Homosexuality: Some natural and some unnatural?

[Quantum Windbag]

People do not choose their sexuality, and homosexuality cannot be cured, no matter what the people from NARTH claim.

What actual, scientific, evidence do you have for that position? Is it actually based on the same bigotry you claim to despise?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

People do not choose their sexuality, and homosexuality cannot be cured, no matter what the people from NARTH claim.

People do not choose their sex. They do choose what they intend to do with it or not do with it.

Disregard the thanks I have you. I'm on my phone and can't undo it. People do not choose their sexuality, so please, stop claiming such a thing as if you possess any kind of truth regarding this matter. What happened was, you read a " book, became convinced it was true, and molded your reality around it. Just remember, this is your reality, not the reality of the rest of the natural world.

Sounds to me like you are telling him what you did.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We don't know for sure what causes sexuality. So... we can't really form a valid opinion on the matter yet.

However, I can tell you that sexuality is not a conscious decision, and that homosexual behavior does occur among many different species of animals.

Now whether or not it's hormonal, genetic, or whatever is still unclear.

Can I point out a small flaw in your argument? If we don't know what it is, we also cannot say what it is not.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Homosexual behavior has been documented in several thousand species of animals. I think it's safe to say it's a natural phenomenon.

so is a 2 headed snake or a 5 legged goat. it is a genetic mutation that is a weakness not a condition that insures the survival of the species . some people are born with no legs ..it is sometimes caused naturally but on average is very rare or the human race would not survive as a whole .i am not saying that these people are not deserving of all the rights that everybody else does but it is not something that is desirable on a large scale .homosexuality is a mental disorder and if all humans suffered from it the human race would go extinct.

First off, we don't know if it's genetic or not. Second off, the APA disregarded homosexuality as being a mental disorder in the 1970s. Homosexuality does not hinder one's perception of reality (or humanity's definition of reality). Therefore, it is not a mental disorder.

We actually do know it is not genetic.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think 99%of the time it's the way the person was born. Occasionally when a person goes to extremes and starts having surgery for a sex change, I wonder if it's not more mental illness related. Kinda like those people who have plastic surgery after plastic surgery because they will never be happy with the way they look. There is a deeper underlying cause to unhappiness.

History tells us otherwise.

In ancient Greece and Sparta it was culturally accpeted and widely practiced......unless you think there to be a rampant "gay gene" amongst these races.

Widely practiced?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It occurs in nature, therefore it must be natural. However, it is a deviant behavior which is naturally limited by the inability to reproduce.

I'm not sure I'd call it deviant.

I don't know how something can be natural yet deviant at the same time.

My guess that is because you do not understand what deviant actually means, which is departing from the norm. The norm is for people to have brown eyes, that makes me deviant because my eyes are not brown, yet it does not make my eye color unnatural.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Not nearly as dramatic as animals who eat their young.

Which is very natural by the way. It just isn't normal.

Explain how something that is natural to an animal isn't also normal.

The argument I heard was that homosexuality happens among animals therefore it's perfectly natural for man. I of course disagree. Filicide, cannibalism and incest are also found among animals, does that mean it's natural for man to act on these instincts?

There are a lot of things that animals do that is instinctively natural and I'd argue for them it's normal behavior.

Because, despite your lack of education, natural does not mean normal.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It occurs in nature, therefore it must be natural. However, it is a deviant behavior which is naturally limited by the inability to reproduce.

In spite of this "natural limitation" on reproduction homosexuality has been been around for millennia. So far from being a "deviant behavior" it must have some natural purpose in order for the trait to survive. Having males that are not competing for females but still capable of defending the tribe would be a positive evolutionary trait. Having females that did not get pregnant but were able to assist with child rearing and food gathering would be a positive evolutionary trait.

The only "deviant behavior" occurs amongst those who are intolerant and discriminate against those who don't share the same sexual orientation.

What the fruck is wrong with people, has no one ever taught them what a dictionary is?

 

[Gadawg73]

People do not choose their sexuality, and homosexuality cannot be cured, no matter what the people from NARTH claim.

What actual, scientific, evidence do you have for that position? Is it actually based on the same bigotry you claim to despise?

Tell us about how you chose your sexuality?
How long did you contemplate schlong?
How long did you contemplate vagina?
What were your thoughts on each and after you thought of all of your choices how long did it take you to choose your sexual orientation?

