Hmmm...another police officer shot in France, by a guy with a rifle....in gun controlled France....

[2aguy]

From this source the number is far higher than 230....

How Many Criminals Shot In Self Defense Each Year Extrano s Alley a gun blog

We do know by comparing FBI and CDC data that between 1300 and 1700 criminals are killed each year by individuals acting in self defense.

While I do not catch every instance of a fatality resulting from a Defensive Gun Use, the reports I do get average 3.27 fatalities a day, again generally confirming the data from official sources.

 

[Brain357]

Forbes article on Cato institute study on defensive gun uses...they culled through reports to get their number...



Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.


A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.

Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders.

There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.


Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

Again there are only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. If they only used deaths the number would be 230. The number is 100,000. So the claim they use only deaths is false.

Those reports come from interviews with private citizens....that is why the NCVS is off, the FBI collects actual data.....

You are still not making sense. Only 230 criminals killed each year in defense.

Okay....let's start from the beginning...where did the 230 come from....? That will help....

Fbi. Have shown you the link. Justifiable homicides.

 

[HenryBHough]

Yup......

France cries out for MORE gun control laws.

 

[2aguy]

Kleck says this....

The rarest, but most serious form of self-defense with a gun is a defensive killing. The FBI does not publish statistics on self-defense killings per se, but it did start publishing counts of civilian justifiable homicides gathered through their Supplementary Homicides Reports program in their 1991 issue. For a variety of reasons, the FBI counts of civilian justifiable homicides represent only a minority of all civilian legal defensive homicides. FBI-counted civilian justifiable homicides were used to estimate total civilian legal defensive homicides. FBI counts of police justifiable homicides are also reported here. Regardless of which counts of homicides by police are used, the results indicate that civilians legally kill far more felons than police officers do. The figures imply that, of 24,614 civilian (not by police) homicide deaths in the United States in 1990, about 1400 to 3200, or 5.6% to 13.0% were legal civilian defensive homicides.

This estimate was independently confirmed by the only national study of homicide dispositions done to date. Analysis of 231 homicides occurring in the U.S. in the first week of May, 1989 indicated that between 15 (6.5%) and 28 (12.1%) were ruled justifiable.

Nonfatal gun woundings are far more frequent than fatal shootings. In 1985 Cook reviewed data that indicate that about 15% of assault-linked gunshot wounds known to the police are fatal, implying a ratio of about 5.67 (85/15) reported nonfatal assaultive gun woundings to each fatal one. Assuming the same applies to legal civilian defensive shootings, there were between 6,300 and 15,300 reported nonfatal, legally permissible woundings of criminals by gun-armed civilians in 1990. Combining the defensive killings and nonfatal woundings, there are about 7,700 to 18,500 reported legal shootings of criminals a year, which would be less than 1% of all defensive gun uses. The rest of defensive gun uses, then, involve neither killings nor woundings but rather misses, warning shots fired, or guns used to threaten, by pointing them or verbally referring to them.

That defensive gun uses, with or without a wounding, are so common is not surprising in view of how many Americans own guns for defensive reasons and keep them ready for defensive use. A 1989 national survey found that 27% of gun owners have a gun mainly for protection, and 62% said that protection from crime was at least one of the reasons they owned guns. This translates into about 16 million people in 1993 who had guns mainly for protection, and about 36 million in 1993 who had them at least partly for protection.

 

[2aguy]

This table shows police killings...

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 14

And by civilians....

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

 

[2aguy]

This explains why civilians killing criminals are underreported....

Justifiable Homicide Shootings Police and Civilians Extrano s Alley a gun blog

On the other hand, the FBI reports just 266 civilian justifiable homicides for 2009.

From media reports, that appears to be almost exactly 25% of the total number of justifiable homicides. The majority of the 1100 or so cases of justifiable homicide appears to have been handed over to a prosecutor who looks the case over, sees he will not get a conviction, and “remands the case to the files.” In reality, the prosecutor has declined the case, but officially the case is still open and awaiting further investigation. The prosecutor as nol-prossed the case, but without notifying the police.

Of the 1122 media reports of civilian self defense for 2009, I have 26 cases of a fatality resulting from “mistaken identity.” Just over two percent of the total number of civilian self defense cases.

