Hamas leader: Nations are recognizing Palestinian state due to ‘fruits of October 7’

[toomuchtime_]

Responses must be measured. You don't shoot someone because they bumped into you on a line.


I suspect they support Hamas because no one else is fighting for them. I suspect they'd prefer a real peace to endless war.

So you equate the murders of 1200 random Israelis and the continuing systematic torture and murders of hundreds of Israeli hostages with someone bumping into you in line?

"Responses must be measured" is a ridiculous thing to say. Israel's response to the Oct 7 massacre, which continues even today in the torture and murders of Israeli hostages, was not to inflict pain on the Palestinians but to make sure Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist gangs can never do that again, and it is impossible to destroy the terrorists without going into Gaza and seeking them out even as they hide among the civilian population which, by the way, overwhelmingly supported the Oct 7 atrocities. Israel has meticulously followed International Humanitarian Law, also known as the Rules of War, to protect the civilian population in times of war, but it is impossible to prevent civilians from being caught in the crossfire when the terrorists are hiding among them.

It makes no sense to say Hamas is fighting for the Palestinians since in regard to Israel, Hamas is the Palestinians and the Palestinians are Hamas. So what is Hamas fighting for? In all of its documents, Hamas asserts its goal is the destruction of Israel and there is no dissent among the Palestinian civilian population to that goal. There is clearly no rational basis for suspecting the Palestinians want peace with Israel.

Clearly you have strong feelings about what is going on in Gaza, but unless you examine the details of events, you cannot hope to have any understanding of it.

 

[Jroc]

The Israelis are still not living in peace so it is good they are used to it.

He lived in peace in Germany for quite some time till 6 million was sent to the gas Chambers

 

[HikerGuy83]

My butt is fine. I try to be in the 1%, how about you?

I don't care.

 

[gipper]

What claim did I make that was a lie?

Lol. You know full well.

You are exactly like a Hitler Nazi.

 

[rosends]

Lol. You know full well.

You are exactly like a Hitler Nazi.

if you can't tell me, then how can I ever improve? Just show me -- link to it or quote it or provide a message number and I'll look it up.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Ever ask yourself why Muslims and Jews lived together in peace for over a millennium? Until now. What changed? Judaism, Islam, or the geopolitics of the Middle East?

Where did you ever get the idea Muslims and Jews lived together in peace? Jews have always been a conquered persecuted people in Muslim lands.

"From the early years of Islamic civilization, Muslim jurists, basing on Qur’anic directives, devised an elaborate hierarchy in which monotheistic non-Muslims, such as Christians and Jews, would be “protected” at a low level and tolerated as second-class citizens. Guidelines for their treatment were embodied in the “Pact of ‘Umar.” Limitations on the status of non-Muslims included discriminatory clothing regulations and occupational restrictions. Non-Muslims were required to pay a poll tax (jizya) as well as discriminatory taxes on agricultural produce."

“Ornament of the World” and the Jews of Spain

At times tolerant, at other times intensely intolerant, Spain’s intergroup relations formed a fragile coexistence of Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Although often tenuous, the coexistence of diverse languages, peoples, and religions produced an extraordinary symbiosis and distinctive...

www.neh.gov

Under the law in the Ottoman Empire, Jews were still defined as second class citizens subject to special laws and taxes, but when Britain took over, these laws were changed, and Jews and Muslims were held to the same laws. The Muslims who had all been taught by their culture, their religion and their laws since the 7th century to hate Jews and hold them to an inferior status were outraged and from the summer of 1920 on attacked Jews whenever ever they could, even chasing them from communities that had existed since biblical times.

Ever wonder why Muslims who are engaged in wars among themselves in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and elsewhere take such a passionate interest in the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel? It is because Israel is Jewish and it is outrageous to Muslims that Jews should have the same status and rights as Muslims.

 

[Jroc]

Lol. You know full well.

You are exactly like a Hitler Nazi.

Look gripper people are free to leave gaza but Egypt won't let them ...Hamas won't them ...Israel pulled out every Jew from Gaza so they could build a functioning arab society there.. no Jews allowed they had hundreds of billions of dollars in aid which the leaders of the terrorist scum became billionaires... they used what they got to build tunnels and funded terrorism they didn't build a normal functioning society ... The problem with you idiots you have no facts you I just repeat stupid doing fed talking points

 

[ShahdagMountains]

‘Never again’ did they say?

