Here comes the history revision

DKSuddeth

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2003
5,175
61
48
North Texas
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040127.wxiraq27/BNStory/Front/

White House emissaries head abroad to recast war

Toppling Hussein replaces weapons cache as main justification for U.S.-led attack



By PAUL KORING
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail


Washington — Seeking to recast its reasons for toppling Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, the Bush administration is sending high-ranking officials abroad to justify the war as good for humanity, despite increasing evidence that Baghdad did not possess stockpiles of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.

"The former dictator sits in captivity. He can no longer harbour and support terrorists, and his long efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction are at an end," U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney said yesterday in a speech to political and business leaders in Rome. Today, Mr. Cheney will take the same message to the Vatican on a fence-mending mission to Pope John Paul II, who had condemned the war as a defeat for humanity and whose personal emissary failed to dissuade President George W. Bush from attacking Iraq last spring.

Mr. Cheney made no mention of recent statements by David Kay, the former chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, who said he does not believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S.-led war began.

The Vice-President, whose visit to Rome is part of a five-day European swing, has spent much of the past two years in undisclosed locations, rarely making public appearances, except at Republican fundraisers. But as the U.S. election year unfolds, he is expected to make more high-profile trips abroad.

In Vienna yesterday, Attorney-General John Ashcroft said that even if weapons of mass destruction are never found in Iraq, the war was justified because Mr. Hussein can no longer resort to "evil chemistry and evil biology."

Mr. Bush laid the groundwork for redefining the war's rationale in his recent State of the Union address. "For all who love freedom and peace, the world without Saddam Hussein's regime is a better and safer place," he said.

But he made no mention of a rogue regime that posed imminent danger to the United States because of stockpiles of weapons.

And his Secretary of State, Colin Powell, is sounding increasingly vague about the lack of evidence found in Iraq, despite months of searching. "What is the open question is, how many stockpiles they had, if any. And if they had any, where did they go? If they didn't have any, why wasn't that known beforehand?" Mr. Powell said on the weekend, en route to the Georgia capital of Tbilisi before heading to Moscow to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Meanwhile, the White House was adamant yesterday that the war was justified. "Saddam Hussein was a dangerous and gathering threat, and the President made the right decision to remove him from power," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said. But Mr. McClellan also seemed to suggest that there would be no more pre-emptive wars against rogue regimes, the controversial Bush doctrine that many regard as flouting international law.

"Iraq was unique," Mr. McClellan said. "Saddam Hussein's regime had weapons of mass destruction, they used weapons of mass destruction on its neighbours and on his own people, and they failed to account for the weapons and weapons programs. . . . Given his history and given the events of Sept. 11, we could not afford to rely on the good intentions of Saddam Hussein."

But Washington's efforts to recast its justifications for the war seem unlikely to satisfy critics, or defuse it as an election issue. Democratic presidential candidates have stepped up their attacks on the war. "We were misled," said Massachusetts Senator John Kerry, who originally backed the war and is heading into today's New Hampshire primary leading the polls.

"Misled not only in the intelligence, but misled in the way that the President took us to war."

Gee, why would they have to resort to something like this if it weren't for the stress on WMD's being the main crux for this war?
 
DK, you're just going to have to come to grips with the fact that there were many reasons stated for going to war. Yes, WMD were stressed. No, nothing has been found to date.

Repeating the WMD over and over won't ever change the fact that there were various reasons given. If people listened throughout the past 13 years and still felt that was the only reason that troops were sent in, then they just didn't listen very well!
 
Actually Jim, its the bush admin thats going to have to come to grips that they nowingly misled the world to believe WMD's as the main point for war(despite stating half a dozen reasons to cover their collective ass) and now they may have to answer for that deception.

Personally, I think all thats going to happen is that Bush will not win re-election simply because the US has a huge reputation for flouting the UN and the world when it comes to war crimes, but thats just me...

Repeating the WMD over and over won't ever change the fact that there were various reasons given. If people listened throughout the past 13 years and still felt that was the only reason that troops were sent in, then they just didn't listen very well!