 

[Brain357]

This table shows police killings...

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 14

And by civilians....

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

So 258 that year. Far short of 100,000

 

[2aguy]

No one said they kill 100,000...

From the book, or White Paper from CATO...."Tough Targets"

"The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports also significantly overstate murders and understate defensive gun uses. If the police investigat a homicide and ask the district attorney to charge someone with murder or manslaughter, that is reported as a murder to the Uniform Crime Reports program. But district attorney's will often investigate a case in the weeks afterward, find evidence that the killing was justifiable or excusable homicide, and drop the case entirely.

Further, some of the charges, are found to be justifiable or excusable homocide by judges and juries during a trial. this is very often the case in spousal abuse situations where a woman defends herself or her children from an estranged husband.9 A killing initially charged as a murder or negligent homicide that is later reclassified as a justifiable or excusable homicide, will not be moved in the Uniform Crime Reports data from the homicide column to the justifiable homicide column."

---------------------------

They then go on to explain how this can distort numbers by siting an article from Time magazine that looked at deaths in one day and then went back to check on the cases a year later....the 14 non law enforcement justifiable homicides went up to 28 because a year later the 14 other gun crimes were found to be justifiable homicides....and at least 43 other murder cases had not gone to trial....


And they say because of this.......

"clearly, the FBI justifiable homicide data is not particularly meaningful for understanding defensive gun uses that result in death-and is useless for understanding the vastly larger number of defensive gun uses that do not result in death."

 

[2aguy]

the "Tough Targets" then goes on to look at the nature of those defensive gun uses in the data collected....wether they were criminals or non criminals....

they looked at 5000 reported gun defense uses over a period of 2003-2011 culled from news accounts.....

 

[2aguy]

Here you go Brain....this is the White Paper "Tough Targets" and you don't have to pay for it or get a kindle....

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf

The Data Set

At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.

Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12

There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.

In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.

As to wether they included criminals using guns defensively........

In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.

and as to drug dealers.....

How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?

A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59

Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.

 

[Brain357]

Here you go Brain....this is the White Paper "Tough Targets" and you don't have to pay for it or get a kindle....

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf

The Data Set

At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.

Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12

There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.

In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.

As to wether they included criminals using guns defensively........

In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.

and as to drug dealers.....

How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?

A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59

Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.

So I read all this and it is incredibly flawed right from the very start. It is so flawed I had to look at just what this cato institute is:
The Cato Institute is a public policy research organization — a think tank – dedicated to the principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets and peace.

Yes it is right wing.

So this study is flawed from the very start. The least likely people to report a defense would be criminals. So that makes criminal defenses also the least likely to make the newspaper. The fact they found some with criminal activity actually proves there are a lot of them. And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender. The drug dealer defending his stash isn't going to report it to the police and hence never make the news. Sorry this study is ridiculously stupid.

 

[Brain357]

A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

You have still not shown how that makes any sense. We know there are only 230 or so criminals killed in defense each year. Yet the NCVS study says there are about 108,000 defenses each year. Well obviously they are not only counting uses where a citizen kills a criminal. If they were doing that they would claim only 230 or so defenses a year. Sorry but the NCVS study stands. There are about 108k defenses each year. Now if you throw in all the criminals defending themselves like Kleck does than maybe the number is higher.

 

[2aguy]

And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender.

Brain.....that is a lie....Kleck said no such thing.....that is beneath you.....

We know there are only 230 or so criminals killed in defense each year

Not true either, as that paper showed....the prosecutors and police and the FBI do not coordinate homicides to the degree of accuracy where you can make that statement...also, as has been stated before....law abiding citizens do not shoot people that they don't need to shoot.....and criminals don't press the attack and more often than not run away rather than get shot......

and again.....the 19 studies done over a 40 year period, by different researchers both private and government when averaged together show that there are 1.6 million times a gun is used to stop a violent attack and save a life......

 

[2aguy]

Here you go Brain....this is the White Paper "Tough Targets" and you don't have to pay for it or get a kindle....

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf

The Data Set

At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.

Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12

There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.

In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.

As to wether they included criminals using guns defensively........

In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.

and as to drug dealers.....

How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?