Or are you normal and were born with your sexual orientation?

If you did choose PROVE IT.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Which is very natural by the way. It just isn't normal.

Explain how something that is natural to an animal isn't also normal.

The argument I heard was that homosexuality happens among animals therefore it's perfectly natural for man. I of course disagree. Filicide, cannibalism and incest are also found among animals, does that mean it's natural for man to act on these instincts?

There are a lot of things that animals do that is instinctively natural and I'd argue for them it's normal behavior.

Because, despite your lack of education, natural does not mean normal.

That the best you can do?

Just say that what happens in natural isn't normal and think you're right.

Sorry but you are a fool to think that what is natural behavior in the animal kingdom isn't normal for them.

Stop applying human logic to the animal world.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

People do not choose their sexuality, and homosexuality cannot be cured, no matter what the people from NARTH claim.

What actual, scientific, evidence do you have for that position? Is it actually based on the same bigotry you claim to despise?

Tell us about how you chose your sexuality?
How long did you contemplate schlong?
How long did you contemplate vagina?
What were your thoughts on each and after you thought of all of your choices how long did it take you to choose your sexual orientation?

Or are you normal and were born with your sexual orientation?

If you did choose PROVE IT.

Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality Is Genetic

 

[Gadawg73]

What actual, scientific, evidence do you have for that position? Is it actually based on the same bigotry you claim to despise?

Tell us about how you chose your sexuality?
How long did you contemplate schlong?
How long did you contemplate vagina?
What were your thoughts on each and after you thought of all of your choices how long did it take you to choose your sexual orientation?

Or are you normal and were born with your sexual orientation?

If you did choose PROVE IT.

Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality Is Genetic

Never said it was genetic.
Tell us about how it went when you made your choice.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Tell us about how you chose your sexuality?
How long did you contemplate schlong?
How long did you contemplate vagina?
What were your thoughts on each and after you thought of all of your choices how long did it take you to choose your sexual orientation?

Or are you normal and were born with your sexual orientation?

If you did choose PROVE IT.

Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality Is Genetic

Never said it was genetic.
Tell us about how it went when you made your choice.

Yes you basically said that gays are born that way.

Which would make it genetic.

Shall I define "genetics" for you?

The branch of biology that deals with heredity, especially the mechanisms of hereditary transmission and the variation of inherited characteristics among similar or related organisms.

And once again science does not support that claim.

When did you choose to be gay?

 

[Gadawg73]

Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality Is Genetic

Never said it was genetic.
Tell us about how it went when you made your choice.

Yes you basically said that gays are born that way.

Which would make it genetic.

Shall I define "genetics" for you?

The branch of biology that deals with heredity, especially the mechanisms of hereditary transmission and the variation of inherited characteristics among similar or related organisms.

And once again science does not support that claim.

When did you choose to be gay?

No I didn't. I said that I am interested in your choice argument.
And you run from that like a monkey on fire.
Tell us YOUR EXPERIENCES ON HOW YOU CHOSE YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

But of course you can't as that never happened. Otherwise you would and you haven't.
Show me JUST ONE example of someone that chooses to be gay or straight.
JUST ONE.
I am not gay as I was born straight with 3 kids and a wife of 36 years.
I never chose.
Choice means OPTIONS as in you CHOOSE from those options.
Tell us how you chose to be straight.
You know you were born that way. Why the constant BS?
Because your religious beliefs taught you there is something wrong with gay folk.
Just go ahead and admit it. You never pondered your sexual choices and chose.
That is an absurd argument and you know it but your religious ideology forces you to go with it.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Never said it was genetic.
Tell us about how it went when you made your choice.

Yes you basically said that gays are born that way.

Which would make it genetic.

Shall I define "genetics" for you?

The branch of biology that deals with heredity, especially the mechanisms of hereditary transmission and the variation of inherited characteristics among similar or related organisms.

And once again science does not support that claim.

When did you choose to be gay?

