Gun Rights for those 17 - 21

[Skull Pilot]

They bitched when Reagan raised the drinking age for much the same reasons....

See but Reagan didn't raise the drinking age what he did was threaten to withhold highway funds for any state that did not raise the drinking age

IOW he violated the Constitution

 

[Humorme]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

But it’s all reasonable right?


Where are the hound folks asking why it’s okay that fat disgusting slobs like Trump and the political ruling class can ask an 18 year old kid to go spend his life on a useless cause like Afghanistan or Iraq, but we can’t give the. Beer? Can’t give them guns? But they can sure vote.


Stop electing liars and cowards like Trump. Assume any republicans are as big liars as the democrat ( some are worse) and stop voting for them.

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table.

The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not supporting the lesser of two evils any longer.

HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

 

[BluesLegend]

What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country

In the military you are TRAINED and STRICTLY SUPERVISED that's a world of difference.

 

[BluesLegend]

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table. The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not support the lesser of two evils any longer. HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

My friend you are naïve. Democrats have a LONG history of welching on compromise. They pretend to negotiate a compromise all the while planning to welch on the deal from the start. Second, their stated goal is to ban guns, all guns. Several leading Dem politicians are on record stating this is their long term goal.

Did you know when Australia (often sighted by gun control advocates in this country) banned guns, their government threatened law abiding citizens with PRISON if they did not turn in their guns to the government? Did you know they ran ads, showing a row of men in a prison shower? The message was clear, law abiding citizens turn in your guns to government or get ass raped in prison for 12 months. And this is what many Democrats lust after.

 

[Humorme]

What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country

In the military you are TRAINED and STRICTLY SUPERVISED that's a world of difference.

You mean like Nidal Hasan was?

If you're going to use all caps, make sure they mean something.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

My friend you are naïve. Democrats have a LONG history of welching on compromise. They pretend to negotiate a compromise all the while planning to welch on the deal from the start. Second, their stated goal is to ban guns, all guns. Several leading Dem politicians are on record stating this is their long term goal.

Couldn't agree more. In fact I found a survey that stated over one-third of Democrats support the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. Over 80% support a ban on all semi-automatic weapons including handguns. It's frightening actually. If they ever get full power of the federal government again, we're in real trouble:

Survey: Over 1/3 of Democrats support Second Amendment repeal

 

[Humorme]

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table. The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not support the lesser of two evils any longer. HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

My friend you are naïve. Democrats have a LONG history of welching on compromise. They pretend to negotiate a compromise all the while planning to welch on the deal from the start. Second, their stated goal is to ban guns, all guns. Several leading Dem politicians are on record stating this is their long term goal.

Did you know when Australia (often sighted by gun control advocates in this country) banned guns, their government threatened law abiding citizens with PRISON if they did not turn in their guns to the government? Did you know they ran ads, showing a row of men in a prison shower? The message was clear, law abiding citizens turn in your guns to government or get ass raped in prison for 12 months. And this is what many Democrats lust after.

So, having never met me, you think I'm naive? That's a good one.

Starting in 1984 I lobbied for the NRA. I've written thousands of articles (man of which made the newspapers) and have written model legislation. That doesn't include the many different gun organizations I've been in and worked with at one level or another.

I'm well aware that the Democrats do not want to negotiate and won't. They're basically communists. Hell, look at how good Bernie Sanders, the self proclaimed socialist did. Let's talk the real strategy here:

To begin with, I've offered many alternatives to gun control that would save lives without any form of bans, registration, lowering minimum ages, etc. Again, the best defense is a good offense. The problem is, the Republicans play the defense and ignore the preventative measures that would take the nutjobs as opposed to guns off the streets.

IF America would just ONE TIME have an honest discussion about the root causes of first mass shootings and then, the rest of the reasons we have firearm violence, we could solve the real problem without gutting what's left of the Second Amendment. THE POLITICIANS AREN'T GOING TO DO IT. This problem has been dropped into YOUR lap. YOU will have to be the solution. Of course, the Democrats aren't going to negotiate, but what happens when the parents of those who lost children in the last few mass shootings figure out that we're saying that if this technology had been used, that law applied, and / or we had acted on the reports that their children would be alive today?

NOBODY (except maybe me) is putting new ideas on the table instead of this worn out B.S. that hogs up bandwidth here and creates a pretext for weakening our Constitution in the real world. Hey, if you want to piss away what's left of your Rights by talking down to me, that is your prerogative. If, on the other hand, you want to put the Democrats on the defensive, then take heed. These are your choices:

* Do nothing and they can expand gun control once again

* Put alternatives on the table and kill the Democrats power grab by giving them the opportunity to have one legislative session to do this our way. Let's fix what broke down the last few mass shootings ago.

* Put some preventative measures in place and as the numbers drop, the Democrats pretexts evaporate. We, the citizenry, have the answer. The politicians don't. Doing nothing only allows the liberal news media and the Democrats to control the discussion. And you want to school ME on being naive?

 

[BluesLegend]

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table. The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not support the lesser of two evils any longer. HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

My friend you are naïve. Democrats have a LONG history of welching on compromise. They pretend to negotiate a compromise all the while planning to welch on the deal from the start. Second, their stated goal is to ban guns, all guns. Several leading Dem politicians are on record stating this is their long term goal.