I'm sure that they were listening, Jim, but most of the world felt that Hussein was contained and his 'programs' were just that...programs, and he hardly represented any imminent threat except to those in his own country.
 
Actually Jim, its the bush admin thats going to have to come to grips that they nowingly misled the world to believe WMD's as the main point for war(despite stating half a dozen reasons to cover their collective ass) and now they may have to answer for that deception.

Oh boy, here we go again! Do you have ANY proof whatsover that anyone was 'knowingly mislead'?

Personally, I think all thats going to happen is that Bush will not win re-election simply because the US has a huge reputation for flouting the UN and the world when it comes to war crimes, but thats just me...

Have you looked at the democratic field lately? Even most Dems are laughing at those dopes.

I'm sure that they were listening, Jim, but most of the world felt that Hussein was contained and his 'programs' were just that...programs, and he hardly represented any imminent threat except to those in his own country.

And nobody ever stated there was an 'imminent threat'. This is what I'm talking about when I say people weren't 'listening' properly.
 
Do you have ANY proof whatsover that anyone was 'knowingly mislead'?

Thats being investigated.

Have you looked at the democratic field lately? Even most Dems are laughing at those dopes.

As more spin from the white house muddies the waters about this war, people will start to feel deceived and turn away.

And nobody ever stated there was an 'imminent threat'. This is what I'm talking about when I say people weren't 'listening' properly.

In this, you are right. At no time did the words 'Iraq is an imminent threat' come from the mouth of anyone in the administration, but people are a funny creature and the more times someone stresses something (like WMDs) the more important they are going to deem that subject. WMD's were mentioned so many times in comparison to the 'other reasons' that it would be impossible not to state that they were the highest priority and now that there seems to be no evidence....
 
Thats being investigated.

Well then, I guess it's a bit premature to be throwing around accusations, wouldn't you agree?

As more spin from the white house muddies the waters about this war, people will start to feel deceived and turn away.

Perhaps, only time will tell. The Dems are doing themselves in in the meantime.

In this, you are right. At no time did the words 'Iraq is an imminent threat' come from the mouth of anyone in the administration, but people are a funny creature and the more times someone stresses something (like WMDs) the more important they are going to deem that subject. WMD's were mentioned so many times in comparison to the 'other reasons' that it would be impossible not to state that they were the highest priority and now that there seems to be no evidence....

WMD should have been the highest priority. That still doesn't negate the rest of the reasons. Whether the intel was faulty or not is for another thread, but the fact that there were questions about WMD open for over 12 years is reason enough to put an end to the doubt. We tried to do it 'properly' with inspections, but Saddam never 'fully' complied. As long as there was doubt, the urgency to know for sure was there. Add that together with the humanitarian issues and you have a recipe to remove Saddam and regime ASAP.
 
DK,

I agree completely. In my view, there appears to be alot of back peddling by the bush administration regarding the reasons for pre-emptively invading Iraq. If I recall correctly, most all of the opponents to the war were in support of the ongoing inspections by Hans Blix and his team. I remember thinking "What's the rush?" Well, the "rush", according to Bush, was to get Saddam before he gave his weapons to his buddies in Al-Queda.

The main reason now appears to be Saddam's human rights atrocities. Some people I talk to think Saddam was still digging mass graves until just before we invaded. The only graves I have seen are 10+ years old. So I am left to wonder, with no impending genocidal doom, no WMD, and no 9/11 ties, Bush has crapped out in a big way here. The common thought, even among my more conservative freinds, was that no WMD would really hurt Bush's re-election chances. That appears to be the case for now.

I am also really shocked to see how much the US actually knew about Saddam's atrocities and what little was done to stop them as they were occuring. This information, and there appears to be a good deal of it, goes beyond just looking the other way. The US was actually supplying Saddam with intelligence, loans, and dual-purpose equipment like helicopters (which were actually used to gas the Kurds!!). I am still sorting through this body of evidence, but it appears that the US will have a ton of explaining to do when Saddam goes to trial. I wouldn't be suprised if the new Iraqi government names the US accomplices.

This is all just my opinion anyway. It will be interesting to see how all of this ends up.


