tinmore. It is like you are saying the same things in every string on here. You repeat it, are shown you are mistaken, then bring the same thing up again somewhere else.

 

[toastman]

I keep getting a deja vu feeling when I read your posts Tinmore. It is like you are saying the same things in every string on here. You repeat it, are shown you are mistaken, then bring the same thing up again somewhere else.

Bingo ! He simply cannot admit he is wrong about something . It's called Palestinian Mentality

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

I keep getting a deja vu feeling when I read your posts Tinmore. It is like you are saying the same things in every string on here. You repeat it, are shown you are mistaken, then bring the same thing up again somewhere else.

Bingo ! He simply cannot admit he is wrong about something . It's called Palestinian Mentality

In other words never saying the right thing at the right time, always on a self-destruct mode, seeing black when things are white, etc.

 

[Coyote]

Thread closed due to trolling.