Home-Grown Terror

[Diuretic]

You stance on this is ignorant. Lets hope YOUR police are not as stupid as you seem to want them to be when it comes to terrorism.

" they plan to blow up buildings?" "But they only PLANNED it, they haven't actually gotten the explosives yet, just a prank ya know, just a silly College prank." " get back to me when the buildings go boom, then we will know who to arrest after all."

Tell you what, after they get convicted come back and crow. There's nothing wrong with charging people with an inchoate crime as long as the evidence is there. So, let's see if it's there.

As for our police, well, the poor old AFP didn't exactly cover themselves in glory over the Haneef matter, in fact it was a huge cock-up and they deserve to feel really embarrassed about it. Even the two coppers who interviewed Haneef appeared to have little idea of what they were doing. I fairly cringed when I read the interview. And ignorant? I've got years in the job, I've got a fair idea as to how Haneef should have been handled.

But this is what happens when a compliant Commissioner seeks to do the bidding of his political masters. Anyway that's a side issue.

As for the alleged terrorists in this one, as I said, feel free to come back and crow - you know you won't be able to resist - when they get convicted.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Tell you what, after they get convicted come back and crow. There's nothing wrong with charging people with an inchoate crime as long as the evidence is there. So, let's see if it's there.

As for our police, well, the poor old AFP didn't exactly cover themselves in glory over the Haneef matter, in fact it was a huge cock-up and they deserve to feel really embarrassed about it. Even the two coppers who interviewed Haneef appeared to have little idea of what they were doing. I fairly cringed when I read the interview. And ignorant? I've got years in the job, I've got a fair idea as to how Haneef should have been handled.

But this is what happens when a compliant Commissioner seeks to do the bidding of his political masters. Anyway that's a side issue.

As for the alleged terrorists in this one, as I said, feel free to come back and crow - you know you won't be able to resist - when they get convicted.

And again if the 19 Hijackers on September 11 had been arrested on September 10 we would have people like you claiming it was all made up. No threat here. Fear mongering at it's finest is how you would put it.

Same with the terrorists that blew up shit in England in the Subways, arrested the day before they built the bombs, why they were just misunderstood is all.

 

[Diuretic]

And again if the 19 Hijackers on September 11 had been arrested on September 10 we would have people like you claiming it was all made up. No threat here. Fear mongering at it's finest is how you would put it.

Same with the terrorists that blew up shit in England in the Subways, arrested the day before they built the bombs, why they were just misunderstood is all.

Speaking for myself I wouldn't jump to a premature conclusion, I'd wait and look at the evidence. If the hijackers were arrested the day before I'm sure there would have been ample evidence of their intentions. It's damn shame they weren't. But of course that's irrelevant to the discussion here. The discussion is querying the strength of the case. Are these people fantasists or are they real terrorists? And in frightened America will they get a fair trial? Those are the questions of substance, not hypothetical scenarios.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Speaking for myself I wouldn't jump to a premature conclusion, I'd wait and look at the evidence. If the hijackers were arrested the day before I'm sure there would have been ample evidence of their intentions. It's damn shame they weren't. But of course that's irrelevant to the discussion here. The discussion is querying the strength of the case. Are these people fantasists or are they real terrorists? And in frightened America will they get a fair trial? Those are the questions of substance, not hypothetical scenarios.

Once again for the slow, America is not "frightened". That is YOUR claim and you have no evidence.

Claiming that arresting people because they plan to blow up buildings while accepting money from known terror organizations to do JUST that is fear mongering is rich.

You did read the actual information on the people in Florida right? You are not just parroting the liberal line that can not credit this administration with any success at anything because then the liberals will look the fools they are?

 

[Diuretic]

Once again for the slow, America is not "frightened". That is YOUR claim and you have no evidence.

Claiming that arresting people because they plan to blow up buildings while accepting money from known terror organizations to do JUST that is fear mongering is rich.

You did read the actual information on the people in Florida right? You are not just parroting the liberal line that can not credit this administration with any success at anything because then the liberals will look the fools they are?

Of course I read it. And as I said, in frightened America what are the chances of a fair trial? Are juries going to be more amenable in an environment of fear of terrorism?

You see it's a little paradoxical but where someone is charged with a substantive offence all that has to be proven is that the defendant(s) did it. Pretty straightforward. But in an in inchoate crime it's a bit different. Incitement, conspiracy, attempts - they're useful because they allow law enforcement to intervene before a substantive offence is committed (which means no victims which is good) but sometimes the evidence is a bit thin. That isn't to say you can't get a conviction of course but - I can't speak for the US - in Australian courts juries are cautioned by the judge that the evidence in a trial for an inchoate offence must be strong and unambiguous as no substantive offence has been committed and someone is looking at prison for something other than a substantive offence. Having said that, law enforcement mustn't be discouraged from intervening before the offence has been committed because that defeats the purpose all round.

