Hamas Leader Killed

[Coyote]

The pagers ended up targeting the civilians as much as Hezbollah.

As much as? Tell me more.

Tell you more what?

It was so carelessly done they may as well have openly targeted the civilians.

How carelessly was it done? Post the number of Hezbollah terrorists killed and injured and the number of civilians killed and injured.

I don’t have those exact numbers however many exploded out in public areas in the close vicinity of innocent people.

There is a convincing argument that it violated international law:

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/g-s1-23812/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-international-law

A group of United Nations human rights experts called the simultaneous explosions “terrifying” violations of international law. “To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities."

And Jessica Peake, an international law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, told The Intercept that "detonating pagers in people’s pockets without any knowledge of where those are, in that moment, is a pretty evident indiscriminate attack,” and that the attacks were — in her view — "quite blatant, both violations of both proportionality and indiscriminate attacks.”

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Tell you more what?




I don’t have those exact numbers however many exploded out in public areas in the close vicinity of innocent people.

There is a convincing argument that it violated international law:

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/g-s1-23812/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-international-law

A group of United Nations human rights experts called the simultaneous explosions “terrifying” violations of international law. “To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities."

And Jessica Peake, an international law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, told The Intercept that "detonating pagers in people’s pockets without any knowledge of where those are, in that moment, is a pretty evident indiscriminate attack,” and that the attacks were — in her view — "quite blatant, both violations of both proportionality and indiscriminate attacks.”

Tell you more what?

Post your evidence that it targeted civilians as much as it targeted Hezbollah.

I don’t have those exact numbers

You were ignorant or you were lying?

There is a convincing argument that it violated international law:

An argument by Hezbollah?

at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device

They knew they were bought by Hezbollah to be used by Hezbollah.

at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby

Obviously.

"detonating pagers in people’s pockets without any knowledge of where those are, in that moment, is a pretty evident indiscriminate attack,

It was very targeted.

"quite blatant, both violations of both proportionality and indiscriminate attacks.”

Proportionality? How's that?

 

[Shusha]

I don’t have those exact numbers however many exploded out in public areas in the close vicinity of innocent people.

There is a convincing argument that it violated international law:

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/g-s1-23812/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-international-law

A group of United Nations human rights experts called the simultaneous explosions “terrifying” violations of international law. “To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities."

And Jessica Peake, an international law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, told The Intercept that "detonating pagers in people’s pockets without any knowledge of where those are, in that moment, is a pretty evident indiscriminate attack,” and that the attacks were — in her view — "quite blatant, both violations of both proportionality and indiscriminate attacks.”

IIRC, there were twelve deaths, two were civilians.

From your link: "The operation passes all fundamental laws of war necessity, proportionality, and distinction," John Spencer, chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, told Newsweek. "It was a very precise sabotage of an enemy piece of equipment used for military purposes."

 

[Shusha]

...is a pretty evident indiscriminate attack...

There is absolutely no way a reasonable person could view these attacks as indiscriminate. These devices were not random civilian objects picked up at the marketplace by random civilians. They were purchased by Hezbollah to be distributed specifically to members of Hezbollah and specifically for use in military operations. The devices are not the type of item that is multi-purpose, shared, or lent to others. One does not page John with the reasonable expectation that you will instead get a reply from John's daughter who has borrowed Daddy's "work" pager to take to school. One pages John to communicate with John.

In fact, I can't conceive of an operation which is more discriminate (targeted) than this one. The only people who would have access to these devices and would be wearing them on their person and responding to encrypted messages received on them would be the specific members of Hezbollah who were part of the military (terrorist) communications team which received this exact shipment of pagers, which was sent from Mossad manufacture through a Mossad shell sales company directly to Hezbollah for distribution.

 

[Shusha]

Collateral damage. You guys love that word don’t? It’s, it can can cover a whole host of things and removes all culpability or accountability from your actions.

This isn't a fair or reasonable response.

The STANDARD in the laws of war is that "collateral damage" / incidental harm is expected in military operations. Period. End of.

The fact of incidental harm is not an indicator of "culpability or accountability".

The pagers ended up targeting the civilians as much as Hezbollah. It was so carelessly done they may as well have openly targeted the civilians.