Did you know when Australia (often sighted by gun control advocates in this country) banned guns, their government threatened law abiding citizens with PRISON if they did not turn in their guns to the government? Did you know they ran ads, showing a row of men in a prison shower? The message was clear, law abiding citizens turn in your guns to government or get ass raped in prison for 12 months. And this is what many Democrats lust after.

So, having never met me, you think I'm naive? That's a good one.

Starting in 1984 I lobbied for the NRA. I've written thousands of articles (man of which made the newspapers) and have written model legislation. That doesn't include the many different gun organizations I've been in and worked with at one level or another.

I'm well aware that the Democrats do not want to negotiate and won't. They're basically communists. Hell, look at how good Bernie Sanders, the self proclaimed socialist did. Let's talk the real strategy here:

To begin with, I've offered many alternatives to gun control that would save lives without any form of bans, registration, lowering minimum ages, etc. Again, the best defense is a good offense. The problem is, the Republicans play the defense and ignore the preventative measures that would take the nutjobs as opposed to guns off the streets.

IF America would just ONE TIME have an honest discussion about the root causes of first mass shootings and then, the rest of the reasons we have firearm violence, we could solve the real problem without gutting what's left of the Second Amendment. THE POLITICIANS AREN'T GOING TO DO IT. This problem has been dropped into YOUR lap. YOU will have to be the solution. Of course, the Democrats aren't going to negotiate, but what happens when the parents of those who lost children in the last few mass shootings figure out that we're saying that if this technology had been used, that law applied, and / or we had acted on the reports that their children would be alive today?

NOBODY (except maybe me) is putting new ideas on the table instead of this worn out B.S. that hogs up bandwidth here and creates a pretext for weakening our Constitution in the real world. Hey, if you want to piss away what's left of your Rights by talking down to me, that is your prerogative. If, on the other hand, you want to put the Democrats on the defensive, then take heed. These are your choices:

* Do nothing and they can expand gun control once again

* Put alternatives on the table and kill the Democrats power grab by giving them the opportunity to have one legislative session to do this our way. Let's fix what broke down the last few mass shootings ago.

* Put some preventative measures in place and as the numbers drop, the Democrats pretexts evaporate. We, the citizenry, have the answer. The politicians don't. Doing nothing only allows the liberal news media and the Democrats to control the discussion. And you want to school ME on being naive?

Get this through your thick skull, you cannot negotiate with Democrats they are liars. This is why they refuse to vote for any bill that isn't written in such a way that they can welch on it later. This is why compromise is always Dem's get what they want up front and Rep's get what they want...later, much later, hopefully when Dem's are in control so they can just welch on it.

Far more people have been killed in mass bombings than in mass shootings. Go ahead ban all guns, confiscated every last firearm there will still be mass murders at schools just as their has been in the past. Punishing 99.9% of the citizens who are law abiding for the actions of a rare few whackos is not the answer and won't stop them in any case.

Did you know far more people have been killed by illegals, between 2003 and 2009 illegals committed over 25,000 homicides. Some nut kills 17 students and there is mass hysteria, yet thousands killed by illegals, thousands raped by illegals and we are still debating whether or not to secure the border and deport illegals.

 

[hazlnut]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

The only ones who care about this are the NRA (marketing arm of the gun makers) because it will mean less customers. NRA members don't care. Gun owners don't care. They don't want kids buying weapons they're not ready to handle.

If dad wants to offer you a beer at home, great. If dad wants to take Jr. hunting with his gun, great.

But, sorry, kiddo, no guns for you today.

 

[Humorme]

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table. The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not support the lesser of two evils any longer. HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

My friend you are naïve. Democrats have a LONG history of welching on compromise. They pretend to negotiate a compromise all the while planning to welch on the deal from the start. Second, their stated goal is to ban guns, all guns. Several leading Dem politicians are on record stating this is their long term goal.

Did you know when Australia (often sighted by gun control advocates in this country) banned guns, their government threatened law abiding citizens with PRISON if they did not turn in their guns to the government? Did you know they ran ads, showing a row of men in a prison shower? The message was clear, law abiding citizens turn in your guns to government or get ass raped in prison for 12 months. And this is what many Democrats lust after.

So, having never met me, you think I'm naive? That's a good one.

Starting in 1984 I lobbied for the NRA. I've written thousands of articles (man of which made the newspapers) and have written model legislation. That doesn't include the many different gun organizations I've been in and worked with at one level or another.

I'm well aware that the Democrats do not want to negotiate and won't. They're basically communists. Hell, look at how good Bernie Sanders, the self proclaimed socialist did. Let's talk the real strategy here:

To begin with, I've offered many alternatives to gun control that would save lives without any form of bans, registration, lowering minimum ages, etc. Again, the best defense is a good offense. The problem is, the Republicans play the defense and ignore the preventative measures that would take the nutjobs as opposed to guns off the streets.

IF America would just ONE TIME have an honest discussion about the root causes of first mass shootings and then, the rest of the reasons we have firearm violence, we could solve the real problem without gutting what's left of the Second Amendment. THE POLITICIANS AREN'T GOING TO DO IT. This problem has been dropped into YOUR lap. YOU will have to be the solution. Of course, the Democrats aren't going to negotiate, but what happens when the parents of those who lost children in the last few mass shootings figure out that we're saying that if this technology had been used, that law applied, and / or we had acted on the reports that their children would be alive today?