So, you see my point about "frightened America" wasn't simply a calumny. I'm wondering if a jury would be more likely to convict on flimsy evidence in an atmosphere of heightened awareness (fear) of terrorism.

Anyway, as I said, come back and have a good old triumphalist blast when they're convicted.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Of course I read it. And as I said, in frightened America what are the chances of a fair trial? Are juries going to be more amenable in an environment of fear of terrorism?

You see it's a little paradoxical but where someone is charged with a substantive offence all that has to be proven is that the defendant(s) did it. Pretty straightforward. But in an in inchoate crime it's a bit different. Incitement, conspiracy, attempts - they're useful because they allow law enforcement to intervene before a substantive offence is committed (which means no victims which is good) but sometimes the evidence is a bit thin. That isn't to say you can't get a conviction of course but - I can't speak for the US - in Australian courts juries are cautioned by the judge that the evidence in a trial for an inchoate offence must be strong and unambiguous as no substantive offence has been committed and someone is looking at prison for something other than a substantive offence. Having said that, law enforcement mustn't be discouraged from intervening before the offence has been committed because that defeats the purpose all round.

So, you see my point about "frightened America" wasn't simply a calumny. I'm wondering if a jury would be more likely to convict on flimsy evidence in an atmosphere of heightened awareness (fear) of terrorism.

Anyway, as I said, come back and have a good old triumphalist blast when they're convicted.

And again we are not living in a "frightened " America. You are aware that one of the 7 have already been found NOT GUILTY? So much for you're whole " they can not get a fair trial" garbage.

These guys were taped trying to make contact with what THEY thought was AL Queda. They ask for MONEY and gear and offered a plan to blow up buildings to justify their request. The whole, innocent college prank is getting tired indeed. These men had a plan and were actively seeking the means to carry OUT that plan. Hardly the innocent thrill seekers that the left would try to convince us they are.

Will they get convicted? I do not know, I hope so, they deserve to go to jail. Your whole "they haven't a chance" in fearful America is ignorant on the face of it. You simply do not know what your talking about.

This "fearful" country has upheld Constitutional rights for every terrorist every charged in an American Court. Turning down efforts by the Government to take away those rights. Even Terrorists not IN the Country have had the right to lawyers and trials upheld AGAINST the wishes of the Government.

I am so tired of ignorant claims that we have lost rights and are afraid of our shadows. You do not know what the hell you are talking about. Tell ya what MATE, you worry about YOUR Country and we will worry about OURS , ehh?

Go ahead and be so brave you would rather the police not arrest terrorists till they blow up buildings , cause hey you never know, maybe they really are just making it all up.

 

[Diuretic]

And again we are not living in a "frightened " America. You are aware that one of the 7 have already been found NOT GUILTY? So much for you're whole " they can not get a fair trial" garbage.

These guys were taped trying to make contact with what THEY thought was AL Queda. They ask for MONEY and gear and offered a plan to blow up buildings to justify their request. The whole, innocent college prank is getting tired indeed. These men had a plan and were actively seeking the means to carry OUT that plan. Hardly the innocent thrill seekers that the left would try to convince us they are.

Will they get convicted? I do not know, I hope so, they deserve to go to jail. Your whole "they haven't a chance" in fearful America is ignorant on the face of it. You simply do not know what your talking about.

This "fearful" country has upheld Constitutional rights for every terrorist every charged in an American Court. Turning down efforts by the Government to take away those rights. Even Terrorists not IN the Country have had the right to lawyers and trials upheld AGAINST the wishes of the Government.

I am so tired of ignorant claims that we have lost rights and are afraid of our shadows. You do not know what the hell you are talking about. Tell ya what MATE, you worry about YOUR Country and we will worry about OURS , ehh?

Go ahead and be so brave you would rather the police not arrest terrorists till they blow up buildings , cause hey you never know, maybe they really are just making it all up.

Feel better?

Try this - Patriot Act<------ how's that for evidence of frightened America?

And you do know that we have a lot of ways of saying "mate" don't you? There's "mate!" and then there's "maaaaate!" and even "matey!" There are subtle differences in each one. But I've noticed a lot of Australians are saying, "buddy". Why do you think that is? Yes, go to the top of the class, American cultural imperialism! Well guess what, I'm here to give you a burst of Australian cultural imperialism. Get used to it....mate.


btw if you're in Sydney and some bastard makes all matey and does a "maaaaaate!" on you, check your wallet

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Feel better?