We have a disagreement of objective facts here which needs to be addressed before we can discuss legal or moral issues. The facts, as I understand them:

• Of the 5000 pagers that were distributed, about 3000 resulted in explosions which produced injuries.
• About 2500 detonations resulted in minor injuries.
• About 500 detonations resulted in serious injuries (defined as requiring surgery).
• There were 12 fatalities (including two children).
• There have been no reported injuries in those not holding or wearing the pager. Despite detonation in public areas, only those in possession of the targeted devices were injured.
• The overwhelming majority of those injured or killed in this operation were Hezbollah operatives of a high enough level to be included in this particular communications circle.

Addressing the issue of "careless":

• It appears that Mossad has been considering an operation such as this since at least 2020.
• Mossad set up an entirely false shell company to move the devices from the legitimate manufacturer to their own control for insertion of the explosive device and delivery to the specific buyer (Hezbollah).
• Intelligence received by Mossad indicated that these pagers were explicitly to be delivered to about 5000 Hezbollah operatives who were in the top fifth of the communication channel.
• The explosive charge was measured.
• The military advantage of completely disrupting the top level of communication in Hezbollah is significant.
• The military advantage of forcing Hezbollah to meet in person for on-going communications which creates viable targets of high-level Hezbollah operatives is significant.
• The military advantage of disabling a high number of higher level operatives is significant.
• The was a reasonable expectation that every one of these 5000 pagers would be distributed to Hezbollah operatives and that these pagers would be in their possession at the time of the operation.
• The pagers could be operated normally indefinitely. A specific encrypted message was the triggering factor. Meaning Israel could control the timing and extent of the operation.

"Careless" is the furthest thing that this was.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Pardon me while I laugh. If an Israeli in the IDF commits a crime, we standard messaging “this does not represent our values” blah blah blah. Then nothing. If an Israeli Jew commits a crime against a Palestinian … what happens?

Here is what DOESN’t happen.
There is no massive raid of their settlements.
There are no mass detentions.
Minors (12 year olds) do not get detained.
They don’t get shot for throwing rocks at the IDF.
Their homes don’t get bulldozed.

Here is what DOES happen:
They are afforded their full civil rights guaranteed under the civil law including legal representation rather than the military justice system.
The IDF has been known to assist them in their violence or refuse to stop them.
Israel’s political leadership supports their violence and bills them new settlements.

Now blather on about antisemitism.




Is your only argument a “but look at what they do” justification? Meh.

By the way…you do realize Israeli settlers celebrate the violence committed on Palestinians right?


Everything that doesn’t toe the strict pro-Israel line is now labeled “anti-semitic”. Congratulations. You turned a word that used to mean something horrible into an empty accusation to shut up any opposition to your narratives.

Collateral damage. You guys love that word don’t? It’s, it can can cover a whole host of things and removes all culpability or accountability from your actions.

The exploding pagers was an act of terrorism injuring numerous innocent bystanders and terrifying the entire civilian population. Great job, you are now justifying terrorism just like a terrorist does!


Blah blah blah antisemite antisemite antisemite. The pagers ended up targeting the civilians as much as Hezbollah. It was so carelessly done they may as well have openly targeted the civilians.

It spread terror. It was indiscriminate.

Ok, you are a proud antisemite, and you call telling lies about Israel and Israelis criticism. At least you are no longer pretending to be a reasonable poster.

When an Israeli, Jewish or not, commits a crime against a Palestinian, he or she is arrested, tried and if found guilty punished. If he or she is on active military duty, he or she is tried in military court, otherwise in a civilian court, and without fail racist nutjobs like you will try to characterize all Israelis as guilty of the crime of one or a few.

Were you a rational person, you would understand the difference between target deaths and collateral damage, and that International Humanitarian Law condemns targeting civilians but allows that collateral damage to civilians is not a crime if certain steps are followed. If you don't understand what collateral damage means you can't possibly have any understanding of Internationa Humanitarian Law or what the term, war crime, means.

Since the exploding pagers all went to Hezbollah members and carried only a small charge there is no way a rational person could conclude they targeted civilians. A reasonable person would have noted that the exploding pagers came after 7 months of entirely unprovoked daily bombing of Israeli farms and villages by Hezbollah all of which constituted war crimes since they all targeted civilians.

 

[Lisa558]

Tell you more what?




I don’t have those exact numbers however many exploded out in public areas in the close vicinity of innocent people.

There is a convincing argument that it violated international law:

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/g-s1-23812/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-international-law

A group of United Nations human rights experts called the simultaneous explosions “terrifying” violations of international law. “To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities."

