Herman Cains plan? 9-9-9 For those that hate it

[L.K.Eder]

i like the 9-9-9 plan.

it is short, so i don't have to read much.

it is easy to understand, because i am familiar with the number 9.

and it is cool. three times the number nine! yeehaw!

This is fantastic, your support of the plan is just as complete and well thought out as the plan is!!!

what a coincidence.

 

[Lakhota]

 

[Lakhota]

By STEPHEN OHLEMACHER

WASHINGTON — Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan would raise taxes on 84 percent of U.S. households, according to an independent analysis released Tuesday, contradicting claims by the Republican presidential candidate that most Americans would see a tax cut.

The Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank, says low- and middle-income families would be hit hardest, with households making between $10,000 and $20,000 seeing their taxes increase by nearly 950 percent.

"You're talking a $2,700 tax increase for people with incomes between $10,000 and $20,000," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. "That's huge."

Households with the highest incomes, however, would get big tax cuts. Those making more than $1 million a year would see their taxes cut nearly in half, on average, according to the analysis.

More: 999 Plan: Herman Cain's Proposal Would Raise Taxes On 84 Percent, Study Shows

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

I made it clear in my op that I was not wed to the plan in its purest form. I know it needs work. I also know its a good base to start from.

Who are you guys trying to convince that its bad in its current form?

Every idea or piece of legislation that matters goes through changes.

 

[WillowTree]

First lets start off by admiting the obvious.......... Cain actually has a plan. For better or for worse he has a plan. What do the others have?

Obama has a nifty slogan, Hate the.... er I mean tax the rich.
Romney has a plan, or as many could say a maze of confusion.
Perry to my knowledge still thinks he is in first place and doesnt need a plan beyond drilling for oil.
Bachmann hate Obamacare (great plan) but very shallow
Huntsman is a lib pretending to be a Republican.
Paul has crazy followers that think he is Obiwan Kenobi
Newt has lots of ideas that will never be heard.
Santorum just wants everyone to join the angry bus.

Now back to Cains plan....

First of all I believe it is a pretty solid plan and even if you dont believe it is, it could easily be tweaked to work. Of course we would need a Senate that actually does their job and not just table ideas they disagree with rather than debating them and offering counter solutions.

1. A limit or trigger point, if you will, could be instituted on income levels to protect the poorest among us.

2. Food could be exempt from the sales tax portion.

3. Money made in the black market would eventually produce taxes when it was eventually spent on non black market goods. Thus taxing money that otherwise slips below the radar.

4. The actual tax amount could and would be debated to what is deemed a fair amount.

5. Perscription medication could be exempt.

6. Corperations that currently dodge taxes would pay just like the rest of us.

7. The class envy war would be nullified because other than the poor everyone would pay based on their ability not their status.

People once insisted the Earth was flat and their were others that believed the sun orbited the Earth. When someone opposed those ideas they were laughed at. Who gets the last laugh now?

Our tax system is fucked beyond complicated. Why not work with ideas when they are presented? Simply raising taxes solves nothing other than to raise anymosity to new levels.

I dont have any idea if his plan is worked to the point that it is as good as it can be and neither do any of you. He has stated that in the next couple of weeks he will be releasing more information on the breadth of his plan. Point is lets try to make the system better rather than just look for the next partisan talking point.

Gramps.. corporations would pass their tax bills onto the consumer by raising their prices, then we the consumer would have to pay taxes on a commodity twice.. unless prices are frozen of course. I dunno.

 

[Lakhota]

Hitler also had a plan...

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

First lets start off by admiting the obvious.......... Cain actually has a plan. For better or for worse he has a plan. What do the others have?

Obama has a nifty slogan, Hate the.... er I mean tax the rich.
Romney has a plan, or as many could say a maze of confusion.
Perry to my knowledge still thinks he is in first place and doesnt need a plan beyond drilling for oil.
Bachmann hate Obamacare (great plan) but very shallow
Huntsman is a lib pretending to be a Republican.
Paul has crazy followers that think he is Obiwan Kenobi
Newt has lots of ideas that will never be heard.
Santorum just wants everyone to join the angry bus.

Now back to Cains plan....

First of all I believe it is a pretty solid plan and even if you dont believe it is, it could easily be tweaked to work. Of course we would need a Senate that actually does their job and not just table ideas they disagree with rather than debating them and offering counter solutions.

