Gun Wisdom

[Dr Grump]

It is in the Outback. It is impossible to find a farm or a residence in the Outback without a firearm. When the ban first went into effect the Northern Territory declared it would not enforce the ban (you see during WWII the whole area was abandoned to the Japanese and the enemy made three landings in the Territory that were shot back into the ocean by civilians and what few military were there) those were dark days and theresidents don't forget that abandonment.

The road from Mount Isa to Tennant Creek was called the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all of the weapons heading north. You don't even know your own adopted country very well.

I'm actually trying to figure out what this post has to do with mine. I'm talking current crime trends, you're talking WWII....

No, I'm talking immediate post ban in Oz and giving it context for those who actually care about history.

I think you'll have a hard time finding people who actually care....and they were not abandoned at all. Darwin was bombed and that was the only incident of note...

 

[westwall]

I remember listening to is on the radio in New Zealand - and tv was switched off and midnight..(I'm a NZer who lived there for 40 years and have been living in Oz for 4..;o).

Where in NZed did you live? I was based out of Christchurch for two years (around 30 years ago) but spent most of my time over near Westport and Karamea. I still get Montieths shipped up to me by friends, though now I hear, it can be obtained in DC here because of the embassy there.

And as regards the song, I never stated it was banned, I said the video was.
In fact I just did a search on youtube and can't find it anywhere. I did find several "where can I find the banned video" messages however.

I also did a wiki search, as that seems to be the limit of research ability for most on here and the link is to that. According to wiki (allways a dubious idea) the song is still banned by the beeb.

"The music video for "Invisible Sun" features a collection of video clips taken from the conflict in Northern Ireland. Due to its subject matter, it was banned by the BBC.[2] "Invisible Sun" was also used as the opening music to the BBC 'Play for Today' film The Long March (1981), written by Belfast writer Anne Devlin."

Invisible Sun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, if you were in Christchurch, you would recognise that I was from Dorkland, or to us normal folk, Auckland...;o)
Still have a house there, and rent here, so staying here is not permenant yet, although our kids like it a lot.

Yep, it was banned by the beeb, just like God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols...

I had a good friend named Pat Bond who lived in North Shore, but sadly she passed away about 20 years ago. I used to go to Manukau City to go to a book store there called Redoubt Books. I have no idea if they are still there. I also had a friend who lived over on the Coromandel near Hot Water Beach. What a lovely place.

 

[westwall]

Australia is not even close to being 'devoid' of guns. It is devoid of a certain class/type of weapon. I can go and get a gun license tomorrow and get a gun if I so wish...

At the end of the day, it is such a non issue down here nobody gives a rats...

Please describe the process for buying a handgun, a self loading rifle, and a shotgun. BTW I had a Class C license (allowed to own but not shoot machine guns, we did that on the army ranges with our friends there, there's allways a way!) when I was in NZ so know the process in both countries quite well. I have a good friend who is still a gun dealer in Yorktown and we exchange emails weekly.

Not 100 percent about Oz, but in NZ you have to belong to a gun club to buy a hand gun and it has to be stored there. To buy a shotgun or rifle you have to have a firearms license. In order to get one of those you have to have backgrounds checks and sit a test whereby you have to have a pass rate of 85% (well it used to be that, not too sure now). How do I know? I was a cop in NZ and we had to do the test so we could use a firearm if we had to, even though we, as a rule, were not armed.

You're missing a couple of steps in NZ. I won't address Oz yet.

 

[Dr Grump]

Just ask Logic next time he's around where all this is leading to...once we get there, maybe you can join back in the convo if you're up to it...

If people do not have guns, they will use other weapons to murder. Can you understand that?
Good, now let's move on to the reasoning part....
If people do not have guns, the most ruthless, evil will have their way, because they will either murder those that do not go along with them or "torture" them. Is this making sense (Somalia)?
Therefore, if people have "guns", those that would normally do evil, are "persuaded" (even the most evil person is not willing to walk into a situation where they are most likely to be killed if they try to use force against others) to behave themselves.
Did you use your reason, do you understand, now?
Therefore, the more "good" people that have guns, the less the "bad" people will be likely to act on their evil intentions (many of the "bad" people will even become useful in society, if the "persuasion" is consistent enough.