NOBODY (except maybe me) is putting new ideas on the table instead of this worn out B.S. that hogs up bandwidth here and creates a pretext for weakening our Constitution in the real world. Hey, if you want to piss away what's left of your Rights by talking down to me, that is your prerogative. If, on the other hand, you want to put the Democrats on the defensive, then take heed. These are your choices:

* Do nothing and they can expand gun control once again

* Put alternatives on the table and kill the Democrats power grab by giving them the opportunity to have one legislative session to do this our way. Let's fix what broke down the last few mass shootings ago.

* Put some preventative measures in place and as the numbers drop, the Democrats pretexts evaporate. We, the citizenry, have the answer. The politicians don't. Doing nothing only allows the liberal news media and the Democrats to control the discussion. And you want to school ME on being naive?

Get this through your thick skull, you cannot negotiate with Democrats they are liars. This is why they refuse to vote for any bill that isn't written in such a way that they can welch on it later. This is why compromise is always Dem's get what they want up front and Rep's get what they want...later, much later, hopefully when Dem's are in control so they can just welch on it.

Far more people have been killed in mass bombings than in mass shootings. Go ahead ban all guns, confiscated every last firearm there will still be mass murders at schools just as their has been in the past. Punishing 99.9% of the citizens who are law abiding for the actions of a rare few whackos is not the answer and won't stop them in any case.

Did you know far more people have been killed by illegals, between 2003 and 2009 illegals committed over 25,000 homicides. Some nut kills 17 students and there is mass hysteria, yet thousands killed by illegals, thousands raped by illegals and we are still debating whether or not to secure the border and deport illegals.

Get this through YOUR thick head:

You haven't told me one damn thing I don't already know AND told you I understand. NOW, try pulling your head out of your ass and read about strategy:

Every time a Republican gets into office we do the smoke and mirror show. The Democrats offer up gun control. The Republicans "compromise" and you're one step closer to total gun control. It's the same freaking game over and over.

They KEY is that you come to the table and offer an alternative idea. LET THE DEMOCRATS REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE.

Once you've taken the offense to them and they are on the defense, they dare not push gun control too hard without accepting your proposals. If it does nothing else, it takes the issue off the table for a time.

Then, with gun control off the table, you negotiate to get these numbers down via other legislation (like mental health laws and / or child welfare laws.) the numbers keep going down; the Democrats refuse to come to the table and negotiate. Soon they lose their credibility. But, ignore me and if you do the same old, same old, you'll continue to get the same old, same old.

 

[Humorme]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

The only ones who care about this are the NRA (marketing arm of the gun makers) because it will mean less customers. NRA members don't care. Gun owners don't care. They don't want kids buying weapons they're not ready to handle.

If dad wants to offer you a beer at home, great. If dad wants to take Jr. hunting with his gun, great.

But, sorry, kiddo, no guns for you today.

This thread is for kids 17 - 21.

The truth be known, I've been recruiting people to help get measures introduced that would reduce gun violence without the standard B.S. political arguments... things which would have prevented Sandy Hook and Lakeland, Florida. I'll bet you can't guess which side offers NO support for reducing the numbers of victims and leaving the gun control debate. Ready for the answer?

BOTH SIDES. Nobody really cares about the children. How about you? I do have a PM here.

 

[Crixus]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

But it’s all reasonable right?


Where are the hound folks asking why it’s okay that fat disgusting slobs like Trump and the political ruling class can ask an 18 year old kid to go spend his life on a useless cause like Afghanistan or Iraq, but we can’t give the. Beer? Can’t give them guns? But they can sure vote.


Stop electing liars and cowards like Trump. Assume any republicans are as big liars as the democrat ( some are worse) and stop voting for them.

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table.

The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not supporting the lesser of two evils any longer.

HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

Pretty much. But one never gos to make a deal with what they will give away.

 

[BluesLegend]

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table. The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not support the lesser of two evils any longer. HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

My friend you are naïve. Democrats have a LONG history of welching on compromise. They pretend to negotiate a compromise all the while planning to welch on the deal from the start. Second, their stated goal is to ban guns, all guns. Several leading Dem politicians are on record stating this is their long term goal.

Did you know when Australia (often sighted by gun control advocates in this country) banned guns, their government threatened law abiding citizens with PRISON if they did not turn in their guns to the government? Did you know they ran ads, showing a row of men in a prison shower? The message was clear, law abiding citizens turn in your guns to government or get ass raped in prison for 12 months. And this is what many Democrats lust after.

So, having never met me, you think I'm naive? That's a good one.

Starting in 1984 I lobbied for the NRA. I've written thousands of articles (man of which made the newspapers) and have written model legislation. That doesn't include the many different gun organizations I've been in and worked with at one level or another.

I'm well aware that the Democrats do not want to negotiate and won't. They're basically communists. Hell, look at how good Bernie Sanders, the self proclaimed socialist did. Let's talk the real strategy here:

To begin with, I've offered many alternatives to gun control that would save lives without any form of bans, registration, lowering minimum ages, etc. Again, the best defense is a good offense. The problem is, the Republicans play the defense and ignore the preventative measures that would take the nutjobs as opposed to guns off the streets.

IF America would just ONE TIME have an honest discussion about the root causes of first mass shootings and then, the rest of the reasons we have firearm violence, we could solve the real problem without gutting what's left of the Second Amendment. THE POLITICIANS AREN'T GOING TO DO IT. This problem has been dropped into YOUR lap. YOU will have to be the solution. Of course, the Democrats aren't going to negotiate, but what happens when the parents of those who lost children in the last few mass shootings figure out that we're saying that if this technology had been used, that law applied, and / or we had acted on the reports that their children would be alive today?