What happened to that?

 

[alang1216]

So you equate the murders of 1200 random Israelis and the continuing systematic torture and murders of hundreds of Israeli hostages with someone bumping into you in line?

What happened and is happening to those Israelis is tragic but I'm not sure the lives of 1200 Israelis equal the lives of 60,000 Gazans.

"Responses must be measured" is a ridiculous thing to say. Israel's response to the Oct 7 massacre, which continues even today in the torture and murders of Israeli hostages, was not to inflict pain on the Palestinians but to make sure Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist gangs can never do that again, and it is impossible to destroy the terrorists without going into Gaza and seeking them out even as they hide among the civilian population which, by the way, overwhelmingly supported the Oct 7 atrocities. Israel has meticulously followed International Humanitarian Law, also known as the Rules of War, to protect the civilian population in times of war, but it is impossible to prevent civilians from being caught in the crossfire when the terrorists are hiding among them.

Opinions on Israel's conduct of the war vary:

Israel has also engaged in the collective punishment of Gaza’s population through cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel. This is a war crime, as is willfully blocking humanitarian relief from reaching civilians in need.​

​

It makes no sense to say Hamas is fighting for the Palestinians since in regard to Israel, Hamas is the Palestinians and the Palestinians are Hamas. So what is Hamas fighting for? In all of its documents, Hamas asserts its goal is the destruction of Israel and there is no dissent among the Palestinian civilian population to that goal. There is clearly no rational basis for suspecting the Palestinians want peace with Israel.

Except the Palestinians in the West Bank did want peace. It has not worked out well for them so the Gazans may be more leery of dealing with Israel.

Clearly you have strong feelings about what is going on in Gaza, but unless you examine the details of events, you cannot hope to have any understanding of it.

Many who are sympathetic to Israel have felt betrayed by their actions in Gaza. Me for one.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Many who are sympathetic to Israel have felt betrayed by their actions in Gaza. Me for one.

Make a suggestion.

 

[alang1216]

Where did you ever get the idea Muslims and Jews lived together in peace? Jews have always been a conquered persecuted people in Muslim lands.

"From the early years of Islamic civilization, Muslim jurists, basing on Qur’anic directives, devised an elaborate hierarchy in which monotheistic non-Muslims, such as Christians and Jews, would be “protected” at a low level and tolerated as second-class citizens. Guidelines for their treatment were embodied in the “Pact of ‘Umar.” Limitations on the status of non-Muslims included discriminatory clothing regulations and occupational restrictions. Non-Muslims were required to pay a poll tax (jizya) as well as discriminatory taxes on agricultural produce."

“Ornament of the World” and the Jews of Spain

At times tolerant, at other times intensely intolerant, Spain’s intergroup relations formed a fragile coexistence of Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Although often tenuous, the coexistence of diverse languages, peoples, and religions produced an extraordinary symbiosis and distinctive...

www.neh.gov

Under the law in the Ottoman Empire, Jews were still defined as second class citizens subject to special laws and taxes, but when Britain took over, these laws were changed, and Jews and Muslims were held to the same laws. The Muslims who had all been taught by their culture, their religion and their laws since the 7th century to hate Jews and hold them to an inferior status were outraged and from the summer of 1920 on attacked Jews whenever ever they could, even chasing them from communities that had existed since biblical times.

Ever wonder why Muslims who are engaged in wars among themselves in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and elsewhere take such a passionate interest in the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel? It is because Israel is Jewish and it is outrageous to Muslims that Jews should have the same status and rights as Muslims.

Were Jews treated any worse by Muslims than they were by Christians? When Christians expelled Jews they were accepted in Muslim countries. Christians also had restrictions on what Jews could own, ghettos, crusades, pogroms, and, of course, a holocaust.

 

[gipper]

Look gripper people are free to leave gaza but Egypt won't let them ...Hamas won't them ...Israel pulled out every Jew from Gaza so they could build a functioning arab society there.. no Jews allowed they had hundreds of billions of dollars in aid which the leaders of the terrorist scum became billionaires... they used what they got to build tunnels and funded terrorism they didn't build a normal functioning society ... The problem with you idiots you have no facts you I just repeat stupid doing fed talking points

Lol. You clearly know very little.