-Bam
 
The "new" David Kay spin is that it was GWB that was "reasonably" misled by his subordinates. Reckon' how far that bullshit will last amongst reasonably interested/educated Americans?

Saddam was no longer even a threat to his own people much less to the rest of us. That has also been ascertained by this extensive and expensive war and investigative endeavor. Thousands of innocent Iraqi dead and more than 500 innocent American dead doesn't sit well with most Americans including those of us that call ourselves veterans and base party members. Can you dig it?
 
Originally posted by Psychoblues
The "new" David Kay spin is that it was GWB that was "reasonably" misled by his subordinates. Reckon' how far that bullshit will last amongst reasonably interested/educated Americans?

Saddam was no longer even a threat to his own people much less to the rest of us. That has also been ascertained by this extensive and expensive war and investigative endeavor. Thousands of innocent Iraqi dead and more than 500 innocent American dead doesn't sit well with most Americans including those of us that call ourselves veterans and base party members. Can you dig it?

Laughable. The "new spin" still does include the fact that Saddam was in the middle of developing a ricin program. Kay's report did mention that terrorists passed through Iraq often, and that it would have been easy to pass said ricin along in Iraq.

As far as Saddam non longer being a threat to his own people, I think your definition of threat must be radically different than mine. I have read several statements from Iraqis who lived under his rule that attest to Saddam's imprisonment of anyone who questioned his government's decisions, his imprisonment, rape and torture of family members of said dissenters, and his sadistic sons' behavior. Not to mention his use of chemical weapons against the Kurds. Can you honestly call that "not a threat?"

Over 500 Americans dead - including several friends of mine - is not a fun price to pay. However, I am convinced that we did the morally correct thing.

Can you dig it?
 
I can dig that you think of the Iragi war as a "moral" thing to do. That's about as far as I can go with that other than to ask, "How is WAR moral?"

Sometimes you have to dig deep into your own heart to justify aggressive action. Defense requires a lesser depth. My submission is that GWB PLAYED upon deeper emotion than was/is justified in this "WAR". I think it's there where YOU fail to "dig it", gop_jeff. But maybe that goes a little beyond your cognitive abilities?
 
Originally posted by Psychoblues
I can dig that you think of the Iragi war as a "moral" thing to do. That's about as far as I can go with that other than to ask, "How is WAR moral?"

Sometimes you have to dig deep into your own heart to justify aggressive action. Defense requires a lesser depth. My submission is that GWB PLAYED upon deeper emotion than was/is justified in this "WAR". I think it's there where YOU fail to "dig it", gop_jeff. But maybe that goes a little beyond your cognitive abilities?

My cognitive abilities are documented, Psycho. I have no need to defend them.

So, how is war moral, you ask. Here is a web link that will educate you on Just War Theory.

"The principles of the justice of war are commonly held to be: having just cause, being declared by a proper authority, possessing right intention, having a reasonable chance of success, and the end being proportional to the means used. One can immediately detect that the principles are not wholly intrinsicist nor consequentialist--they invoke the concerns of both models. Whilst this provides just war theory with the advantage of flexibility, the lack of a strict ethical framework means that the principles themselves are open to broad interpretations."

Maybe you hold that no war is moral. That's fine. I hold that The Iraqi War was just based on the above principles.
1. Just Cause. I believe that the US-led coalition had just cause to fight the war to oust Saddam, in the way of a threat of WMD's (now known to be much less than previously thought, but a threat nonetheless), Saddam's treatment of his own people, and his flaunting of a dozen different UN resolutions, not to mention the probability of Saddam's involvement with terrorists like al-Qaeda, whom we were already at war with.
2. Declared by a proper authority. Some believe that the UN would be the only proper authority. I believe that the UN would never have declared war against a member country, and that the US, as the primary bill-payer and one of the chief architects of the UN, was justified in its actions, based on the justifications in paragraph one.
3. Right intention. I believe our intention was excellent. We were not out to annex Iraq. We were out to depose the then-leader of Iraq and establish a government with popular support in the country. We have done the first; we are well on the way to accomplishing the second.
4. Reasonable chance of success. Proven in 1991.
5. Ends proportionate to the means. I think we were fully within the realm of this criteria. We did not use WMD, even though there was a threat of chemical weapons being used against us. We went overboard attempting to keep civilians out of the crosshairs of our weapons.