And yet countries like NZ, Australia, Canada and those in Europe - where gun proliferation is negligible at best - don't believe in your Chicken Little scenario. Last time I looked NZ had a murder rate of 1.9 people per 100,000, the US 5.6 per 100,000. Have your guns made your society safer than mine with its lack of guns?

IOW, your argument doesn't stack up.

Somalia is bordering on Straw Man, in that you are comparing a country that has always been third world, to that of the US, which is far from being so. You don't appear to have a lot of faith in civlisation or your form of govt (the former I find amusing, the latter doesn't surprise me)...

 

[Dr Grump]

Please describe the process for buying a handgun, a self loading rifle, and a shotgun. BTW I had a Class C license (allowed to own but not shoot machine guns, we did that on the army ranges with our friends there, there's allways a way!) when I was in NZ so know the process in both countries quite well. I have a good friend who is still a gun dealer in Yorktown and we exchange emails weekly.

Not 100 percent about Oz, but in NZ you have to belong to a gun club to buy a hand gun and it has to be stored there. To buy a shotgun or rifle you have to have a firearms license. In order to get one of those you have to have backgrounds checks and sit a test whereby you have to have a pass rate of 85% (well it used to be that, not too sure now). How do I know? I was a cop in NZ and we had to do the test so we could use a firearm if we had to, even though we, as a rule, were not armed.

You're missing a couple of steps in NZ. I won't address Oz yet.

Well, it might have changed since it was 20 years ago I was in the police. That aside, I don't keep up with those issues becuase 1) They don't affect me; 2) it is not part of our national psyche as mentioned.

I am more worreid about health, taxes, roading, trade....

 

[logical4u]

I've always thought if you own a gun, you're scared...shrug...

That's what you get for thinking.

What's to be scared of if you have a gun?

You have the gun in the first place because you are scared. Without your gun you feel vulnerable. I do not own a gun, will never own a gun and never even think about having a gun. The only time guns are mentioned in my life are on chat boards with people from the US..

Different mind set and all....

I used to live in the country. I watched a man shoot a dog that had just attacked another person, and went after him when he went near the dog. It was a relief to see that dog die, didn't want to see anyone else attacked. I have shot varmits that were killing my domestic animals before. If there wasn't a gun, the varmit would have escaped to killl more animals. I been in bear country too. I packed when I went hiking or camping. I thought anyone that didn't pack was "stupid" (in bear country).
Your right, it is a different mind set. You aren't "scared" because you are "spoiled". All your life, you have lived in relative safety because other people were willing to stand up and defend you (along with themselves and their families); you have never had to get your hands "dirty" with death of another. I hope that you will be able to live the rest of your life that way. Unfortunately, watching the world, I think the violence will be coming more frequently to our doors. What will you do when they break in your door?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

If people do not have guns, they will use other weapons to murder. Can you understand that?
Good, now let's move on to the reasoning part....
If people do not have guns, the most ruthless, evil will have their way, because they will either murder those that do not go along with them or "torture" them. Is this making sense (Somalia)?
Therefore, if people have "guns", those that would normally do evil, are "persuaded" (even the most evil person is not willing to walk into a situation where they are most likely to be killed if they try to use force against others) to behave themselves.
Did you use your reason, do you understand, now?
Therefore, the more "good" people that have guns, the less the "bad" people will be likely to act on their evil intentions (many of the "bad" people will even become useful in society, if the "persuasion" is consistent enough.

And yet countries like NZ, Australia, Canada and those in Europe - where gun proliferation is negligible at best - don't believe in your Chicken Little scenario. Last time I looked NZ had a murder rate of 1.9 people per 100,000, the US 5.6 per 100,000. Have your guns made your society safer than mine with its lack of guns?

IOW, your argument doesn't stack up.

Somalia is bordering on Straw Man, in that you are comparing a country that has always been third world, to that of the US, which is far from being so. You don't appear to have a lot of faith in civlisation or your form of govt (the former I find amusing, the latter doesn't surprise me)...

If it hadn't been for the French underground the Germans would have been harder to defeat. If it hadn't been for the polish civilians fighting the germans would have been hard to defeat. and for those armed civilians in New Zealand and OZ land the Japs would have been hard to defeat

 

[Dr Grump]

That's what you get for thinking.

What's to be scared of if you have a gun?

You have the gun in the first place because you are scared. Without your gun you feel vulnerable. I do not own a gun, will never own a gun and never even think about having a gun. The only time guns are mentioned in my life are on chat boards with people from the US..