NOBODY (except maybe me) is putting new ideas on the table instead of this worn out B.S. that hogs up bandwidth here and creates a pretext for weakening our Constitution in the real world. Hey, if you want to piss away what's left of your Rights by talking down to me, that is your prerogative. If, on the other hand, you want to put the Democrats on the defensive, then take heed. These are your choices:

* Do nothing and they can expand gun control once again

* Put alternatives on the table and kill the Democrats power grab by giving them the opportunity to have one legislative session to do this our way. Let's fix what broke down the last few mass shootings ago.

* Put some preventative measures in place and as the numbers drop, the Democrats pretexts evaporate. We, the citizenry, have the answer. The politicians don't. Doing nothing only allows the liberal news media and the Democrats to control the discussion. And you want to school ME on being naive?

Get this through your thick skull, you cannot negotiate with Democrats they are liars. This is why they refuse to vote for any bill that isn't written in such a way that they can welch on it later. This is why compromise is always Dem's get what they want up front and Rep's get what they want...later, much later, hopefully when Dem's are in control so they can just welch on it.

Far more people have been killed in mass bombings than in mass shootings. Go ahead ban all guns, confiscated every last firearm there will still be mass murders at schools just as their has been in the past. Punishing 99.9% of the citizens who are law abiding for the actions of a rare few whackos is not the answer and won't stop them in any case.

Did you know far more people have been killed by illegals, between 2003 and 2009 illegals committed over 25,000 homicides. Some nut kills 17 students and there is mass hysteria, yet thousands killed by illegals, thousands raped by illegals and we are still debating whether or not to secure the border and deport illegals.

Get this through YOUR thick head:

You haven't told me one damn thing I don't already know AND told you I understand. NOW, try pulling your head out of your ass and read about strategy:

Every time a Republican gets into office we do the smoke and mirror show. The Democrats offer up gun control. The Republicans "compromise" and you're one step closer to total gun control. It's the same freaking game over and over.

They KEY is that you come to the table and offer an alternative idea. LET THE DEMOCRATS REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE.

Once you've taken the offense to them and they are on the defense, they dare not push gun control too hard without accepting your proposals. If it does nothing else, it takes the issue off the table for a time.

Then, with gun control off the table, you negotiate to get these numbers down via other legislation (like mental health laws and / or child welfare laws.) the numbers keep going down; the Democrats refuse to come to the table and negotiate. Soon they lose their credibility. But, ignore me and if you do the same old, same old, you'll continue to get the same old, same old.

You are naïve and gullible trust me on this.

 

[Humorme]

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table. The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not support the lesser of two evils any longer. HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

My friend you are naïve. Democrats have a LONG history of welching on compromise. They pretend to negotiate a compromise all the while planning to welch on the deal from the start. Second, their stated goal is to ban guns, all guns. Several leading Dem politicians are on record stating this is their long term goal.

Did you know when Australia (often sighted by gun control advocates in this country) banned guns, their government threatened law abiding citizens with PRISON if they did not turn in their guns to the government? Did you know they ran ads, showing a row of men in a prison shower? The message was clear, law abiding citizens turn in your guns to government or get ass raped in prison for 12 months. And this is what many Democrats lust after.

So, having never met me, you think I'm naive? That's a good one.

Starting in 1984 I lobbied for the NRA. I've written thousands of articles (man of which made the newspapers) and have written model legislation. That doesn't include the many different gun organizations I've been in and worked with at one level or another.

I'm well aware that the Democrats do not want to negotiate and won't. They're basically communists. Hell, look at how good Bernie Sanders, the self proclaimed socialist did. Let's talk the real strategy here:

To begin with, I've offered many alternatives to gun control that would save lives without any form of bans, registration, lowering minimum ages, etc. Again, the best defense is a good offense. The problem is, the Republicans play the defense and ignore the preventative measures that would take the nutjobs as opposed to guns off the streets.

IF America would just ONE TIME have an honest discussion about the root causes of first mass shootings and then, the rest of the reasons we have firearm violence, we could solve the real problem without gutting what's left of the Second Amendment. THE POLITICIANS AREN'T GOING TO DO IT. This problem has been dropped into YOUR lap. YOU will have to be the solution. Of course, the Democrats aren't going to negotiate, but what happens when the parents of those who lost children in the last few mass shootings figure out that we're saying that if this technology had been used, that law applied, and / or we had acted on the reports that their children would be alive today?

NOBODY (except maybe me) is putting new ideas on the table instead of this worn out B.S. that hogs up bandwidth here and creates a pretext for weakening our Constitution in the real world. Hey, if you want to piss away what's left of your Rights by talking down to me, that is your prerogative. If, on the other hand, you want to put the Democrats on the defensive, then take heed. These are your choices:

* Do nothing and they can expand gun control once again

* Put alternatives on the table and kill the Democrats power grab by giving them the opportunity to have one legislative session to do this our way. Let's fix what broke down the last few mass shootings ago.

* Put some preventative measures in place and as the numbers drop, the Democrats pretexts evaporate. We, the citizenry, have the answer. The politicians don't. Doing nothing only allows the liberal news media and the Democrats to control the discussion. And you want to school ME on being naive?