And Jessica Peake, an international law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, told The Intercept that "detonating pagers in people’s pockets without any knowledge of where those are, in that moment, is a pretty evident indiscriminate attack,” and that the attacks were — in her view — "quite blatant, both violations of both proportionality and indiscriminate attacks.”

You’re listening to what the UN or some leftist professors says about Israel to inform your opinion? We already know both are anti-Israel, driven by their hostility toward Jews.

 

[Coyote]

Ok, you are a proud antisemite, and you call telling lies about Israel and Israelis criticism. At least you are no longer pretending to be a reasonable poster.

When an Israeli, Jewish or not, commits a crime against a Palestinian, he or she is arrested, tried and if found guilty punished. If he or she is on active military duty, he or she is tried in military court, otherwise in a civilian court, and without fail racist nutjobs like you will try to characterize all Israelis as guilty of the crime of one or a few.

Were you a rational person, you would understand the difference between target deaths and collateral damage, and that International Humanitarian Law condemns targeting civilians but allows that collateral damage to civilians is not a crime if certain steps are followed. If you don't understand what collateral damage means you can't possibly have any understanding of Internationa Humanitarian Law or what the term, war crime, means.

Since the exploding pagers all went to Hezbollah members and carried only a small charge there is no way a rational person could conclude they targeted civilians. A reasonable person would have noted that the exploding pagers came after 7 months of entirely unprovoked daily bombing of Israeli farms and villages by Hezbollah all of which constituted war crimes since they all targeted civilians.

I learned long ago that it is impossible to seriously discuss things with a person who will defend all things Israel and screech “antisemite” at those who don’t. You’ve been caught out lying before and just doubled down when presented with actual facts. Pardon me if I find your credibility as strained as your integrity.

Let’s pick apart arguments .

First, the claim they carried only “a small charge”. It was sufficient to kill people, including two children and seriously injure a large number of bystanders. I find that hard to reconcile with “small charges”.

Second, the diversional tactic of Hezbollah’s attacks on Israel. No one (or at least not me) is denying that Hezbollah is a problem, that Israel has right to defend and keep its citizens safe (not to mention no state would tolerate 60,000 of its citizens displaced internally due to attacks against civilian targets like that). In fact, no one is saying Hezbollah, a terrorist organization, is guilty of war crimes. You can put strawman to rest (or better yet just burn it). The fact Hezbollah has committed war crimes does not remove culpability from others.

Third, international law. I provided an article where experts in it provided their opinions. It isn’t “my understanding” of international law. I doubt you an expert any more than I am.

Fourth, target deaths and collateral damage (a word which scrubs the humanity from dead civilians, makes it acceptable somehow). At what point does the “collateral damage” become undifferentiated from the target”? I believe that is where rules regarding proportionality come into play.

Did Israel know where each target was when it set off the blasts?

Did they know how wide the blast area would be, who would be in range? Given the extent of “collateral” damage it would almost certainly be considered disproportionate in my opinion.

Did they know who would actually have it in hand? For example a child was killed holding one. Anyone could have been holding it. It could have been left on a table in a cafe. They could have been disseminated to uninvolved civilians and non combatants

Was it terrorism? It is hard to find a single definition of terrorism. This is one:

…criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism…[47]

I would argue it fits. If the extent of “collateral” damage outweighs damage to the target (militant) population then what material difference between targeting civilians and targeting militants? It is a big grey area and there are significant argue for either side.

Can expect a coherent reasonable argument from you or am I wasting my time?

 

[Coyote]

You’re listening to what the UN or some leftist professors says about Israel to inform your opinion? We already know both are anti-Israel, driven by their hostility toward Jews.

Blah blah blah. Thank you for your contribution.

 

[Coyote]

…

Tell you more what?

Post your evidence that it targeted civilians as much as it targeted Hezbollah.

I don’t have those exact numbers

You were ignorant or you were lying?

According to this:

The attacks reportedly killed at least 32 people and maimed or injured 3,250, including 200 critically. Among the dead are a boy and a girl, as well as medical personnel. Around 500 people suffered severe eye injuries, including a diplomat. Others suffered grave injuries to their faces, hands and bodies.

How many of those people were verified to be Hezbollah militants? You claim to know. I haven’t seen an exact breakdown.

There is a convincing argument that it violated international law:

An argument by Hezbollah?