Different mind set and all....

I used to live in the country. I watched a man shoot a dog that had just attacked another person, and went after him when he went near the dog. It was a relief to see that dog die, didn't want to see anyone else attacked. I have shot varmits that were killing my domestic animals before. If there wasn't a gun, the varmit would have escaped to killl more animals. I been in bear country too. I packed when I went hiking or camping. I thought anyone that didn't pack was "stupid" (in bear country).
Your right, it is a different mind set. You aren't "scared" because you are "spoiled". All your life, you have lived in relative safety because other people were willing to stand up and defend you (along with themselves and their families); you have never had to get your hands "dirty" with death of another. I hope that you will be able to live the rest of your life that way. Unfortunately, watching the world, I think the violence will be coming more frequently to our doors. What will you do when they break in your door?

Honestly, you sound like a guy who is scared of life. You are always anticipating the worst case scenario. I couldn't live like that. Who has stood up and defended me? When? Who is going to break in my door? If there is an all out war, then that changes the game. I'm talking about living in a civilised, modern society. Things change, and when they do, you adapt..

I was a policeman. One of my last jobs was pulling out a drowned two-year-old who had wondered into his neighbour's yard and fell in their spa pool. Death of another? I worked in Auckland Central, where part of our duties was receiving bodies after sudden deaths. had to strip their bodies of clothing with the assistance of the undertaker and gather their valuables etc. So, you were saying, about the death of another?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You have the gun in the first place because you are scared. Without your gun you feel vulnerable. I do not own a gun, will never own a gun and never even think about having a gun. The only time guns are mentioned in my life are on chat boards with people from the US..

Different mind set and all....

I used to live in the country. I watched a man shoot a dog that had just attacked another person, and went after him when he went near the dog. It was a relief to see that dog die, didn't want to see anyone else attacked. I have shot varmits that were killing my domestic animals before. If there wasn't a gun, the varmit would have escaped to killl more animals. I been in bear country too. I packed when I went hiking or camping. I thought anyone that didn't pack was "stupid" (in bear country).
Your right, it is a different mind set. You aren't "scared" because you are "spoiled". All your life, you have lived in relative safety because other people were willing to stand up and defend you (along with themselves and their families); you have never had to get your hands "dirty" with death of another. I hope that you will be able to live the rest of your life that way. Unfortunately, watching the world, I think the violence will be coming more frequently to our doors. What will you do when they break in your door?

Honestly, you sound like a guy who is scared of life. You are always anticipating the worst case scenario. I couldn't live like that. Who has stood up and defended me? When? Who is going to break in my door? If there is an all out war, then that changes the game. I'm talking about living in a civilised, modern society. Things change, and when they do, you adapt..

I was a policeman. One of my last jobs was pulling out a drowned two-year-old who had wondered into his neighbour's yard and fell in their spa pool. Death of another? I worked in Auckland Central, where part of our duties was receiving bodies after sudden deaths. had to strip their bodies of clothing with the assistance of the undertaker and gather their valuables etc. So, you were saying, about the death of another?

You really don't know your countries history do you? How many lives were saved by armed civilians when the Japanese invaded your country?

 

[westwall]

If people do not have guns, they will use other weapons to murder. Can you understand that?
Good, now let's move on to the reasoning part....
If people do not have guns, the most ruthless, evil will have their way, because they will either murder those that do not go along with them or "torture" them. Is this making sense (Somalia)?
Therefore, if people have "guns", those that would normally do evil, are "persuaded" (even the most evil person is not willing to walk into a situation where they are most likely to be killed if they try to use force against others) to behave themselves.
Did you use your reason, do you understand, now?
Therefore, the more "good" people that have guns, the less the "bad" people will be likely to act on their evil intentions (many of the "bad" people will even become useful in society, if the "persuasion" is consistent enough.

And yet countries like NZ, Australia, Canada and those in Europe - where gun proliferation is negligible at best - don't believe in your Chicken Little scenario. Last time I looked NZ had a murder rate of 1.9 people per 100,000, the US 5.6 per 100,000. Have your guns made your society safer than mine with its lack of guns?

IOW, your argument doesn't stack up.

Somalia is bordering on Straw Man, in that you are comparing a country that has always been third world, to that of the US, which is far from being so. You don't appear to have a lot of faith in civlisation or your form of govt (the former I find amusing, the latter doesn't surprise me)...