Get this through your thick skull, you cannot negotiate with Democrats they are liars. This is why they refuse to vote for any bill that isn't written in such a way that they can welch on it later. This is why compromise is always Dem's get what they want up front and Rep's get what they want...later, much later, hopefully when Dem's are in control so they can just welch on it.

Far more people have been killed in mass bombings than in mass shootings. Go ahead ban all guns, confiscated every last firearm there will still be mass murders at schools just as their has been in the past. Punishing 99.9% of the citizens who are law abiding for the actions of a rare few whackos is not the answer and won't stop them in any case.

Did you know far more people have been killed by illegals, between 2003 and 2009 illegals committed over 25,000 homicides. Some nut kills 17 students and there is mass hysteria, yet thousands killed by illegals, thousands raped by illegals and we are still debating whether or not to secure the border and deport illegals.

Get this through YOUR thick head:

You haven't told me one damn thing I don't already know AND told you I understand. NOW, try pulling your head out of your ass and read about strategy:

Every time a Republican gets into office we do the smoke and mirror show. The Democrats offer up gun control. The Republicans "compromise" and you're one step closer to total gun control. It's the same freaking game over and over.

They KEY is that you come to the table and offer an alternative idea. LET THE DEMOCRATS REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE.

Once you've taken the offense to them and they are on the defense, they dare not push gun control too hard without accepting your proposals. If it does nothing else, it takes the issue off the table for a time.

Then, with gun control off the table, you negotiate to get these numbers down via other legislation (like mental health laws and / or child welfare laws.) the numbers keep going down; the Democrats refuse to come to the table and negotiate. Soon they lose their credibility. But, ignore me and if you do the same old, same old, you'll continue to get the same old, same old.

You are naïve and gullible trust me on this.

How many court cases have you won?

How many times have you negotiated settlements?

Trust you? The B.S. you support has a history of abject failure with the right compromising and losing ground every single time.

You were so insecure with your position, you turned a thread aimed at 17 - 21 year olds into a pissing match over political strategies that have NOTHING do with educating and challenging the 17 - 21 year old crowd to think outside the box.

I don't trust you because you're too arrogant, ignorant, and self absorbed. If you're from the right, you represent a history of compromise, stupidity and losing on every front. If you represent the left, you are an amateur disinformation artist that couldn't cut it in the real world.

You should be trusting me. I've got one HELL of a lot more experience than you do. The right keeps doing the same thing over and over with the same results and they keep losing. There's a word to describe such a people... wait... no, I'll let you figure it out.

 

[Humorme]

If you are between the ages of 17 - 21 and are following all these gun control threads, there is something I would like you to consider. This isn't a debate, it's a political / legal reality so bear with me.

All of these retail establishments along with the president have decided that until you're 21 you should not own a firearm. What strikes me as odd here is that at 17 you can sign up and go into the military and defend this country, but it's another FOUR YEARS before the government thinks you ought to be able to defend your own life.

If you don't like that, you should urge all those in your age group to boycott the military until Uncle Scam gets his head out of his ..........

Virtually every election cycle when Republicans gain any power, the media and the Democrats sensationalize someone else's misery in order to sell gun control and force the Republicans to sign major gun legislation that ultimately accomplishes NOTHING.

* Under Reagan, he signed a bill to outlaw the future manufacture of fully autos for civilian use - and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA HAD DIED FROM A BULLET FIRED FROM A LEGAL FULL AUTO.
* Behind him was George Bush who banned the importation of foreign made semi-automatic firearms
* George W. Bush said he would have extended the AWB put into place by Clinton, but Congress did not give him that luxury
* Today a nitwit, double talking traitor has promised the Democrats the sun, the moon and the stars on the gun control issue - even advocating circumventing Due Process do it!!!

Every time there is a catastrophe, the Ds and Rs do their song and dance routine over gun control and every time it ends with the Ds getting compromises and more gun control. The problem is, IT DON'T SAVE LIVES.

None of the pabulum puking political propaganda prostitutes from EITHER side has informed you that IF the current laws had been followed, Adam Lanza (who committed the Sandy Hook murders) along with Nickolas Cruz would have been stopped BEFORE the carnage began. The laws were in place, but the cops didn't do their job; the county school system didn't do its job; the FBI didn't do their job. And yet NOBODY with the county faces accountability, the cop who turned tail and ran faces no accountability (Hell he gets to retire and draw a pension); the FBI gets off scott free! Why pass more laws if they don't use the current ones to prevent this crap?

Then they single out those between 17 and 21, the NRA, Republicans, conservatives and everyone else that IS NOT RESPONSIBLE. It is time for gun owners to go on the offensive and offer ways to address the issue without gun control and those of you 17 - 21 could boycott joining the armed forces until the gun control hysteria stops and the government holds those who allowed the mass shootings to happen be held accountable AND consider the proposals that would reduce gun violence without infringing on our Rights. No point in serving a country that won't serve you, but throw you under the bus instead of admitting what the world should know.

Had the government done their jobs under existing law, those children would still be alive. You should not be held accountable for the government's failure to simply do their job.

But it’s all reasonable right?


Where are the hound folks asking why it’s okay that fat disgusting slobs like Trump and the political ruling class can ask an 18 year old kid to go spend his life on a useless cause like Afghanistan or Iraq, but we can’t give the. Beer? Can’t give them guns? But they can sure vote.


Stop electing liars and cowards like Trump. Assume any republicans are as big liars as the democrat ( some are worse) and stop voting for them.