I cannot look at the Iraq War any other way than to believe that it was just.
 
I could do a lot of pretty "quotes" here but I will spare the dial up types the time. Each of your numerical indicated reason's for war are absolutely laughable but here goes:

1. Despots are in abundance worldwide. China, North Korea, Syria, all over the continent of Africa, even in my opinion right here in the US. From the drug lords to the racial supremists I see no desperation for any true "war" against them. There must be some underlying principle involved in this war against Iraq, don't you think?

2. You fail to recognise the UN as being the entity that premised it's very existence. You also fail to mention that the US has failed to pay it's dues to the UN, as promised, for many years and millions of dollars. The UN continues it's operations despite our American failures to live up to what we have promised the organization. It's political, my friend.

3. Intent. You or I have no idea what the "intend" has been or what it might be in the future. From all indications, however, it appears that the "intent" was and is a world domination of resourses by Americans and American companies. Capitalism at it's best, or worst depending on the point of view. We do know of the stated by our CIC what the intent was. We know that to be false and a hoodwink.

4. The American military success in 1991 has no bearing whatsoever on this new declaration of "WAR". An army of unwilling and incompetent soldiers was readily defeated in 1991. This present "WAR" was and is not against anything like that one at all. How absolutely silly of you to reference that very episode in our history!!!!!!!!

5. I find this one hard to imagine that even a war supporter to defend. I suppose you think the vast weaponry used by American forces to not in some technical way be considered WMD? I've often said, Hawks, both the chicken and war type, are sick. You've proven my point.

In addition, the loss of one innocent or civilian life is justification enough for me to feel the way I do about war. I remain fairly well opposed to military deaths as well, but at least I can see the point and purpose for all that. I have reservations about your cognitive abilities concerning all that.
 
Originally posted by Psychoblues
1. Despots are in abundance worldwide. China, North Korea, Syria, all over the continent of Africa, even in my opinion right here in the US. From the drug lords to the racial supremists I see no desperation for any true "war" against them. There must be some underlying principle involved in this war against Iraq, don't you think?

You only attempted to rebut one of the justifications given. (And on that one - Syria, Sudan, and Zimbabwe do not pose a threat to the US as Iraq did, which is why we haven't attacked every dictator, as your line of reasoning would ask.) What about the fact that Saddam had a ricin manufactruring program, as cited in the Kay report, in violation of UN resolutions? What about the other UN resolutions that Saddam has flaunted? What about Saddam's dealing with terrorists?

2. You fail to recognise the UN as being the entity that premised it's very existence. You also fail to mention that the US has failed to pay it's dues to the UN, as promised, for many years and millions of dollars. The UN continues it's operations despite our American failures to live up to what we have promised the organization. It's political, my friend.

Whether or not the US has failed the UN is irrelevant. The US is still the correct entity to act upon threats to its citizens.

3. Intent. You or I have no idea what the "intend" has been or what it might be in the future. From all indications, however, it appears that the "intent" was and is a world domination of resourses by Americans and American companies. Capitalism at it's best, or worst depending on the point of view. We do know of the stated by our CIC what the intent was. We know that to be false and a hoodwink.

:tinfoil: It was all about the oil!!!!! :tinfoil:

I do know what the intent was, because President Bush told us the intent from the outset: to topple Saddam's regime and to make Iraq a democracy. And if it really was all about the oil, or profits, or whatever you claim it was, why is the Bush administration adamant about keeping oil profits inside the country of Iraq? Why aren't all the oil companies drilling away?

4. The American military success in 1991 has no bearing whatsoever on this new declaration of "WAR". An army of unwilling and incompetent soldiers was readily defeated in 1991. This present "WAR" was and is not against anything like that one at all. How absolutely silly of you to reference that very episode in our history!!!!!!!!

If we are talking about a reasonable chance of success, it is perfectly reasonable to base our planning in 2003 on our performance against the same army in 1991.