There are 7+ million people in the bay Area of San Francisco, with a land area of around 6,000 square miles. The entire country of New Zealand is what around 100,000 to 105,000 square miles? Something like that. You have 4 to 4.5 million people within that vast area, you're outnumbered 20 to 1 by SHEEP!

Is the Black Power gang still the biggest or has the Mongrel Mob caught up with them or been wiped out? What about them Nomads or DSK? Or how about the Junior Don Kings (if you were a copper you should know who they are), how is it that in a socialist paradise like New Zealand they can have more gangs per capita then any other country? There are 70 major gangs at last count!

You clearly weren't doing your job!

 

[daveman]

Oh, I understand the difference. You're running away from the debate.

What you think you have in terms of freedoms, and what you actually have, are two different things...

I run away from nothing. And it's always hilarious when people think they're qualified to tell me what I think...especially people who aren't capable of thinking for themselves.

Ok, tell me how you are more 'free' than I...in practical terms.

Start another thread, you subject.

 

[logical4u]

If people do not have guns, they will use other weapons to murder. Can you understand that?
Good, now let's move on to the reasoning part....
If people do not have guns, the most ruthless, evil will have their way, because they will either murder those that do not go along with them or "torture" them. Is this making sense (Somalia)?
Therefore, if people have "guns", those that would normally do evil, are "persuaded" (even the most evil person is not willing to walk into a situation where they are most likely to be killed if they try to use force against others) to behave themselves.
Did you use your reason, do you understand, now?
Therefore, the more "good" people that have guns, the less the "bad" people will be likely to act on their evil intentions (many of the "bad" people will even become useful in society, if the "persuasion" is consistent enough.

And yet countries like NZ, Australia, Canada and those in Europe - where gun proliferation is negligible at best - don't believe in your Chicken Little scenario. Last time I looked NZ had a murder rate of 1.9 people per 100,000, the US 5.6 per 100,000. Have your guns made your society safer than mine with its lack of guns?

IOW, your argument doesn't stack up.

Somalia is bordering on Straw Man, in that you are comparing a country that has always been third world, to that of the US, which is far from being so. You don't appear to have a lot of faith in civlisation or your form of govt (the former I find amusing, the latter doesn't surprise me)...

Who protects countries like: NZ, Australia, Canada and those in Europe from foreign invasion?
I never claimed to have a safer society than yours; liberty is more important than an almighty NANNY.
I don't have a lot of faith in any form of gov't. Our Constitution kept a fairly good check on the gov't for over one hundred years, but evil is at work, and chipping away at our Constitution stated, God given rights, and replacing that with: if you belong to a group that the party in power agrees with, you will have more rights than the groups the gov't doesn't agree with, if you are not part of a group, you will be assigned one by the gov't. It is always the way: people will take what others have made.

 

[logical4u]

It is? Links....

Knife Killings in City Increased 50 Percent in 2008

Scotland's knife killings reach record numbers - Crime - UK - The Independent
Login - Glasgowgangland.com
Knives used in four out of 10 youth killings in UK | UK news | The Guardian
Knife killings out-number gun murders 3 - 1 (Bob Russell)
Is Gun Control Likely To Reduce Violent Killings?
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../7300139/Record-knife-killings-in-Scotland.html

if you care about the "facts", do a search on "number of knife killings" and there are many, many more links. You may not want to though, it could interfer with your narrow view of "guns".

I don't have a narrow view of guns, I just don't think about them that often...;o)

You wanted links?

 

[Dr Grump]

I used to live in the country. I watched a man shoot a dog that had just attacked another person, and went after him when he went near the dog. It was a relief to see that dog die, didn't want to see anyone else attacked. I have shot varmits that were killing my domestic animals before. If there wasn't a gun, the varmit would have escaped to killl more animals. I been in bear country too. I packed when I went hiking or camping. I thought anyone that didn't pack was "stupid" (in bear country).
Your right, it is a different mind set. You aren't "scared" because you are "spoiled". All your life, you have lived in relative safety because other people were willing to stand up and defend you (along with themselves and their families); you have never had to get your hands "dirty" with death of another. I hope that you will be able to live the rest of your life that way. Unfortunately, watching the world, I think the violence will be coming more frequently to our doors. What will you do when they break in your door?