1. A limit or trigger point, if you will, could be instituted on income levels to protect the poorest among us.

2. Food could be exempt from the sales tax portion.

3. Money made in the black market would eventually produce taxes when it was eventually spent on non black market goods. Thus taxing money that otherwise slips below the radar.

4. The actual tax amount could and would be debated to what is deemed a fair amount.

5. Perscription medication could be exempt.

6. Corperations that currently dodge taxes would pay just like the rest of us.

7. The class envy war would be nullified because other than the poor everyone would pay based on their ability not their status.

People once insisted the Earth was flat and their were others that believed the sun orbited the Earth. When someone opposed those ideas they were laughed at. Who gets the last laugh now?

Our tax system is fucked beyond complicated. Why not work with ideas when they are presented? Simply raising taxes solves nothing other than to raise anymosity to new levels.

I dont have any idea if his plan is worked to the point that it is as good as it can be and neither do any of you. He has stated that in the next couple of weeks he will be releasing more information on the breadth of his plan. Point is lets try to make the system better rather than just look for the next partisan talking point.

Gramps.. corporations would pass their tax bills onto the consumer by raising their prices, then we the consumer would have to pay taxes on a commodity twice.. unless prices are frozen of course. I dunno.

Your right, but who's to say that they currently don't do that at the higher tax rate? I do in my business so why wouldn't they? Then with a lower tax would that not help prices hold steady?

Just a thought.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Hitler also had a plan...

His economic idea's took Germany from a depression that made ours look like a walk in the park(1932) to the most powerful nation by 1938. What has Obama done or Even FDR, which took clear into the 1950's to get back to the 1920 levels?

 

[Intense]

I made it clear in my op that I was not wed to the plan in its purest form. I know it needs work. I also know its a good base to start from.

Who are you guys trying to convince that its bad in its current form?

Every idea or piece of legislation that matters goes through changes.

One of my biggest problems with the plan is the National Sales tax. When combined with State Sales Taxes, it is steep. The problem with that is that it opens the door to Black Market competition. It will increase the criminal element in Retail Sales, driving out honest competition. It does it now already. Local Authorities are very poor at weeding this element out. Add in the Illegal Alien factor and it destroys quality of life, unreported Sales, Unreported Income.

 

[candycorn]

Not even close. When tax cuts first take effect they people and business' have more money than they did before they take effect, over time that additional money gets incorporated into thier normal spending habits and becomes the new norm. after 4 or 5 years the stimulative effect is gone as to stimulate the economy you have to pump something new into it and the same taxes you had last year for 5 years is nothing new. It is a matter of norming, not psychology.

So after one budget cycle, there should be no effect if taxes are cut on businesses?

who said that? Obviously if the cut is big enough it takes time for the adjustment to take root and become the new normal. Think about how long it would take to spend a million bucks if you were trying not to spend it anywhere that wouldn't return more than you spent and you'll get the idea. If the kitty's big enough and being replenished as it's spent it's gonna take a while and the stimulative effect will last longer. At some point however all the growth that can be financed by it is purchased and things settle out in a bigger pie returning to normal except the pie is bigger. At that point the cut stops having a stimulating effect because it takes more money to fill the pie. I mean if you want to have an adult conversation fine. But if what you're doing is attempting to catch me in some imagined and exagerated inconsistancy by asking stupid and leading questions then I'll pass.

Dude, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to catch you in anything; just asking a question. I hope you accept my sincerity. I say this with sincerity too; it continues to sound like psychological at least in part. I mean, if your plan for 5 years was to have X amount of money and a tax cut comes along and you have an extra $10,000 at the end year one, I don't know about others but I don't bank on getting that extra $10K every year.

Opinions vary and I appreciate you sharing yours. Again, that is sincere.

The dichotomy I see is that nearly every Republican swears that tax cuts grow the economy. Nearly every Republican nowadays swears that our economy is in trouble. So I'm curious why the Republicans are not pounding the drum for a tax cut right now when we arguably need it most.

I just find that to be strange. The only explanation I've heard so far is that it would be politically dis-advantageous for them to do so which I reject on 2 fronts; the fact that tax cuts are politically popular and the fact that I doubt Republicans in Congress are that craven a group. I'm sure about the first part, not so sure about the second.