A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59

Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.

So I read all this and it is incredibly flawed right from the very start. It is so flawed I had to look at just what this cato institute is:
The Cato Institute is a public policy research organization — a think tank – dedicated to the principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets and peace.

Yes it is right wing.

So this study is flawed from the very start. The least likely people to report a defense would be criminals. So that makes criminal defenses also the least likely to make the newspaper. The fact they found some with criminal activity actually proves there are a lot of them. And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender. The drug dealer defending his stash isn't going to report it to the police and hence never make the news. Sorry this study is ridiculously stupid.

I didn't say it was perfect Brain.....I did tell you they did what the one you keep referring to from the cataloging of "The Armed Citizen " stories but instead of just over 100 they did 5000........just trying to show you that "The Armed Citizen" Study you keep citing is not an accurate way to do it either......

They do make valid points about trying to compute homicide rates, and it was interesting to see that criminals don't disarm victims......

 

[Brain357]

And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender.

Brain.....that is a lie....Kleck said no such thing.....that is beneath you.....

We know there are only 230 or so criminals killed in defense each year

Not true either, as that paper showed....the prosecutors and police and the FBI do not coordinate homicides to the degree of accuracy where you can make that statement...also, as has been stated before....law abiding citizens do not shoot people that they don't need to shoot.....and criminals don't press the attack and more often than not run away rather than get shot......

and again.....the 19 studies done over a 40 year period, by different researchers both private and government when averaged together show that there are 1.6 million times a gun is used to stop a violent attack and save a life......

I'll post it again, it is your quote. No lie.
Kleck:
"This is true because DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

So yes most DGUs are by criminals. No other way to translate that Bill. I know you don't like it, but that's what he said and you obviously think he knows everything.

Is that the Cato paper? The right wing obviously very slanted Cato paper? Or one of your other very pro gun links? Sorry I'll go with the FBI numbers.

The 1.6 number has been debunked many times. And Kleck has clearly stated that is mostly criminals defending themselves. So what value is it?

 

[August West]

Let`s see. Biff and Bubba get into an argument in a bar and pull their guns out. No one gets shot. Does that mean 2 guns were used in defense? I`d say no.

 

[Brain357]

Here you go Brain....this is the White Paper "Tough Targets" and you don't have to pay for it or get a kindle....

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf

The Data Set

At one time, it was widely believed that a fairly large percentage of defensive gun uses
might be criminals defending themselves from other criminals: marijuana growers protecting their crops, gang members de- fending themselves from other gang mem- bers, a falling out between members of a criminal enterprise. That was only specula- tion. For a long time, there was not much in the way of actual data.

Since the survey data has severe limita- tions with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and na- ture of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011.12

There is a selection bias problem with the method of gathering news stories. Many defensive gun uses never make the news. Sometimes that is because the person us- ing a gun in self-defense saw no need to call the police—he or she scared off the bad guy. In some cases, the victim might not want to explain to the police that he has a gun, perhaps because he is a felon, or perhaps because he lives in a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun control laws. Sometimes the police do get called, but the officers do not find the circumstances sufficiently impor- tant to issue a press release. After all, “Man Scares away Burglar, No Shots Fired” is not particularly newsworthy, unless you live in a very small town.

In spite of the selection bias problem, there is one enormous advantage to this model of gathering data: it provides a rich set of information about motives, circum- stances, victims, and criminals. It also pro- vides a sufficiently large database (almost 5,000 incidents), randomly selected, so that some conclusions about the nature of armed self-defense in America can be drawn. Best of all, whatever the deficiencies of news reporting, the model is not completely de- pendent on the honesty or accuracy of the respondent—unlike some of the questions raised with respect to defensive gun use sur- veys.

As to wether they included criminals using guns defensively........

In a few instances, we have includ- ed cases where the initial news reports were clearly of legitimate defensive gun uses, but where law enforcement or a prosecutor chose to charge a gun owner.
Those are relatively rare; when there was any doubt as to whether a use of a gun might be criminal, it was not included in our list of news accounts until such time as there was confirmation that the defensive gun use was deemed lawful. In only a handful of cases did later investiga- tion turn an initial defensive gun use into a criminalcharge.Themostcommonscenario is that law enforcement officers chose not to prosecute based on the evidence at the scene and testimony of witnesses, but referred the case to a grand jury for review.

and as to drug dealers.....