WE have to put something better on the table and FORCE both sides to sit down and have a conversation that includes what I'm bringing to the table.

The objective should be to save lives, not build a government to oppress us and we willingly submit. The Ds and the Rs are not worthy of a vote and I'm not supporting the lesser of two evils any longer.

HOWEVER, that means you and I have to put something better on the table.

Pretty much. But one never gos to make a deal with what they will give away.

I'm not advocating giving a damn thing away. Is there a reason the right don't understand that? OR are they that determined to lose on this yet again?

Remind the Democrats of what THEY gained while giving nothing and make it mandatory: This year, give us what we want (and put it on the table.) Like the AWB, if it fails to produce, we can allow the law to expire and give the Dems what they want. But, I am that confident that we can reduce the rates of mass shootings (and shootings over-all) with minimal effort.

By not doing SOMETHING except putting up a defensive fight, you are inviting more encroachments on our Liberties. Let me tell you a little secret. Don't tell anyone else yet. This is just between you and I. IF we pressured the Republicans to adopt my idea, it wouldn't make two hoots in Hell what the Dems do (and them doing nothing is the best thing that could happen.)

Over the next year, mass shootings drop drastically and the Dems were invited to the table, didn't show up and they can't make those I was against the bill before I was for the bill (or however that works) speeches. Their stupidity of not having given us a bipartisan bill that worked means you can wave bye bye to the left in 2020.

 

[frigidweirdo]

And they also implemented a way of changing the Constitution because they knew things would change.

They didn't have ten school shootings in a month back then.

Again, George Washington answered you:

" If in the opinion of the People, the distribution or modification of the Constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." George Washington Farewell Address 1795

So, the legal, constitutional and proper way to get what you want is to amend the Constitution, NOT turn the courts loose to be your legislator. What's so hard to understand about that?

The things you're bitching about today could have been prevented HAD THE GOVERNMENT DONE THEIR DAMN JOB. They've had the tools, the laws, and the manpower. WTH is keeping them from using it? And what does ANY of that have to do with the OP?

Listen, I'm not arguing against what the Founding Fathers said.

Times were different back then and they made the Constitution flexible for a reason. That reason was that times would change and the needs of the people would be different.

Back then the US struggled to make an army. Back then dictators were the norm. Back then most people couldn't read or right, and most people didn't have the vote. Different times. Slavery was considered acceptable, it was a part of the US. That doesn't mean the US should have it now, does it?

You can always amend the Constitution, NOT throw it under the bus with an illegal / unconstitutional act.

For me, this is simple:

Ever since the first time I voted in a presidential election, when the Republicans got in office, the liberals forced them to compromise on gun control measures. There was Reagan with his major attack on the Second Amendment. Then George Bush burned his NRA membership card (after taking their money) and banned semi-automatic imports. Bush # II was willing to reinstate the AWB despite the FACT that it did not reduce crime or shootings. On and on the game has gone on, unchallenged. What we've accomplished is tor reduce the Republic into a socialistic democracy.

While the left keeps lying about what this is really about, I'm saying this:

IF this discussion is about saving lives, then join with me and let's talk about the facts. Let's ask why we allow the criminally insane to run amok in a free society. Let's talk about the fact that for every mentally ill person in a mental institution, we have more than TEN mentally ill people in prison and when they are let out, they are more screwed up than when they went in.

Let's take about the fact that is the mentally ill who are never properly treated being the ones who commit mass shootings while the dullards keep blaming the Second Amendment.

Let's talk about the fact that the laws and controls are in place, but the system does not do their job. With the latest mass shooting, the county government did not do their job; the state did not do their job; the LEO community was absent and asleep despite the reports, complaints and the obvious warning signs after going to this guy's home repeatedly. Why are we not talking about the cop who was allowed to retire and draw a full pension? How come we are giving the FBI a free pass for sitting on their backsides and DOING NOTHING?

Every time I try to have a thread about preventative measures, we have the liberals trying to make the damn thread about a referendum on gun control. Adding insult to injury, I was working on this issue BEFORE Sandy Hook, BEFORE Lakeland, Florida. I was lobbying for the issues I brought up here a full week BEFORE Nickolas Cruz. I remain convinced that the left has no empathy and don't give two hoots in Hell about saving lives. And I'm sick and tired of the Republicans who refuse to get involved, go on the offensive and get to the root of the problem (summed up in this post.)

I know... TLDR. THAT is why we're in this shape. This time, I'm just as determined to stop crazed killers BEFORE they strike as much as the left is determined to take peoples firearms. You're not going to win that battle in my lifetime, so you are always welcome to join me in getting preventative measures in place and stop the killing BEFORE it starts. OR, you can ignore my pleas and make this a never ending referendum. Would you, as a father rather win in a popularity poll OR work for a solution we could all live with?

This time I'm speaking to those 17 - 21 years of age because the media, the left, and anti-gunners want to marginalize them and take their Rights without bothering to even have a discussion about who has been responsible for the mass shootings. Firearms are no more to blame than a car is responsible for the drunk who wrecks and kills an entire family.

Yes, you can amend the Constitution. But the way the gun people make it out, you can't do that either.

Throwing it under the bus would imply that people know what it actually means, and in my experience a lot of people will twist the meaning to fit their own agenda, on both sides.

We can talk about facts.

The facts are 4 times more people die in the US than in other First World countries from murder.

Also the US's murder rate is 3/4 gun murders.