Stupid reply since that was not what I linked to.

at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device

They knew they were bought by Hezbollah to be used by Hezbollah.

That doesn’t adress the issue.

at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby

Obviously.

"detonating pagers in people’s pockets without any knowledge of where those are, in that moment, is a pretty evident indiscriminate attack,

It was very targeted.

If you say so.

"quite blatant, both violations of both proportionality and indiscriminate attacks.”

Proportionality? How's that?

Look it up.

 

[Lisa558]

…

According to this:

The attacks reportedly killed at least 32 people and maimed or injured 3,250, including 200 critically. Among the dead are a boy and a girl, as well as medical personnel. Around 500 people suffered severe eye injuries, including a diplomat. Others suffered grave injuries to their faces, hands and bodies.

How many of those people were verified to be Hezbollah militants? You claim to know. I haven’t seen an exact breakdown.

Stupid reply since that was not what I linked to.




That doesn’t adress the issue.



If you say so.


Look it up.

Blah, blah, blah….more anti-Israel propaganda.

 

[Coyote]

This isn't a fair or reasonable response.

Strongly disagree.

The STANDARD in the laws of war is that "collateral damage" / incidental harm is expected in military operations. Period. End of.

The fact of incidental harm is not an indicator of "culpability or accountability".

True.

But when does it become a crime?

To use an exaggerated example to make a point: there is a low level military target in a location, we nuke it.

Millions dead, injured, etc.

Collateral damage?

At some point that term ceases to have a meaning.

We have a disagreement of objective facts here which needs to be addressed before we can discuss legal or moral issues. The facts, as I understand them:

• Of the 5000 pagers that were distributed, about 3000 resulted in explosions which produced injuries.
• About 2500 detonations resulted in minor injuries.
• About 500 detonations resulted in serious injuries (defined as requiring surgery).
• There were 12 fatalities (including two children).
• There have been no reported injuries in those not holding or wearing the pager. Despite detonation in public areas, only those in possession of the targeted devices were injured.
• The overwhelming majority of those injured or killed in this operation were Hezbollah operatives of a high enough level to be included in this particular communications circle.

I have read differing accounts.

According to this claim that I posted elsewhere:
The attacks reportedly killed at least 32 people and maimed or injured 3,250, including 200 critically. Among the dead are a boy and a girl, as well as medical personnel. Around 500 people suffered severe eye injuries, including a diplomat. Others suffered grave injuries to their faces, hands and bodies.

I have seen nothing verifying that the overwhelming majority of those injured were high level Hezbollah militants. I can accept that majority of those killed would have been.

Addressing the issue of "careless":

• It appears that Mossad has been considering an operation such as this since at least 2020.
• Mossad set up an entirely false shell company to move the devices from the legitimate manufacturer to their own control for insertion of the explosive device and delivery to the specific buyer (Hezbollah).
• Intelligence received by Mossad indicated that these pagers were explicitly to be delivered to about 5000 Hezbollah operatives who were in the top fifth of the communication channel.
• The explosive charge was measured.
• The military advantage of completely disrupting the top level of communication in Hezbollah is significant.
• The military advantage of forcing Hezbollah to meet in person for on-going communications which creates viable targets of high-level Hezbollah operatives is significant.
• The military advantage of disabling a high number of higher level operatives is significant.
• The was a reasonable expectation that every one of these 5000 pagers would be distributed to Hezbollah operatives and that these pagers would be in their possession at the time of the operation.
• The pagers could be operated normally indefinitely. A specific encrypted message was the triggering factor. Meaning Israel could control the timing and extent of the operation.

"Careless" is the furthest thing that this was.

Ok, now that is interesting and no, some of those points I was not aware of. However I still disagree that the military advantage outweighed the collateral damage. I might change my mind on further reflection though. I also admit it was brilliant.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I learned long ago that it is impossible to seriously discuss things with a person who will defend all things Israel and screech “antisemite” at those who don’t. You’ve been caught out lying before and just doubled down when presented with actual facts. Pardon me if I find your credibility as strained as your integrity.

Let’s pick apart arguments .

First, the claim they carried only “a small charge”. It was sufficient to kill people, including two children and seriously injure a large number of bystanders. I find that hard to reconcile with “small charges”.