How Many Defensive Gun Uses by Drug Dealers?

A commonly held view among skeptics of defensive gun uses is that many—perhaps most—involve criminals defending them- selves from other criminals, such as drug dealers who are stealing from rival dealers. Without question, there are stories that fit that description—or where you can read be- tween the lines and get that impression. In February 2008 Washington residents Mar- cus Bradford, Khiry Jackson, and Lawrence Adams went to steal drugs and money from Luis Acevedo. Acevedo shot Bradford to death. While Acevedo was still facing charg- es, it was not for shooting Bradford—but for the drugs that Bradford and his associates were there to steal.59

Still, such stories seem to be sufficiently rare that the data set does not have a separate category for drug dealers defending them- selves. A search for the string “drug dealer” in the database found only nine news stories. It is entirely possible that police responding to shootings involving known drug dealers are less inclined to give such individuals the benefit of the doubt on questionable shoot- ings—but still, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun use stories involve ordinary and decent people defending themselves against criminals.

So I read all this and it is incredibly flawed right from the very start. It is so flawed I had to look at just what this cato institute is:
The Cato Institute is a public policy research organization — a think tank – dedicated to the principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets and peace.

Yes it is right wing.

So this study is flawed from the very start. The least likely people to report a defense would be criminals. So that makes criminal defenses also the least likely to make the newspaper. The fact they found some with criminal activity actually proves there are a lot of them. And well Kleck makes it clear the majority of them involve criminal activity by the defender. The drug dealer defending his stash isn't going to report it to the police and hence never make the news. Sorry this study is ridiculously stupid.

I didn't say it was perfect Brain.....I did tell you they did what the one you keep referring to from the cataloging of "The Armed Citizen " stories but instead of just over 100 they did 5000........just trying to show you that "The Armed Citizen" Study you keep citing is not an accurate way to do it either......

They do make valid points about trying to compute homicide rates, and it was interesting to see that criminals don't disarm victims......

It was an interesting read, but they are clearly very slanted. You can't use a sample that is least likely to have what you are looking for. The armed citizen study does not have that issue. It is just a sample of defenses. It too couldn't be used to determine if defenses are mostly by criminals, but it can be used to study what happens when law abiding citizens defend themselves.

 

[Brain357]

Let`s see. Biff and Bubba get into an argument in a bar and pull their guns out. No one gets shot. Does that mean 2 guns were used in defense? I`d say no.

Kleck would say so. And if it were two felon gang members it would be counted also.

 

[Ava]

No, I am commenting on the belief that gun control laws work.....we on the pro 2nd amendment side have always pointed out, that if you ban guns....law abiding citizens will obey that law, and the criminals won't......so all you are doing is disarming law abiding people who won't kill other innocent people....

Canada, Australia, and France have shown this to be true....

You have convicted terrorists on French watch lists who were able to get military grade Russian rifles and a rocket propelled grenade, when they wanted them.....

Not one innocent, law abiding French citizen had a gun, that is 27 people during the attack on the magazine, and all the bystanders then and this shooting......so gun control has worked as we said it would....

Don't tell me that they have less gun murders because criminals can't get guns.....they have less gun murders because their criminals have decided not to do them.....it seems like the terrorists have just decided to start doing it....


Also....keep in mind another thread.....Puerto Rico....and island nation....has the strictest control in the United States.....and they have the highest gun murder rate in the world....

Gun control guarantees that good people will be helpless against armed criminals who work alone or in groups....

Gun control= sitting ducks. No thanks!!!!!!! If I am being shot at or threatened, I want at least to have the equal of my perpetrator. I will already be at a disadvantage because of their surprise attack. I would vote for open carry laws, as unpopular as that sounds. It has come to this.

 

[2aguy]

Let`s see. Biff and Bubba get into an argument in a bar and pull their guns out. No one gets shot. Does that mean 2 guns were used in defense? I`d say no.

Kleck would say so. And if it were two felon gang members it would be counted also.

No....that isn't necessarily what kleck would say......a little more info. on why they drew their guns would be required......