Try this - Patriot Act<------ how's that for evidence of frightened America?

And you do know that we have a lot of ways of saying "mate" don't you? There's "mate!" and then there's "maaaaate!" and even "matey!" There are subtle differences in each one. But I've noticed a lot of Australians are saying, "buddy". Why do you think that is? Yes, go to the top of the class, American cultural imperialism! Well guess what, I'm here to give you a burst of Australian cultural imperialism. Get used to it....mate.


btw if you're in Sydney and some bastard makes all matey and does a "maaaaaate!" on you, check your wallet

Nothing in the Patriot act says we are afraid of anything. But like I said go ahead and have your police only arrest terrorists AFTER they kill lots of people. I mean if it makes you feel brave and better than us dumb yanks. Mate.

 

[jillian]

Feel better?

Try this - Patriot Act<------ how's that for evidence of frightened America?

And you do know that we have a lot of ways of saying "mate" don't you? There's "mate!" and then there's "maaaaate!" and even "matey!" There are subtle differences in each one. But I've noticed a lot of Australians are saying, "buddy". Why do you think that is? Yes, go to the top of the class, American cultural imperialism! Well guess what, I'm here to give you a burst of Australian cultural imperialism. Get used to it....mate.


btw if you're in Sydney and some bastard makes all matey and does a "maaaaaate!" on you, check your wallet

Amazing, isn't it? The right is all worried about government not letting them smoke in restaurants, but they're ok with warrantless searches b/c some person, who's proven himself untrustworthy from the get-go, says it's ok.

 

[Diuretic]

Nothing in the Patriot act says we are afraid of anything. But like I said go ahead and have your police only arrest terrorists AFTER they kill lots of people. I mean if it makes you feel brave and better than us dumb yanks. Mate.

Do you think the Patriot Act was necessary? Has it enhanced your society? I mean, excuse me for commenting and not being an American, but has it?

As for our police acting after the event. I went out of my way to explain the legal concept of inchoate crimes and I get that from you? I'm offended.

No, not really

And what's with the "dumb Yanks" remark? You think that's how I see (stereotype) Americans? I don't, I won't suck up to you (that's a collective "you") and I'll write (say) what I think without being rude, but I'm not that ignorant I'd resort to that bullshit.

I'll save my insults for the loony right wingnuts

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Amazing, isn't it? The right is all worried about government not letting them smoke in restaurants, but they're ok with warrantless searches b/c some person, who's proven himself untrustworthy from the get-go, says it's ok.

Ahh yes lie about reality. You are of course aware that any warrentless wire tap can NOT be used in court? Or did you just miss that part? Ones rights are not violated if foreign calls are tapped since foreigners outside the damn country have no RIGHTS in this country.

Go ahead Jillian provide us a single case of someone being charged with a crime using the "warrantless" wire taps. Can't be to hard you are always whining about it, come on provide us a name of someone who's rights were violated.

And then explain what we would have charged the 19 terrorists with if caught on 10 September? I mean you are all worried that 7 men that actively tried to be recruited by, funded by and trained by AL Queda hadn't actually bought any explosives yet.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Do you think the Patriot Act was necessary? Has it enhanced your society? I mean, excuse me for commenting and not being an American, but has it?

As for our police acting after the event. I went out of my way to explain the legal concept of inchoate crimes and I get that from you? I'm offended.

No, not really

And what's with the "dumb Yanks" remark? You think that's how I see (stereotype) Americans? I don't, I won't suck up to you (that's a collective "you") and I'll write (say) what I think without being rude, but I'm not that ignorant I'd resort to that bullshit.

I'll save my insults for the loony right wingnuts

Yes the Patriot act was needed,as evidenced by the fact CONGRESS crerated it and passed it AND renewed it. Further it has specific cut offs requiring it be renewed again.

No one that whines about the act can actually provide a single right that has been taken away, a single person that has been denied their legal rights. Yet you all harp on it.

 

[Gunny]

Feel better?

Try this - Patriot Act<------ how's that for evidence of frightened America?

