Historical Parallels Between Poland and the Ukraine

[jwoodie]

It recently struck me that the current Russian incursion into the Ukraine has several historical parallels with the German attack on Poland in 1939.

1. Both Russia and Germany were faced with important parts of their territories (Sevastapol/Crimea and Danzig/Prussia) having become geographically separated from the rest of their countries. Both tried to negotiate with the newly recreated intervening countries (Ukraine and Poland) to reestablish physical links to these territories.

2. Outside Powers (U.S. and Great Britain) interfered with these negotiations by falsely assuring the intervening countries that they would be protected if they refused to negotiate. After attempts at negotiation failed, both Russia and Germany seized areas of these intervening countries in order to reestablish physical links with their severed territories.

3. After these incursions took place, Outside Powers officially declared their opposition but were not able to undertake any actions to repel the incursions. In the case of Poland, Great Britain's weak political leadership had already emboldened Germany to the extent that a second world war became inevitable.

4. In the case of the Ukraine, America's weak leadership has emboldened Russia in the same way. The American government has reduced itself to the position of a broadcaster at a sporting event; describing the action but having no control over the outcome.

 

[Donald H]

It recently struck me that the current Russian incursion into the Ukraine has several historical parallels with the German attack on Poland in 1939.

1. Both Russia and Germany were faced with important parts of their territories (Sevastapol/Crimea and Danzig/Prussia) having become geographically separated from the rest of their countries. Both tried to negotiate with the newly recreated intervening countries (Ukraine and Poland) to reestablish physical links to these territories.

2. Outside Powers (U.S. and Great Britain) interfered with these negotiations by falsely assuring the intervening countries that they would be protected if they refused to negotiate. After attempts at negotiation failed, both Russia and Germany seized areas of these intervening countries in order to reestablish physical links with their severed territories.

3. After these incursions took place, Outside Powers officially declared their opposition but were not able to undertake any actions to repel the incursions. In the case of Poland, Great Britain's weak political leadership had already emboldened Germany to the extent that a second world war became inevitable.

4. In the case of the Ukraine, America's weak leadership has emboldened Russia in the same way. The American government has reduced itself to the position of a broadcaster at a sporting event; describing the action but having no control over the outcome.

Is that you woodie or was it a cut and paste?
I only ask because it's quite professional in it's talking points propaganda!

In your parallel analogous scenario, who plays the part of Hitler?

Can it still be made to work for us when America's wars of aggression (about 40 of them) have already preceded Poland (the Ukraine)?

Would an American president's war on Iraq be suitably substituted by Churchill's role in 39?

 

[Weatherman2020]

It recently struck me that the current Russian incursion into the Ukraine has several historical parallels with the German attack on Poland in 1939.

1. Both Russia and Germany were faced with important parts of their territories (Sevastapol/Crimea and Danzig/Prussia) having become geographically separated from the rest of their countries. Both tried to negotiate with the newly recreated intervening countries (Ukraine and Poland) to reestablish physical links to these territories.

2. Outside Powers (U.S. and Great Britain) interfered with these negotiations by falsely assuring the intervening countries that they would be protected if they refused to negotiate. After attempts at negotiation failed, both Russia and Germany seized areas of these intervening countries in order to reestablish physical links with their severed territories.

3. After these incursions took place, Outside Powers officially declared their opposition but were not able to undertake any actions to repel the incursions. In the case of Poland, Great Britain's weak political leadership had already emboldened Germany to the extent that a second world war became inevitable.

4. In the case of the Ukraine, America's weak leadership has emboldened Russia in the same way. The American government has reduced itself to the position of a broadcaster at a sporting event; describing the action but having no control over the outcome.

Actually it goes back to Germany taking the Rhineland two years prior and Hitler being emboldened by the Allies non response.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Is that you woodie or was it a cut and paste?
I only ask because it's quite professional in it's talking points propaganda!

In your parallel analogous scenario, who plays the part of Hitler?

Can it still be made to work for us when America's wars of aggression (about 40 of them) have already preceded Poland (the Ukraine)?

Would an American president's war on Iraq be suitably substituted by Churchill's role in 39?

Brandon plays Neville Chamberlain.
And Churchill was not PM in 1939, Dufus.

 

[Donald H]

Brandon plays by Neville Chamberlain.
And Churchill was not PM in 1939, Dufus.

You misunderstand my intent.
Were all of America's wars of aggression the parallel of Hitler's war on Poland?

His talking points were the exact right ones, but they are better suited to Russia's counterpoints.

And never mind that the Ukraine has that lasting connection to Nazism/Fascism.

 

[Weatherman2020]

You misunderstand my intent.
Were all of America's wars of aggression the parallel of Hitler's war on Poland?

His talking points were the exact right ones, but they are better suited to Russia's counterpoints.

And never mind that the Ukraine has that lasting connection to Nazism/Fascism.

I’m not shocked you think the intent of US wars is no different than Putin’s or Hitler’s.

 

[Donald H]

I’m not shocked you think the intent of US wars is no different than Putin’s or Hitler’s.

It's just that I'm never heard one to fit the Iraq war that's worth buying into.

Saddam forced America to believe he had them?
He took them all to Syria?
Saddam was bad and so a million Iraqis had to die for Saddam's sins?