 

[candycorn]

Yes, they are made in the USA. For all of the guff Wal*Mart gets for featuring a lot of stuff made from overseas, almost all of the food in Wal*Mart (there are some exceptions) is produced in this country. Wal*Mart is the #1 grocer in the US. As I said though, I know food isn't taxed when we buy it but I don't know about the wholesale level. I doubt it.

But Wal*Mart does buy a shitload of domestically produced goods.

OK. I did know that Wal-Mart's food tends to be US-grown. Not every Wal-Mart has food, though, and I'm guessing as a percentage of Wal-Mart's total expenses, labor and merchandise from overseas dwarfs it. I can't be sure, though.

I don't have any problem with Wal-Mart, though. I think the issue is whether Cain's plan would increase Wal-Mart's taxes enough to cause layoffs (being that it is America's largest employer).

Ahh.

 

[rightwinger]

I made it clear in my op that I was not wed to the plan in its purest form. I know it needs work. I also know its a good base to start from.

Who are you guys trying to convince that its bad in its current form?

Every idea or piece of legislation that matters goes through changes.

One of my biggest problems with the plan is the National Sales tax. When combined with State Sales Taxes, it is steep. The problem with that is that it opens the door to Black Market competition. It will increase the criminal element in Retail Sales, driving out honest competition. It does it now already. Local Authorities are very poor at weeding this element out. Add in the Illegal Alien factor and it destroys quality of life, unreported Sales, Unreported Income.

In my state I have seen the sales tax creep from 4% to 5% to 6% to finally 7%. Each step was painful.

To slap on an additional 9% at the federal level is brutal

 

[Immanuel]

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is if the 9% (income tax) includes Social Security and Medicare taxes. If it does then the 9% would not be much if any of an increase at all for even the lowest wage earners.

That does not, however, change the fact that the sales tax portion would, in fact, hit the lowest wage earners hardest.

Immie

 

[BenNatuf]

I made it clear in my op that I was not wed to the plan in its purest form. I know it needs work. I also know its a good base to start from.

Who are you guys trying to convince that its bad in its current form?

Every idea or piece of legislation that matters goes through changes.

LOL...

Just a little to hopey changey for me.

 

[BenNatuf]

First lets start off by admiting the obvious.......... Cain actually has a plan. For better or for worse he has a plan. What do the others have?

Obama has a nifty slogan, Hate the.... er I mean tax the rich.
Romney has a plan, or as many could say a maze of confusion.
Perry to my knowledge still thinks he is in first place and doesnt need a plan beyond drilling for oil.
Bachmann hate Obamacare (great plan) but very shallow
Huntsman is a lib pretending to be a Republican.
Paul has crazy followers that think he is Obiwan Kenobi
Newt has lots of ideas that will never be heard.
Santorum just wants everyone to join the angry bus.

Now back to Cains plan....

First of all I believe it is a pretty solid plan and even if you dont believe it is, it could easily be tweaked to work. Of course we would need a Senate that actually does their job and not just table ideas they disagree with rather than debating them and offering counter solutions.

1. A limit or trigger point, if you will, could be instituted on income levels to protect the poorest among us.

2. Food could be exempt from the sales tax portion.

3. Money made in the black market would eventually produce taxes when it was eventually spent on non black market goods. Thus taxing money that otherwise slips below the radar.

4. The actual tax amount could and would be debated to what is deemed a fair amount.

5. Perscription medication could be exempt.

6. Corperations that currently dodge taxes would pay just like the rest of us.

7. The class envy war would be nullified because other than the poor everyone would pay based on their ability not their status.

People once insisted the Earth was flat and their were others that believed the sun orbited the Earth. When someone opposed those ideas they were laughed at. Who gets the last laugh now?

Our tax system is fucked beyond complicated. Why not work with ideas when they are presented? Simply raising taxes solves nothing other than to raise anymosity to new levels.

I dont have any idea if his plan is worked to the point that it is as good as it can be and neither do any of you. He has stated that in the next couple of weeks he will be releasing more information on the breadth of his plan. Point is lets try to make the system better rather than just look for the next partisan talking point.

Gramps.. corporations would pass their tax bills onto the consumer by raising their prices, then we the consumer would have to pay taxes on a commodity twice.. unless prices are frozen of course. I dunno.