Honestly, you sound like a guy who is scared of life. You are always anticipating the worst case scenario. I couldn't live like that. Who has stood up and defended me? When? Who is going to break in my door? If there is an all out war, then that changes the game. I'm talking about living in a civilised, modern society. Things change, and when they do, you adapt..

I was a policeman. One of my last jobs was pulling out a drowned two-year-old who had wondered into his neighbour's yard and fell in their spa pool. Death of another? I worked in Auckland Central, where part of our duties was receiving bodies after sudden deaths. had to strip their bodies of clothing with the assistance of the undertaker and gather their valuables etc. So, you were saying, about the death of another?

You really don't know your countries history do you? How many lives were saved by armed civilians when the Japanese invaded your country?

None. NZ and Oz were never invaded.

 

[logical4u]

You have the gun in the first place because you are scared. Without your gun you feel vulnerable. I do not own a gun, will never own a gun and never even think about having a gun. The only time guns are mentioned in my life are on chat boards with people from the US..

Different mind set and all....

I used to live in the country. I watched a man shoot a dog that had just attacked another person, and went after him when he went near the dog. It was a relief to see that dog die, didn't want to see anyone else attacked. I have shot varmits that were killing my domestic animals before. If there wasn't a gun, the varmit would have escaped to killl more animals. I been in bear country too. I packed when I went hiking or camping. I thought anyone that didn't pack was "stupid" (in bear country).
Your right, it is a different mind set. You aren't "scared" because you are "spoiled". All your life, you have lived in relative safety because other people were willing to stand up and defend you (along with themselves and their families); you have never had to get your hands "dirty" with death of another. I hope that you will be able to live the rest of your life that way. Unfortunately, watching the world, I think the violence will be coming more frequently to our doors. What will you do when they break in your door?

Honestly, you sound like a guy who is scared of life. You are always anticipating the worst case scenario. I couldn't live like that. Who has stood up and defended me? When? Who is going to break in my door? If there is an all out war, then that changes the game. I'm talking about living in a civilised, modern society. Things change, and when they do, you adapt..

I was a policeman. One of my last jobs was pulling out a drowned two-year-old who had wondered into his neighbour's yard and fell in their spa pool. Death of another? I worked in Auckland Central, where part of our duties was receiving bodies after sudden deaths. had to strip their bodies of clothing with the assistance of the undertaker and gather their valuables etc. So, you were saying, about the death of another?

I apologize. I am sorry you had to see those things. We are at war. It is in the air, and it is coming. The worst case scenario would to be totally helpless when evil came after my family. I prefer a fighting chance.

 

[Dr Grump]

And yet countries like NZ, Australia, Canada and those in Europe - where gun proliferation is negligible at best - don't believe in your Chicken Little scenario. Last time I looked NZ had a murder rate of 1.9 people per 100,000, the US 5.6 per 100,000. Have your guns made your society safer than mine with its lack of guns?

IOW, your argument doesn't stack up.

Somalia is bordering on Straw Man, in that you are comparing a country that has always been third world, to that of the US, which is far from being so. You don't appear to have a lot of faith in civlisation or your form of govt (the former I find amusing, the latter doesn't surprise me)...

There are 7+ million people in the bay Area of San Francisco, with a land area of around 6,000 square miles. The entire country of New Zealand is what around 100,000 to 105,000 square miles? Something like that. You have 4 to 4.5 million people within that vast area, you're outnumbered 20 to 1 by SHEEP!

Is the Black Power gang still the biggest or has the Mongrel Mob caught up with them or been wiped out? What about them Nomads or DSK? Or how about the Junior Don Kings (if you were a copper you should know who they are), how is it that in a socialist paradise like New Zealand they can have more gangs per capita then any other country? There are 70 major gangs at last count!

You clearly weren't doing your job!

I think it is closer to 220,000 square miles, but note I said 'per 100,000' , so population or area is irrelevent.

BP and MM are still going strong, but hardly cause the ruckus they used to. Still make the news on occasion, usually beating the shit out of each other (like that's a bad thing)...Never heard of the Don Kings. Might be a CHCH gang. Headhunters are/were by far the most dangerous, prolly followed by the Hells Angels. Go into Google earth and type in 24 Brentwood Ave Mt Eden. Just to the left of the gate you can just make out Hells Angels MC, Auckland logo. Nice old villa...

As for gang problems, you have whole suburbs in Baltimore, Detroit, NY and LA and Chicago run by gangs. Can't say the same in NZ or Oz.