And you do know that we have a lot of ways of saying "mate" don't you? There's "mate!" and then there's "maaaaate!" and even "matey!" There are subtle differences in each one. But I've noticed a lot of Australians are saying, "buddy". Why do you think that is? Yes, go to the top of the class, American cultural imperialism! Well guess what, I'm here to give you a burst of Australian cultural imperialism. Get used to it....mate.


btw if you're in Sydney and some bastard makes all matey and does a "maaaaaate!" on you, check your wallet

The segment of American society that represents the "frightened" who think the government should protect them cradle to grave and wish to disarm the American public (kind of like y'all unfrightened folks Down Under did) do not represent a majority.

As previously stated, one man's "frightened" is another man's "prepared." It all depends on how YOU are trying to spin it. ANYTHING you do not do for common sense reasons can be miscontrued as "fear."

You should be quite dizzy by now from the spinning you're doing.

 

[Diuretic]

Yes the Patriot act was needed,as evidenced by the fact CONGRESS crerated it and passed it AND renewed it. Further it has specific cut offs requiring it be renewed again.

No one that whines about the act can actually provide a single right that has been taken away, a single person that has been denied their legal rights. Yet you all harp on it.

For someone who distrusts his government you're pretty quick to accede to what the Congress decided your nation needed. See what I mean? Yes Congress, you go ahead and do that, we need it. But don't take our guns from us because we might need to take on the US military.

I'm scratching my head. Where is the consistency? You need to have automatic firearms to defend yourselves against your evil gummint but it's okay for Congress to tear your civil liberties apart to defend you from terrorists. Go and read Orwell - Nineteen Eighty-Four - you're living it in your mind.

 

[jillian]

Ahh yes lie about reality. You are of course aware that any warrentless wire tap can NOT be used in court? Or did you just miss that part? Ones rights are not violated if foreign calls are tapped since foreigners outside the damn country have no RIGHTS in this country.

Go ahead Jillian provide us a single case of someone being charged with a crime using the "warrantless" wire taps. Can't be to hard you are always whining about it, come on provide us a name of someone who's rights were violated.

And then explain what we would have charged the 19 terrorists with if caught on 10 September? I mean you are all worried that 7 men that actively tried to be recruited by, funded by and trained by AL Queda hadn't actually bought any explosives yet.

You wouldn't know reality if it stepped up and bit you in the butt. But keep up ranting and raving at/about me when you know I won't engage with anyone who's as irrational as you and incapable of debate.

I'm sure that makes you feel real macho.

I'll leave you with this thought, though... if they're not charging people they surveiled using the warrantless wiretaps, what are they using them for, genius?

 

[Diuretic]

The segment of American society that represents the "frightened" who think the government should protect them cradle to grave and wish to disarm the American public (kind of like y'all unfrightened folks Down Under did) do not represent a majority.

As previously stated, one man's "frightened" is another man's "prepared." It all depends on how YOU are trying to spin it. ANYTHING you do not do for common sense reasons can be miscontrued as "fear."

You should be quite dizzy by now from the spinning you're doing.

So what's the threat level right now?

 

[Ravi]

I agree that they play it up quite a bit (as well as every other media station), but what else would they be? Just law-abiding American citizens? Or law-abiding immigrants? Is it all a big sham? Terrorists really don't exist...and this is just a hollywooded production to make us think that terrorism exists? I guess the Spanish government is also playing this game on their citizens when they bombed their own rail system and killed hundreds (note sarcasm )It's obvious they are deserving where they're at in some way or another. I'll agree that FOX usually plays things up the same as any other station, but these guys are not on trial for stealing bubble-gum from the local convenient store.

What are you talking about? I was pointing out the lameness of using the Miami Seven--a bunch of losers trying to scam $25,000--as something we should fear.

 

[Ravi]

So what's the threat level right now?

Red: Democrats poised to take over the presidency and Congress!

 

[BrianH]

What are you talking about? I was pointing out the lameness of using the Miami Seven--a bunch of losers trying to scam $25,000--as something we should fear.

"In Florida, the retrial of six of the "Liberty City Seven" is coming to a close. The group members, who allegedly plotted to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago and swore allegiance to Al Qaeda on a secret FBI surveillance tape, were arrested in June 2006. Their first trial ended in a not-guilty verdict for one defendant and a mistrial for the other six.

It's a little more indebth that just trying to scam $25,000.

 

[Ravi]

"In Florida, the retrial of six of the "Liberty City Seven" is coming to a close. The group members, who allegedly plotted to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago and swore allegiance to Al Qaeda on a secret FBI surveillance tape, were arrested in June 2006. Their first trial ended in a not-guilty verdict for one defendant and a mistrial for the other six.

It's a little more indebth that just trying to scam $25,000.

mmm...you go into the slum and I imagine you can find seven people to swear allegiance to anyone for $25,000.