Your right, but who's to say that they currently don't do that at the higher tax rate? I do in my business so why wouldn't they? Then with a lower tax would that not help prices hold steady?

Just a thought.

The tax will not be lower. Currently profits are taxed, under 999 revenue is taxed. Lower rate, higher taxable amount.

 

[Intense]

I made it clear in my op that I was not wed to the plan in its purest form. I know it needs work. I also know its a good base to start from.

Who are you guys trying to convince that its bad in its current form?

Every idea or piece of legislation that matters goes through changes.

One of my biggest problems with the plan is the National Sales tax. When combined with State Sales Taxes, it is steep. The problem with that is that it opens the door to Black Market competition. It will increase the criminal element in Retail Sales, driving out honest competition. It does it now already. Local Authorities are very poor at weeding this element out. Add in the Illegal Alien factor and it destroys quality of life, unreported Sales, Unreported Income.

In my state I have seen the sales tax creep from 4% to 5% to 6% to finally 7%. Each step was painful.

To slap on an additional 9% at the federal level is brutal

Keep in mind though, in theory, it replaces the deductions from your pay stub. I say in theory because in the end it's just a new form of taxation that will be increased by one Congress or another as soon as they can get away with it.

Bottom line, Nobody needs to be Budgeting in the Trillions, that needs to stop now. A Flat Tax that we could agree on for the most part, is fair, throwing away the deductions and loop holes. Government needs to stop punishing Small Enterprise while creating special privilege for the Big Conglomerates.

Why not Reward Savings, Impartially, up to a certain amount per Citizen? How about an Interest Rate above the Rate of Inflation?

 

[thereisnospoon]

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is if the 9% (income tax) includes Social Security and Medicare taxes. If it does then the 9% would not be much if any of an increase at all for even the lowest wage earners.

That does not, however, change the fact that the sales tax portion would, in fact, hit the lowest wage earners hardest.

Immie

I disagree. Sales taxes are paid only when someone buys something. Because lower income people have less to spend, obviously the less of the sales tax they will pay.
On the other hand, the lower 48% of of wage earners will not have a stake in the nation. Currently, these people bear no federal tax liability.

 

[Immanuel]

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is if the 9% (income tax) includes Social Security and Medicare taxes. If it does then the 9% would not be much if any of an increase at all for even the lowest wage earners.

That does not, however, change the fact that the sales tax portion would, in fact, hit the lowest wage earners hardest.

Immie

I disagree. Sales taxes are paid only when someone buys something. Because lower income people have less to spend, obviously the less of the sales tax they will pay.
On the other hand, the lower 48% of of wage earners will not have a stake in the nation. Currently, these people bear no federal tax liability.

While I agree with you about sales taxes being more easy to manipulate for the poor, I do think that sales tax hits them harder than the rich.

If we were talking about only a sales tax and not a sales tax in addition to the income tax, I would be more inclined to support the sales tax over the income tax. On the other hand, this plan does nothing to lower income/FICA taxes for the poor AND it adds the additional burden of a federal sales tax.

The 9-9-9 plan would be heavy handed on the poor. That is not to say that I don't think that the poor should be paying taxes too, but I think this plan is doomed to failure partly because it obviously lowers the tax burden of the rich and it increases the burden on the poor.

Getting that passed would require one hell of a sales job.

Immie

 

[The T]

Hitler also had a plan...

Still haven't learned, have you, dolt?

 

[BenNatuf]

So, have our resident conservatives and liberals figured out yet that this is NOT a tax cut for business? Thats Cain's claim of "removing embedded taxes" is false? That it's a tax increase on just about every household that earns less than 50K (considering family of 4)? That it actually taxes labor at 18% (once as revenue for the business and once as income for the earner)? That there are more questions with this idiotic scheme than there are answers? That foriegn goods will be taxed at 18% (once at the point of sale and once as revenue)? That slapping a 9% tax on new homes and new cars is a pretty stupid thing to do when homebuilding and auto sales are already depressed? That it will drive service industries underground and encourage the hiring of more illegal aliens? That given all of that it isn't going to herald any "econiomic boom" and the claims that it will are bullshit. That companies will still have to keep records and do tax assurance and the cost of compliance will not go down appreciably?

The plan sucks.