No I didn't. I said that I am interested in your choice argument.
And you run from that like a monkey on fire.
Tell us YOUR EXPERIENCES ON HOW YOU CHOSE YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

But of course you can't as that never happened. Otherwise you would and you haven't.
Show me JUST ONE example of someone that chooses to be gay or straight.
JUST ONE.
I am not gay as I was born straight with 3 kids and a wife of 36 years.
I never chose.
Choice means OPTIONS as in you CHOOSE from those options.
Tell us how you chose to be straight.
You know you were born that way. Why the constant BS?
Because your religious beliefs taught you there is something wrong with gay folk.
Just go ahead and admit it. You never pondered your sexual choices and chose.
That is an absurd argument and you know it but your religious ideology forces you to go with it.

You didn't imply that people are born gay?

Yes, you did you moron!! And you reaffirmed it in the above post!

Well you shown yourself to be a liar.

And I doubt you were born straight with 3 kids and a wife.

Are pedophiles born that way? How about murders? Polygamist?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

People do not choose their sexuality, and homosexuality cannot be cured, no matter what the people from NARTH claim.

What actual, scientific, evidence do you have for that position? Is it actually based on the same bigotry you claim to despise?

Tell us about how you chose your sexuality?
How long did you contemplate schlong?
How long did you contemplate vagina?
What were your thoughts on each and after you thought of all of your choices how long did it take you to choose your sexual orientation?

Or are you normal and were born with your sexual orientation?

If you did choose PROVE IT.

Funny, I don't recall saying it is a choice. I do recall mentioning, more than once, that I believe it is a choice. The reason I believe this is that, despite all your challenges to me every single time I mention this belief, no one has ever presented any evidence that it is not a choice.

On the other hand, there is irrefutable evidence that it is not genetic in the form of multiple studies monozygotic twins where one of the twins is homosexual and the other is not. Until you provide some evidence that my belief is wrong I am going to stick with it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Explain how something that is natural to an animal isn't also normal.

The argument I heard was that homosexuality happens among animals therefore it's perfectly natural for man. I of course disagree. Filicide, cannibalism and incest are also found among animals, does that mean it's natural for man to act on these instincts?

There are a lot of things that animals do that is instinctively natural and I'd argue for them it's normal behavior.

Because, despite your lack of education, natural does not mean normal.

That the best you can do?

Just say that what happens in natural isn't normal and think you're right.

Sorry but you are a fool to think that what is natural behavior in the animal kingdom isn't normal for them.

Stop applying human logic to the animal world.

I did not say that.

For the record, normal and deviance are statistical terms, natural is not. Statistics are applied to the natural world, but they are not natural because they were invented by man. It is entirely possible for something to be normal yet unnatural, for example, it is normal for houses to have multiple cell phones, it is not natural. Alternatively, it is also possible for something to be not normal, aka deviant, yet still natural, like blue eyes.

 

[Gadawg73]

Yes you basically said that gays are born that way.

Which would make it genetic.

Shall I define "genetics" for you?



And once again science does not support that claim.

When did you choose to be gay?

No I didn't. I said that I am interested in your choice argument.
And you run from that like a monkey on fire.
Tell us YOUR EXPERIENCES ON HOW YOU CHOSE YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

But of course you can't as that never happened. Otherwise you would and you haven't.
Show me JUST ONE example of someone that chooses to be gay or straight.
JUST ONE.
I am not gay as I was born straight with 3 kids and a wife of 36 years.
I never chose.
Choice means OPTIONS as in you CHOOSE from those options.
Tell us how you chose to be straight.
You know you were born that way. Why the constant BS?
Because your religious beliefs taught you there is something wrong with gay folk.
Just go ahead and admit it. You never pondered your sexual choices and chose.
That is an absurd argument and you know it but your religious ideology forces you to go with it.

You didn't imply that people are born gay?

Yes, you did you moron!! And you reaffirmed it in the above post!

Well you shown yourself to be a liar.

And I doubt you were born straight with 3 kids and a wife.

Are pedophiles born that way? How about murders? Polygamist?

