Honest discussion about Abortion. Be prepared for FACTS

[JoeB131]

Don't be a retard. Everybody knows that.

But we would have to if we declared fetuses to be the same as people.

 

[Robert W]

But we would have to if we declared fetuses to be the same as people.

Miscarriages are abortions, you tell this forum? A strange idea.

 

[JoeB131]

Miscarriages are abortions, you tell this forum? A strange idea.

Actually, the medical term for a miscarriage is "Spontaneous Abortion".

Early Pregnancy Loss (Spontaneous Abortion) - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[TemplarKormac]

But we would have to if we declared fetuses to be the same as people.

Never mind that we all recognize fetuses of other species of animals as members of that species. But human fetuses? "Ohhh nooo... that's horrrible!"

If we (you) had to recognize fetuses as human, your whole abortion premise would cease to exist.

 

[JoeB131]

Never mind that we all recognize fetuses of other species of animals as members of that species. But human fetuses? "Ohhh nooo... that's horrrible!"

If we (you) had to recognize fetuses as human, your whole abortion premise would cease to exist.

Actually, if we recognized fetuses as people, that would create a host of legal problems.

For instance, every miscarriage would have to be investigated as a potential homicide. Did the woman do something to cause the miscarriage simply by working and living her life?

Women could be charged with assault for smoking, drinking, or even eating the wrong kinds of food when preggers, because the "human" inside of her would have more rights than she did.

 

[Robert W]

Actually, the medical term for a miscarriage is "Spontaneous Abortion".

Early Pregnancy Loss (Spontaneous Abortion) - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Miscarriage​

A miscarriage is the spontaneous loss of a fetus before the 20th week of pregnancy. Pregnancy losses after the 20th week are called stillbirths. Miscarriage is a naturally occurring event, unlike medicine abortions or abortion procedures.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Actually, if we recognized fetuses as people, that would create a host of legal problems.

For instance, every miscarriage would have to be investigated as a potential homicide. Did the woman do something to cause the miscarriage simply by working and living her life?

Women could be charged with assault for smoking, drinking, or even eating the wrong kinds of food when preggers, because the "human" inside of her would have more rights than she did.

Well, unfortunately you made the first 9 months.

When does human development begin?

 

[JoeB131]

Well, unfortunately you made the first 9 months.

When does human development begin?

Legally, when the doctor cuts the umbilical cord.

No, I don't think that's right, but as a practical matter, outlawing abortion would be impossible.

If the anti-Choice types are serious, they need to change the culture, not the law.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Women have been charged and convicted for harming a fetus.​

Criminal Charges for Child Harm from Substance Use in Pregnancy​

We identified 24 judicial opinions published between 1977 and 2015 in cases involving 29 women prosecuted in 19 states. Charges included child endangerment, child abuse, drug delivery, attempted aggravated child abuse, chemical endangerment of a child, child neglect, child mistreatment, homicide, manslaughter, and reckless injury to a child. The substances related to the charges included cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, marijuana, and prescription pills.

Criminal Charges for Child Harm from Substance Use in Pregnancy

Despite the opposition of medical and public health professionals, several state legislatures are considering laws that permit child abuse charges for substance use during pregnancy. We reviewed legal decisions regarding women charged with a crime against a fetus or child as a result of...

jaapl.org

 

[JoeB131]

Women have been charged and convicted for harming a fetus.​

Criminal Charges for Child Harm from Substance Use in Pregnancy​

We identified 24 judicial opinions published between 1977 and 2015 in cases involving 29 women prosecuted in 19 states. Charges included child endangerment, child abuse, drug delivery, attempted aggravated child abuse, chemical endangerment of a child, child neglect, child mistreatment, homicide, manslaughter, and reckless injury to a child. The substances related to the charges included cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, marijuana, and prescription pills.

Criminal Charges for Child Harm from Substance Use in Pregnancy

Despite the opposition of medical and public health professionals, several state legislatures are considering laws that permit child abuse charges for substance use during pregnancy. We reviewed legal decisions regarding women charged with a crime against a fetus or child as a result of...

jaapl.org

Those are substances that are already illegal to use.

I'm talking about prosecuting women for using legal (but ill-advised) substances, which would totally happen once you'd decided Globby the Fetus has more rights than the woman it's inside.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Legally, when the doctor cuts the umbilical cord.

No, I don't think that's right, but as a practical matter, outlawing abortion would be impossible.

If the anti-Choice types are serious, they need to change the culture, not the law.

So there was no development before the umbilical cord was cut

Basic biology is not on your radar, is it!!

 

[Robert W]

If the anti-Choice types are serious, they need to change the culture, not the law.

The pro-abortion group won't go along with that either.