5. I find this one hard to imagine that even a war supporter to defend. I suppose you think the vast weaponry used by American forces to not in some technical way be considered WMD? I've often said, Hawks, both the chicken and war type, are sick. You've proven my point.

"Some technical way"... Weapons of Mass Destruction are defined as Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical weapons. We did not use them. That is my "technical way" of thinking that what we used was not WMD. We did have overwhelming firepower... but that's one of the things you want in war, so that you can win. And our technology was more often than not used to make surgical strikes, ensuring that the lowest number of civilians possible were harmed.

In addition, the loss of one innocent or civilian life is justification enough for me to feel the way I do about war. I remain fairly well opposed to military deaths as well, but at least I can see the point and purpose for all that. I have reservations about your cognitive abilities concerning all that.

I don't like losing life to war any more than you do. I think that if you looked at the execution of the Iraqi War with unbiased eyes, you will find that the US went out of its way to keep civilians out of the line of fire.
 
gop_jeff, as much as I love you and appreciate your point of view I somehow fail to see any justification for it other than to take it as a lockstep follower of the GWB doctrine. I did my duty under Richard Nixon. I did not question it. I further did my duty under Ronald Reagan. I did not question it. I did my duty under GHWB. I was only beginning to question, I guess that goes with experience and age, but I did my duty and was fortunate to come back home relatively intact.

Your entire response to my original statement is opinionated and opinionated without qualification, as far as I am concerned. The USMB is not a newscast but a place for Americans to come and express their feelings, elations and disappointments, and invite commentary on the same. Sorry, jeff, but I require a more American stance and that is accurate news and depiction of circumstances and public discourse of known "FACTS". I leave the spin to admitted pundits and otherwise entertainers.

Psychoblues is having a GREAT DAY and a pretty damn good NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! I deserve one, don't you think?
 
Jeff, While your documented definition of 'just war' will work fine for heads of state, military commanders, and parliamentary leaders and their followers, theres one part of it that everyone should have issue with the way the Iraq war was fought.


5. Ends proportionate to the means. I think we were fully within the realm of this criteria. We did not use WMD, even though there was a threat of chemical weapons being used against us. We went overboard attempting to keep civilians out of the crosshairs of our weapons.

two words come to mind that completely refute this statement....'Shock and Awe'. :blowup:
 
Originally posted by Psychoblues
Psychoblues is having a GREAT DAY and a pretty damn good NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! I deserve one, don't you think?

I think so, just as soon as you show us the facts that you spoke of. You condemn Jeff for being opinionated and that's nothing different than what your post was.

I think Jeff is just as qualified as you to voice his opinion.
 
Originally posted by DKSuddeth
two words come to mind that completely refute this statement....'Shock and Awe'.

That would be a good point, only if you could make the relation between that statement and the killing of civilians.

I'm quite confident the shock and awe was directed and aimed at Saddam, his regime, terrorists & insurgents.
 
To DK and Bam, have you remotely thought of what you are leading a possible democrat leader into if he should be elected? What if there are serious threats out there? I mean there is no way a 9/11 could happen again, right? You are hamstringing anyone who might take over from GW, not that I think he'll lose, but what if?
 
Originally posted by jimnyc
That would be a good point, only if you could make the relation between that statement and the killing of civilians.

I'm quite confident the shock and awe was directed and aimed at Saddam, his regime, terrorists & insurgents.

I'm sure that they were aimed at the bad guys and not civilians with every possible intention of being that way but we've seen and heard the damage reports of missed bombs and missiles, hell one ended up in Iran, so while we relied on technology to attempt avoidance of civilians it didn't work that way. Going overboard to protect the civilians would have been to keep 'shock and awe' from happening and using more mobile ground forces with better lines of sight.
 
Originally posted by Kathianne
To DK and Bam, have you remotely thought of what you are leading a possible democrat leader into if he should be elected? What if there are serious threats out there? I mean there is no way a 9/11 could happen again, right? You are hamstringing anyone who might take over from GW, not that I think he'll lose, but what if?

are you implying that there is no democratic or independent candidate that can meet the threats that are out there?
 

Forum List

Back
Top