All you ever have Lonestar is name calling like a 5 year old.
You have to call names like a 5 year old because you have no other argument to back up any of your claims.
You claimed it was a choice to be gay and offer no evidence whatsoever that you chose to be straight.
And when your arguments are dissected and destroyed you call others names.
Then you move the goal posts because you know you never weighed other choices and then chose one.
Under your theory you had numerous choices and chose to be straight.
How long did you contemplate the choice schlong Lonestar?
How long did you contemplate the choice *****?
You know you were attracted to women FROM BIRTH.
If not please tell us how you came to the conclusion to choose being straight.
But you can't as all you ever have is 5 year old name calling.
Otherwise you would back up your claims.
Most folks are attracted to the opposite sex. That is normal to me and is normal.
But just because something is not normal that does not make it a choice.
People are born with all kinds of things that are not normal that do not bother me.
No one born attracted to women all of a sudden one day says "Hmmmmm, I do not like men but I am choosing to be gay"
You do not believe that shit. Get real and quit the BS.
Real world. I have been beat up, shot at, left for dead, played 4 quarters against some of the best around. Your BS does not work with me.
I live and have lived in the real world for 58 years.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Because, despite your lack of education, natural does not mean normal.

That the best you can do?

Just say that what happens in natural isn't normal and think you're right.

Sorry but you are a fool to think that what is natural behavior in the animal kingdom isn't normal for them.

Stop applying human logic to the animal world.

I did not say that.

For the record, normal and deviance are statistical terms, natural is not. Statistics are applied to the natural world, but they are not natural because they were invented by man. It is entirely possible for something to be normal yet unnatural, for example, it is normal for houses to have multiple cell phones, it is not natural. Alternatively, it is also possible for something to be not normal, aka deviant, yet still natural, like blue eyes.

Your analogy is rather lame.

Again your defining what is normal in the human scheme of things.

Who said having multiple phones in a house isn't natural?

You?

Are you the authority on what is normal or natural?

In the animal kingdom there is no deviance from what is instinctively natural (normal) behavior.

Show some examples of deviant behavior in the animal world.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

No I didn't. I said that I am interested in your choice argument.
And you run from that like a monkey on fire.
Tell us YOUR EXPERIENCES ON HOW YOU CHOSE YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

But of course you can't as that never happened. Otherwise you would and you haven't.
Show me JUST ONE example of someone that chooses to be gay or straight.
JUST ONE.
I am not gay as I was born straight with 3 kids and a wife of 36 years.
I never chose.
Choice means OPTIONS as in you CHOOSE from those options.
Tell us how you chose to be straight.
You know you were born that way. Why the constant BS?
Because your religious beliefs taught you there is something wrong with gay folk.
Just go ahead and admit it. You never pondered your sexual choices and chose.
That is an absurd argument and you know it but your religious ideology forces you to go with it.

You didn't imply that people are born gay?

Yes, you did you moron!! And you reaffirmed it in the above post!

Well you shown yourself to be a liar.

And I doubt you were born straight with 3 kids and a wife.

Are pedophiles born that way? How about murders? Polygamist?

All you ever have Lonestar is name calling like a 5 year old.
You have to call names like a 5 year old because you have no other argument to back up any of your claims.
You claimed it was a choice to be gay and offer no evidence whatsoever that you chose to be straight.
And when your arguments are dissected and destroyed you call others names.
Then you move the goal posts because you know you never weighed other choices and then chose one.
Under your theory you had numerous choices and chose to be straight.
How long did you contemplate the choice schlong Lonestar?
How long did you contemplate the choice *****?
You know you were attracted to women FROM BIRTH.
If not please tell us how you came to the conclusion to choose being straight.
But you can't as all you ever have is 5 year old name calling.
Otherwise you would back up your claims.
Most folks are attracted to the opposite sex. That is normal to me and is normal.
But just because something is not normal that does not make it a choice.
People are born with all kinds of things that are not normal that do not bother me.
No one born attracted to women all of a sudden one day says "Hmmmmm, I do not like men but I am choosing to be gay"
You do not believe that shit. Get real and quit the BS.
Real world. I have been beat up, shot at, left for dead, played 4 quarters against some of the best around. Your BS does not work with me.
I live and have lived in the real world for 58 years.

I said a lot more than just call you a moron and I usually do follow up my name-calling with good arguments. As I have done in this case with the questions posed.

Why do you insist on making this about me?

We're discussing whether or not being gay is genetic. You claim it is. Yet you have no evidence to support your claim. As a matter of fact no evidence exists that supports that claim, yet you hold on to that argument.

Try coming up with supporting evidence then you may have a shot at winning this debate.

People are indeed born with all types of tendencies whether it's violence, addiction, homosexuality etc... they choose whether or not to act on those tendencies.