 

[daveman]

And gives you the highest deaths via firearms in the Western World, too....

Correct.

Anyone who tries to make an argument in the context of guns and violence in the United States that there is no excessive gun violence is a fool, the facts are against him.

But that’s politics and social policy.

In the United States, as a matter of law, it’s a completely different issue.

Ok, tell me how you are more 'free' than I...in practical terms.

Correct again.

You have greater freedom from death and violence, you are free to walk the streets without fear.

The numbers say otherwise.

Crime stats: New Zealand vs United States
New Zealand Crime stats American Crime stats
Assault victims 2.4% 1.2%
Ranked 3rd. 100% more than United States Ranked 11th.
Believe in police efficiency 79% 89%
Ranked 3rd. Ranked 1st. 13% more than New Zealand
Perception of safety > Walking in dark 62% 82%
Rape victims 1.3% 0.4%
Ranked 1st. 2 times more than United States Ranked 13th.
Suicide rates in ages 15-24 26.7 per 100,000 people 13.7 per 100,000 people
Ranked 1st. 95% more than United States Ranked 7th.
Suicide rates in ages 25-34 25.1 per 100,000 people 15.3 per 100,000 people
Ranked 2nd. 64% more than United States Ranked 10th.
Total crime victims 29.4% 21.1%

Sorry to blow your "America sucks!" nonsense out of the water.

 

[westwall]

Honestly, you sound like a guy who is scared of life. You are always anticipating the worst case scenario. I couldn't live like that. Who has stood up and defended me? When? Who is going to break in my door? If there is an all out war, then that changes the game. I'm talking about living in a civilised, modern society. Things change, and when they do, you adapt..

I was a policeman. One of my last jobs was pulling out a drowned two-year-old who had wondered into his neighbour's yard and fell in their spa pool. Death of another? I worked in Auckland Central, where part of our duties was receiving bodies after sudden deaths. had to strip their bodies of clothing with the assistance of the undertaker and gather their valuables etc. So, you were saying, about the death of another?

You really don't know your countries history do you? How many lives were saved by armed civilians when the Japanese invaded your country?

None. NZ and Oz were never invaded.

Australia had a Japanese recon force land on its shores as late as 1944. It remained for around three days. The defensive line was called the Brisbane line and all north of that line was to be ceded to the Japanese.

 

[daveman]

If you don't own a gun, you're a fool.

I've always thought if you own a gun, you're scared...shrug...

If you own a gun, you don't need to be scared.

 

[Dr Grump]

I used to live in the country. I watched a man shoot a dog that had just attacked another person, and went after him when he went near the dog. It was a relief to see that dog die, didn't want to see anyone else attacked. I have shot varmits that were killing my domestic animals before. If there wasn't a gun, the varmit would have escaped to killl more animals. I been in bear country too. I packed when I went hiking or camping. I thought anyone that didn't pack was "stupid" (in bear country).
Your right, it is a different mind set. You aren't "scared" because you are "spoiled". All your life, you have lived in relative safety because other people were willing to stand up and defend you (along with themselves and their families); you have never had to get your hands "dirty" with death of another. I hope that you will be able to live the rest of your life that way. Unfortunately, watching the world, I think the violence will be coming more frequently to our doors. What will you do when they break in your door?

Honestly, you sound like a guy who is scared of life. You are always anticipating the worst case scenario. I couldn't live like that. Who has stood up and defended me? When? Who is going to break in my door? If there is an all out war, then that changes the game. I'm talking about living in a civilised, modern society. Things change, and when they do, you adapt..

I was a policeman. One of my last jobs was pulling out a drowned two-year-old who had wondered into his neighbour's yard and fell in their spa pool. Death of another? I worked in Auckland Central, where part of our duties was receiving bodies after sudden deaths. had to strip their bodies of clothing with the assistance of the undertaker and gather their valuables etc. So, you were saying, about the death of another?

I apologize. I am sorry you had to see those things. We are at war. It is in the air, and it is coming. The worst case scenario would to be totally helpless when evil came after my family. I prefer a fighting chance.

I'm sorry for those people but not for myself. Life's about learning lessons.

hhhmm, I'm a little more optimistic than you. I don't think there will be conventional wars any more......

China and the US might bang heads at some stage over the next 50 years, but that would be over water and natural resources IMO...