 

[JoeB131]

So there was no development before the umbilical cord was cut

Basic biology is not on your radar, is it!!

You did see the point where I said "Legally", right.

LEGALLY, you can abort a fetus in the eighth month if it is sufficiently deformed.

If you perform a mercy killing after the cord is cut, it's classified as murder.

 

[Captain Caveman]

You did see the point where I said "Legally", right.

LEGALLY, you can abort a fetus in the eighth month if it is sufficiently deformed.

If you perform a mercy killing after the cord is cut, it's classified as murder.

Law doesn't include common sense and facts.

 

[Seth]

Planned parenthood loves doing abortions. They have "cute names" for the child, the place they incinerate them and watch the video for the truth from a former planned parenthood worker who is very experienced.
Would you save the child were it yours?

Quick fact-check on the OP & Abby Johnson video

• “Planned Parenthood loves doing abortions / clinics have quotas.”
  Abortions are a minority of PP’s work. Roughly 3–4 % of all services (≈ 10 million total) are abortions. Even counting revenue, abortions are under 15 %. No state or federal probe has ever produced evidence of formal “abortion quotas”; PP and multiple investigations deny it. factcheck.orgcapradio.org
  
  
• “They use ‘cute names’ for the fetus and the incinerator.”
  Staff use standard medical terms like POC (“products of conception”) and “tissue room.” Handling of fetal tissue is governed by state medical-waste rules; most hospitals and clinics contract licensed firms that sterilize or incinerate remains off-site—same process, different label. There’s no evidence of employees celebrating the practice. news5cleveland.com
  
  
• “PP burns babies for profit / illegal fetal-tissue trade.”
  Fifteen state and multiple congressional investigations (2015-18) reviewed the “selling baby parts” allegations and found no wrongdoing or profit-making scheme. plannedparenthood.orgen.wikipedia.org
  
  
• “Late-term or ‘born-alive’ abortions are common.”
  CDC data show < 1 % of U.S. abortions occur at ≥ 21 weeks; almost all are for serious fetal or maternal complications. Infanticide is illegal in every state, and the 2002 Born-Alive Infants Protection Act already guarantees care for any live birth. High-profile “born-alive” bills add redundant penalties rather than fill a legal gap. cdc.govpolitifact.compolitifact.com

---

Bottom line: Abby Johnson’s story is compelling, but many of the claims repeated in the thread—clinic “quotas,” widespread late-term or post-birth killings, and profiteering from fetal tissue—have been investigated exhaustively and lack supporting evidence. Planned Parenthood’s core services remain contraception, STI testing, and cancer screening; abortion is a small, though politically charged, slice of what they do.

 

[JoeB131]

Law doesn't include common sense and facts.

Or maybe it does.

Frankly, it seems cruel to me to bring a child into the world knowing it is only going to live a few hours due to some deformity like Brittle Bone Disease or Spina-Bifida.

 

[Robert W]

Or maybe it does.

Frankly, it seems cruel to me to bring a child into the world knowing it is only going to live a few hours due to some deformity like Brittle Bone Disease or Spina-Bifida.

It is not cruel at all to save healthy developing humans.
Unless you want to revert to the Nazi regime.

 

[JoeB131]

It is not cruel at all to save healthy developing humans.
Unless you want to revert to the Nazi regime.

Except these fetuses aren't healthy.

Here's the thing. I have nothing but contempt for women who are aborting healthy fetuses because they didn't use contraception and they had sex with a man who they knew wasn't father material.

But outlawing abortion would be impractical.

Just like I might have contempt for someone who gets falling-down drunk, but bringing back prohibition is impractical.

You want fewer abortions, there's a way to get there.

Universal Healthcare
Paid Family Leave
Comprehensive sex education
Readily available contraception.

 

[Chuz Life]

My view on abortion would make no one happy, but here goes.

1) Roe vs. Wade was a crap decision that found a right to privacy that isn't in the constitution without defining when life begins.

2) Both sides use emotional language about late term abortions and rape and incest, but the vast majority of abortions performed are in the first trimester because women willingly had sex with men who aren't good father material.

3) All that said, outlawing abortion would be impractical for the same reason Prohibition was impractical. If people are determined to engage in personal behavior, there isn't much the government is going to be able to do about it.

4) IF we want to reduce the number of abortions, we need to change the culture, not the law.

As if changes to our laws never coincides with changes in our culture.

 

[JoeB131]

As if changes to our laws never coincides with changes in our culture.

Actually, it usually does. For instance, Gay Marriage didn't happen until a slim majority was cool with it. Today, that number is at 70% or higher, and no one cares about gay marriage except the religious nutters.

The country was ready for legal abortion in 1973. The State Legislatures just weren't ready to follow.