We can talk about mental illness and why the US doesn't really deal with it effectively. Why prisons are used as places to hide those with mental problems away from society.

We can talk about education too, and why it's severely lacking.

We can also talk about how none of this is ever going to change. Firstly because the political system is so broken that only two parties ever get in and they're so corrupt that they've legitimized this corruption. Secondly that the voters don't bother to vote properly and many of them reinforce the problems in society.

Yes, we can talk all of this. But nothing will ever change, and the more shootings take place in schools and the like, the more people are going to go after guns, because those who want to keep their guns aren't willing to change society in the manner necessary to stop the killings without taking away the guns. So guns will continue to be a target.

Either America is a nation of laws or it is not. Either the United States Constitution is the law of the land OR we are just a simple democracy where a popularity contest determines right from wrong.

If you insist on taking a dump on the Constitution, then every Right you cherish is at risk.

There are two avenues here:

Continue to take people's guns away incrementally until the Constitution has NO meaning OR start doing more than having this incessantly silly conversation.

The thing of it is, that all through my life (Reagan being the first president I could vote for) the Republicans have compromised with the Democrats, giving us absolute gun control on the installment plan.

At the same time, the Democrats never sit down and negotiate with us in good faith. But, now, for me, it is really frustrating. The Republicans KNOW, for a fact, that not only did gun control NOT WORK, but there exists better ways of addressing this issue so that we reduce deaths by firearms without the standard incremental attack on the Second Amendment.

I'm mad at the Republicans for not fighting a battle based on offense (the best defense being a good offense) and sick of the gun control argument as a whole. Neither side wants to stop the carnage. That is why we never advance beyond the same, old, tired, worn out, back and forth political jockeying It's time to get the nutjobs off the streets. It's time for the left to sit down and negotiate in good faith, not try that silly mind game about asking if the public should have access to this kind of weapon or another. Between you and I that one is a no brainer.

Most honest people will acknowledge that our forefathers were predominantly Christian. So, they founded a country based on Christian values. Jesus told his apostles that they were to carry a sword even if they had to hock their robes in order to do so. Earlier, in that same book of the Bible, it admonishes us: "When a strong man armed keeps his palace, his goods are in peace (Luke 11:21) Don't you think that when Jesus said that, he could not fathom a time in the future where people would use muskets that are far more dangerous than swords? Yet II Timothy 3:16 & 17 states that "16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

We have two choices: Rid this country of guns OR keep those we KNOW that pose a threat to society in protective custody, in a supervised environment. Sandy Hook could have been prevented with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. Nickolas Cruz in Lakeland, Florida could have been stopped with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. So could many other mass shooters been stopped before the carnage began. It's time to hold others accountable.

I agree.

The problem is that rights are being dumped on ALL THE DAMN TIME in the US.

Take laws that prevent gay people from getting married. The right doesn't have a problem with dumping the shit out of this one, does it?

 

[Humorme]

Again, George Washington answered you:

" If in the opinion of the People, the distribution or modification of the Constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." George Washington Farewell Address 1795

So, the legal, constitutional and proper way to get what you want is to amend the Constitution, NOT turn the courts loose to be your legislator. What's so hard to understand about that?

The things you're bitching about today could have been prevented HAD THE GOVERNMENT DONE THEIR DAMN JOB. They've had the tools, the laws, and the manpower. WTH is keeping them from using it? And what does ANY of that have to do with the OP?

Listen, I'm not arguing against what the Founding Fathers said.

Times were different back then and they made the Constitution flexible for a reason. That reason was that times would change and the needs of the people would be different.

Back then the US struggled to make an army. Back then dictators were the norm. Back then most people couldn't read or right, and most people didn't have the vote. Different times. Slavery was considered acceptable, it was a part of the US. That doesn't mean the US should have it now, does it?

You can always amend the Constitution, NOT throw it under the bus with an illegal / unconstitutional act.

For me, this is simple:

Ever since the first time I voted in a presidential election, when the Republicans got in office, the liberals forced them to compromise on gun control measures. There was Reagan with his major attack on the Second Amendment. Then George Bush burned his NRA membership card (after taking their money) and banned semi-automatic imports. Bush # II was willing to reinstate the AWB despite the FACT that it did not reduce crime or shootings. On and on the game has gone on, unchallenged. What we've accomplished is tor reduce the Republic into a socialistic democracy.

While the left keeps lying about what this is really about, I'm saying this:

IF this discussion is about saving lives, then join with me and let's talk about the facts. Let's ask why we allow the criminally insane to run amok in a free society. Let's talk about the fact that for every mentally ill person in a mental institution, we have more than TEN mentally ill people in prison and when they are let out, they are more screwed up than when they went in.

Let's take about the fact that is the mentally ill who are never properly treated being the ones who commit mass shootings while the dullards keep blaming the Second Amendment.

Let's talk about the fact that the laws and controls are in place, but the system does not do their job. With the latest mass shooting, the county government did not do their job; the state did not do their job; the LEO community was absent and asleep despite the reports, complaints and the obvious warning signs after going to this guy's home repeatedly. Why are we not talking about the cop who was allowed to retire and draw a full pension? How come we are giving the FBI a free pass for sitting on their backsides and DOING NOTHING?