Vietnam was to save millions of people who were only intent on standing under US bombs?

I can get a lot more colourful for you!

 

[jwoodie]

Actually it goes back to Germany taking the Rhineland two years prior and Hitler being emboldened by the Allies non response.

Actually, Germany's taking back the Rhineland was widely viewed as a justified (if unofficial) modification of the Versailles Treaty. However, the Anschluss with Austria should have given Neville Chamberlain a clue about Germany's intentions. The subsequent unopposed occupation of Czechoslovakia gave Hitler a green light to pursue his ambitions.

In the same manner, should Russia's cooperation with China have give Joe Biden a clue about Russia's intentions? Did the unopposed occupation of Crimea also give Putin a green light to pursue his ambitions?

 

[Donald H]

In the same manner, should Russia's cooperation with China have give Joe Biden a clue about Russia's intentions?

What kind of a stretch are you trying for with that? All the leaders of large and powerful nations understand that there's a competition for the world's resources. That was as true for Germany in the late 30's as it is today for America and the others. Even more true for Germany in that they were denied resources by the US made treaty.

Did the unopposed occupation of Crimea also give Putin a green light to pursue his ambitions?

Understanding that Putin had to take the Crimea is as easy to understand as how America would have to react if Russia tried to take California and the equivalent of the Crimea that's berthed in San Diego.

 

[jwoodie]

All the leaders of large and powerful nations understand that there's a competition for the world's resources.

Do you think Biden understands that?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Actually it goes back to Germany taking the Rhineland two years prior and Hitler being emboldened by the Allies non response.

Any Country That Tolerates Chickenhawks Is Terminal

There was no appeasement in the sense of cowardice. The Allies turned Hitler loose because they relied on him to drive the Communists out of Europe and then destroy the Soviet Union. They woke up only when he formed a non-aggression pact with the Communists to divvy up Poland, which, like all the other countries he overran and like the Ukraine today, were choirs of gutless clowns foolishly expecting other countries to fight for them.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I’m not shocked you think the intent of US wars is no different than from!!! Putin’s or Hitler’s.

College Means Nothing More Than Buying a Job, Which Puts Inferior People in Superior Positions

Diploma Dumbos are incapable of making analogies and of all other abstract thought. Putin is enforcing Russia's Monroe Doctrine, which it has been doing since before Monroe was even born.

Collegiate thinking: "How can other countries have a Monroe Doctrine when Monroe was an American? Will this be on the exam?"

 

[Donald H]

I’m not shocked you think the intent of US wars is no different than Putin’s or Hitler’s.

Was America's Iraq wars and the Vietnam war any more justifiable than Hitlers'?

You answer me that without crossing your flippers behind your back and then I'll tell you why Putin's war is much more justifiable.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Was America's Iraq wars and the Vietnam war any more justifiable than Hitlers'?

You answer me that without crossing your flippers behind your back and then I'll tell you why Putin's war is much more justifiable.

Ever been to Iraq or Vietnam?
If you want to live under a totalitarian communist state rather than a Democracy, why aren’t you living under one like you think those people should?

Tell me how Vietnam was any different than France 1944.

 

[Donald H]

Ever been to Iraq or Vietnam?
If you want to live under a totalitarian communist state rather than a Democracy, why aren’t you living under one like you think those people should?

It would require a detailed explanation and there's no possibility of you being understand, never mind hear it and consider it rationally. Prove to me that you have an interest in discussion and not just flinging of sh-t and we might be able to discuss some questions rationally. I doubt that's what you're here for but you could surprise me!

 

[Weatherman2020]

It would require a detailed explanation and there's no possibility of you being understand, never mind hear it and consider it rationally. Prove to me that you have an interest in discussion and not just flinging of sh-t and we might be able to discuss some questions rationally. I doubt that's what you're here for but you could surprise me!

Ah yes. Very complicated answer that only a few American haters can grasp.

I asked a yes or no question.
I expected that kind of evasive answer.

 

[Donald H]

Ah yes. Very complicated answer that only a few American haters can grasp.

I asked a yes or no question.
I expected that kind of evasive answer.

I'll test whether or not you can demonstrate some sincerity, even though I'm pretty sure it's a waste of my time.

Authoritarian governments can work better for the good of the people, than a capitalist government that is corrupted by big business and no longer serves the interests of the people. I suggest a polite discussion on China's success.

If that turns out to be wasting words on you, then perhaps some others will read and have their interest stirred up?

 

[rupol2000]

There are no "parallels" Ukrainians are the Poles. The Ukrainian language is Polish, and they separated them in the middle of the 18th century.

Bandera are not Ukrainians. These are Torquay + Muscovites + Serbs.

Initially, Torks lived in the hetmanate, they adjoined Moscow, then the Serbs were resettled there.

 

[rupol2000]

 

[rupol2000]

And the fact that Bandera is now passing off as "Ukrainian history" is the Moscow hetmanate, the former Little Russia.

This territory is the heritage of the Torks, and in fact it seems to be exactly what was Kievan Rus, there is the Ros river and the Rusyn people. The coat of arms of Rurikovich is the coat of arms of Bandera-Ukrain.

This part of the territory is forested and adjacent to Belarus