Second, the diversional tactic of Hezbollah’s attacks on Israel. No one (or at least not me) is denying that Hezbollah is a problem, that Israel has right to defend and keep its citizens safe (not to mention no state would tolerate 60,000 of its citizens displaced internally due to attacks against civilian targets like that). In fact, no one is saying Hezbollah, a terrorist organization, is guilty of war crimes. You can put strawman to rest (or better yet just burn it). The fact Hezbollah has committed war crimes does not remove culpability from others.

Third, international law. I provided an article where experts in it provided their opinions. It isn’t “my understanding” of international law. I doubt you an expert any more than I am.

Fourth, target deaths and collateral damage (a word which scrubs the humanity from dead civilians, makes it acceptable somehow). At what point does the “collateral damage” become undifferentiated from the target”? I believe that is where rules regarding proportionality come into play.

Did Israel know where each target was when it set off the blasts?

Did they know how wide the blast area would be, who would be in range? Given the extent of “collateral” damage it would almost certainly be considered disproportionate in my opinion.

Did they know who would actually have it in hand? For example a child was killed holding one. Anyone could have been holding it. It could have been left on a table in a cafe. They could have been disseminated to uninvolved civilians and non combatants

Was it terrorism? It is hard to find a single definition of terrorism. This is one:

…criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism…[47]

I would argue it fits. If the extent of “collateral” damage outweighs damage to the target (militant) population then what material difference between targeting civilians and targeting militants? It is a big grey area and there are significant argue for either side.

Can expect a coherent reasonable argument from you or am I wasting my time?

In your demented state, you imagine you have caught me in a lie, antisemitism does not exist and collateral damage does not exist and any Arab civilian killed by IDF fire was deliberately targeted, never mind the armed terrorist standing next to him.

Despite your hysterical nonsense, there is no rational basis for claiming the civilians harmed by the exploding pagers were targeted. The charges were so small that most of the Hezbollah members carrying these pagers did not suffer serious injuries. In fact, the overall damage to Hezbollah members and civilians was small, but it did inspire panic among Hezbollah, Iran and all of Iran's Arab proxies in their endless war to try to destroy Israel.

 

[Lisa558]

In your demented state, you imagine you have caught me in a lie, antisemitism does not exist and collateral damage does not exist and any Arab civilian killed by IDF fire was deliberately targeted, never mind the armed terrorist standing next to him.

Despite your hysterical nonsense, there is no rational basis for claiming the civilians harmed by the exploding pagers were targeted. The charges were so small that most of the Hezbollah members carrying these pagers did not suffer serious injuries. In fact, the overall damage to Hezbollah members and civilians was small, but it did inspire panic among Hezbollah, Iran and all of Iran's Arab proxies in their endless war to try to destroy Israel.

The only innocent people specifically targeted in this entire conflict were the 1200 Jews tortured to death on October 7th by Muslim terrorists.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

…

According to this:

The attacks reportedly killed at least 32 people and maimed or injured 3,250, including 200 critically. Among the dead are a boy and a girl, as well as medical personnel. Around 500 people suffered severe eye injuries, including a diplomat. Others suffered grave injuries to their faces, hands and bodies.

How many of those people were verified to be Hezbollah militants? You claim to know. I haven’t seen an exact breakdown.

Stupid reply since that was not what I linked to.




That doesn’t adress the issue.



If you say so.


Look it up.

Thousands of pagers. Injured 3250?
Sounds like a very targeted operation.
What was a diplomat doing with a Hezbollah pager?

 

[Coyote]

Thousands of pagers. Injured 3250?
Sounds like a very targeted operation.
What was a diplomat doing with a Hezbollah pager?

Who said he had one? He could have been nearby.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Who said he had one? He could have been nearby.

Unlucky for a diplomat to be so close to a Hezbollah operative with a pager.

What were his injuries?

 

[Lisa558]

Unlucky for a diplomat to be so close to a Hezbollah operative with a pager.

What were his injuries?

And WHY would a diplomat be so close to a terrorist anyway?

 

[Coyote]

Unlucky for a diplomat to be so close to a Hezbollah operative with a pager.

Hezbollah is thoroughly within the general population. They aren’t just a militant entity. If diplomats are now fair targets just say so. Israel has targeted diplomatic posts and entities before (though I don’t think that was the case here). Collateral damage.

What were his injuries?

Why do you ask? Google it.

 

[Coyote]

And WHY would a diplomat be so close to a terrorist anyway?

They are within the general population. I seriously doubt they are wearing armbands saying “Hezbollah Militant”.