Why are you supporting genocide?

SHUT OFF FOX NEWS!!!

 

[toomuchtime_]

Were Jews treated any worse by Muslims than they were by Christians? When Christians expelled Jews they were accepted in Muslim countries. Christians also had restrictions on what Jews could own, ghettos, crusades, pogroms, and, of course, a holocaust.

Irrelevant. My post was in response to your claim Jews and Muslims had always lived in peace until recently, but clearly they hadn't. The point is, the current conflict stems entirely from a continuation of the same attitudes among Muslims that kept Jews in Muslim lands as a persecuted minority for 1400 years. If you want to argue that the Holocaust stemmed from similar attitudes toward Jews among Christians, I would agree with you, but it is irrelevant to the conflict in the ME.

 

[Jroc]

Lol. You clearly know very little.

Why are you supporting genocide?

SHUT OFF FOX NEWS!!!

Facts little man learn them...stupid little terp

 

[Shusha]

What happened and is happening to those Israelis is tragic but I'm not sure the lives of 1200 innocent civilian Israelis and 1000 IDF soldiers equal the lives of 60,000 25,000 non-combatant civilians and 35,000 combatant Gazans.

This is a narrow, tit-for-tat view. Wars are not fought with the intent of equalizing the number of dead on each side.

Israel has determined that the government of Gaza - Hamas - intends to commit further invasions and atrocities on the citizens of Israel in the future. Israel has made this determination by the fact that Hamas has clearly and repeatedly and publicly said so. Israel has an obligation as a sovereign nation to protect her citizens from invasion and attack. This is the goal of the war: to prevent all future invasions and attacks from Gaza's current government by dismantling that government, demilitarizing the territory, and asserting overall security control. The goal of the war is to prevent an unknown number of future Israeli deaths. Many in Israel believe that this is an existential threat, not only to Israel, but to the Jewish people as a whole. These are morally and legally sound goals.

The conditions of this war were set by Hamas. They created the arena of war. This arena includes a vast tunnel system; weapons caches in civilian homes; command centers inside, under, or in the vicinity of protected places; booby-trapping buildings; fighting from within civilian crowds; lack of distinctive uniforms; hostage-taking; use of children in combatant roles; among other things. War crimes and crimes against humanity. These crimes are intended to restrict the IDF's legal and moral conduct of the war and to bring harm upon the people of Gaza with intent to bring international condemnation on Israel and end the war prematurely. The numbers of dead in Gaza are a direct and immediate result of the crimes committed by Hamas.

 

[toomuchtime_]

What happened and is happening to those Israelis is tragic but I'm not sure the lives of 1200 Israelis equal the lives of 60,000 Gazans.


Opinions on Israel's conduct of the war vary:

Israel has also engaged in the collective punishment of Gaza’s population through cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel. This is a war crime, as is willfully blocking humanitarian relief from reaching civilians in need.​

​

Except the Palestinians in the West Bank did want peace. It has not worked out well for them so the Gazans may be more leery of dealing with Israel.


Many who are sympathetic to Israel have felt betrayed by their actions in Gaza. Me for one.

Churchill once said, Democracy is the worst system except for all the others, meaning one cannot properly judge an action or a system without examining the alternatives. There simply is no effective alternative to the way Israel is conducting the war if Israel is to protect itself from future attacks from the Gaza terrorists. While you may find the consequences of war unacceptable, clearly the Palestinians don't since they continue to refuse to end the war by releasing the hostages and disarming.

There is no collective punishment and Israel has committed no war crimes. Much of the hardship in Gaza are the result of unavoidable damage to the infrastructure and ensuing chaos and the rest is the result of Israel trying to prevent Hamas and the other terrorist gangs from benefiting from aid delivery.

International Humanitarian Law allows either side to prevent aid from reaching the opposing army. Given the extravagantly inefficient system of aid delivering it was impossible to prevent Hamas from receiving aid without also slowing down deliveries to civilians. Even so, Israel cut off aid only two times, when the ground operation in Gaza began because it was simply too dangerous to allow trucks to go back and forth through active battle zones and more recently when the new system of aid delivery through the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation was replacing the UN and World Food Program.

There was no collective punishment because Israel's action were not directed at the civilian population but only at Hamas and the other Gaza terrorists, and there are no war crimes because a war crime is a specific action by a particular individual and the term has only propaganda value when applied to a nation.

Again you tell me you liked Israelis when they were being slaughtered on Oct 7, but you don't like them when they fight back.

 

[Jroc]

Churchill once said, Democracy is the worst system except for all the others, meaning one cannot properly judge an action or a system without examining the alternatives. There simply is no effective alternative to the way Israel is conducting the war if Israel is to protect itself from future attacks from the Gaza terrorists. While you may find the consequences of war unacceptable, clearly the Palestinians don't since they continue to refuse to end the war by releasing the hostages and disarming.

There is no collective punishment and Israel has committed no war crimes. Much of the hardship in Gaza are the result of unavoidable damage to the infrastructure and ensuing chaos and the rest is the result of Israel trying to prevent Hamas and the other terrorist gangs from benefiting from aid delivery.

International Humanitarian Law allows either side to prevent aid from reaching the opposing army. Given the extravagantly inefficient system of aid delivering it was impossible to prevent Hamas from receiving aid without also slowing down deliveries to civilians. Even so, Israel cut off aid only two times, when the ground operation in Gaza began because it was simply too dangerous to allow trucks to go back and forth through active battle zones and more recently when the new system of aid delivery through the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation was replacing the UN and World Food Program.

There was no collective punishment because Israel's action were not directed at the civilian population but only at Hamas and the other Gaza terrorists, and there are no war crimes because a war crime is a specific action by a particular individual and the term has only propaganda value when applied to a nation.

Again you tell me you liked Israelis when they were being slaughtered on Oct 7, but you don't like them when they fight back.

People are more comfortable with Jews being weak and vulnerable

 

[alang1216]

Irrelevant. My post was in response to your claim Jews and Muslims had always lived in peace until recently, but clearly they hadn't. The point is, the current conflict stems entirely from a continuation of the same attitudes among Muslims that kept Jews in Muslim lands as a persecuted minority for 1400 years. If you want to argue that the Holocaust stemmed from similar attitudes toward Jews among Christians, I would agree with you, but it is irrelevant to the conflict in the ME.

Most minorities are treated as second-class citizens. I live near a posh country club and they still do not admit Jews as members.

 

[alang1216]

This is a narrow, tit-for-tat view. Wars are not fought with the intent of equalizing the number of dead on each side.

Israel has determined that the government of Gaza - Hamas - intends to commit further invasions and atrocities on the citizens of Israel in the future. Israel has made this determination by the fact that Hamas has clearly and repeatedly and publicly said so. Israel has an obligation as a sovereign nation to protect her citizens from invasion and attack. This is the goal of the war: to prevent all future invasions and attacks from Gaza's current government by dismantling that government, demilitarizing the territory, and asserting overall security control. The goal of the war is to prevent an unknown number of future Israeli deaths. Many in Israel believe that this is an existential threat, not only to Israel, but to the Jewish people as a whole. These are morally and legally sound goals.

The conditions of this war were set by Hamas. They created the arena of war. This arena includes a vast tunnel system; weapons caches in civilian homes; command centers inside, under, or in the vicinity of protected places; booby-trapping buildings; fighting from within civilian crowds; lack of distinctive uniforms; hostage-taking; use of children in combatant roles; among other things. War crimes and crimes against humanity. These crimes are intended to restrict the IDF's legal and moral conduct of the war and to bring harm upon the people of Gaza with intent to bring international condemnation on Israel and end the war prematurely. The numbers of dead in Gaza are a direct and immediate result of the crimes committed by Hamas.

There has been a continuous spiral of violence since 1948 and even earlier. Drawing an arbitrary line and saying history began at that line is disingenuous at best.

 

[Shusha]

There has been a continuous spiral of violence since 1948 and even earlier. Drawing an arbitrary line and saying history began at that line is disingenuous at best.

It was you who brought up October 7 in your post as a tit-for-tat comparison of numbers of dead.

Failing to respond to the content of my post is disingenuous. I am genuinely interested in your response.