Every time I try to have a thread about preventative measures, we have the liberals trying to make the damn thread about a referendum on gun control. Adding insult to injury, I was working on this issue BEFORE Sandy Hook, BEFORE Lakeland, Florida. I was lobbying for the issues I brought up here a full week BEFORE Nickolas Cruz. I remain convinced that the left has no empathy and don't give two hoots in Hell about saving lives. And I'm sick and tired of the Republicans who refuse to get involved, go on the offensive and get to the root of the problem (summed up in this post.)

I know... TLDR. THAT is why we're in this shape. This time, I'm just as determined to stop crazed killers BEFORE they strike as much as the left is determined to take peoples firearms. You're not going to win that battle in my lifetime, so you are always welcome to join me in getting preventative measures in place and stop the killing BEFORE it starts. OR, you can ignore my pleas and make this a never ending referendum. Would you, as a father rather win in a popularity poll OR work for a solution we could all live with?

This time I'm speaking to those 17 - 21 years of age because the media, the left, and anti-gunners want to marginalize them and take their Rights without bothering to even have a discussion about who has been responsible for the mass shootings. Firearms are no more to blame than a car is responsible for the drunk who wrecks and kills an entire family.

Yes, you can amend the Constitution. But the way the gun people make it out, you can't do that either.

Throwing it under the bus would imply that people know what it actually means, and in my experience a lot of people will twist the meaning to fit their own agenda, on both sides.

We can talk about facts.

The facts are 4 times more people die in the US than in other First World countries from murder.

Also the US's murder rate is 3/4 gun murders.

We can talk about mental illness and why the US doesn't really deal with it effectively. Why prisons are used as places to hide those with mental problems away from society.

We can talk about education too, and why it's severely lacking.

We can also talk about how none of this is ever going to change. Firstly because the political system is so broken that only two parties ever get in and they're so corrupt that they've legitimized this corruption. Secondly that the voters don't bother to vote properly and many of them reinforce the problems in society.

Yes, we can talk all of this. But nothing will ever change, and the more shootings take place in schools and the like, the more people are going to go after guns, because those who want to keep their guns aren't willing to change society in the manner necessary to stop the killings without taking away the guns. So guns will continue to be a target.

Either America is a nation of laws or it is not. Either the United States Constitution is the law of the land OR we are just a simple democracy where a popularity contest determines right from wrong.

If you insist on taking a dump on the Constitution, then every Right you cherish is at risk.

There are two avenues here:

Continue to take people's guns away incrementally until the Constitution has NO meaning OR start doing more than having this incessantly silly conversation.

The thing of it is, that all through my life (Reagan being the first president I could vote for) the Republicans have compromised with the Democrats, giving us absolute gun control on the installment plan.

At the same time, the Democrats never sit down and negotiate with us in good faith. But, now, for me, it is really frustrating. The Republicans KNOW, for a fact, that not only did gun control NOT WORK, but there exists better ways of addressing this issue so that we reduce deaths by firearms without the standard incremental attack on the Second Amendment.

I'm mad at the Republicans for not fighting a battle based on offense (the best defense being a good offense) and sick of the gun control argument as a whole. Neither side wants to stop the carnage. That is why we never advance beyond the same, old, tired, worn out, back and forth political jockeying It's time to get the nutjobs off the streets. It's time for the left to sit down and negotiate in good faith, not try that silly mind game about asking if the public should have access to this kind of weapon or another. Between you and I that one is a no brainer.

Most honest people will acknowledge that our forefathers were predominantly Christian. So, they founded a country based on Christian values. Jesus told his apostles that they were to carry a sword even if they had to hock their robes in order to do so. Earlier, in that same book of the Bible, it admonishes us: "When a strong man armed keeps his palace, his goods are in peace (Luke 11:21) Don't you think that when Jesus said that, he could not fathom a time in the future where people would use muskets that are far more dangerous than swords? Yet II Timothy 3:16 & 17 states that "16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

We have two choices: Rid this country of guns OR keep those we KNOW that pose a threat to society in protective custody, in a supervised environment. Sandy Hook could have been prevented with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. Nickolas Cruz in Lakeland, Florida could have been stopped with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. So could many other mass shooters been stopped before the carnage began. It's time to hold others accountable.

I agree.

The problem is that rights are being dumped on ALL THE DAMN TIME in the US.

Take laws that prevent gay people from getting married. The right doesn't have a problem with dumping the shit out of this one, does it?

So, if the right has a problem with gay marriage then, you support dismantling the Second Amendment in retaliation?

I do not agree when the government comes after ANY person's unalienable Rights. Both the left and the right have attacked me when I didn't see things their way, but in answer to your criticism:

You have a guaranteed Right to keep and bear Arms. Marriage, on the other hand, is a privilege granted by the state. If you disagree with the government on that point, you can have a marriage ceremony and then do a change of name. You won't get the privileges from the government, but you can get married. You should look it up.

In legal parlance, a license is permission from a governmental entity to do that which is otherwise illegal to do. So, if you are claiming a right, why are you asking for permission? I don't and that is why I'm asking 17 - 21 to consider their Rights... though it seems to be pissing a lot of tyrannical despots off.

 

[Humorme]

When people find the truth to be so funny, I feel like I missed the boat somewhere.

All the people OVER 21 just had to weigh in. This thread should serve as a wake up call for them. It's sad that so many people calling other's names cannot figure out the differences between Rights and privileges.

Those are the ones telling those under 21 they can't be trusted with their own Liberties. I've made my case. Thank God for the critics.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Listen, I'm not arguing against what the Founding Fathers said.

Times were different back then and they made the Constitution flexible for a reason. That reason was that times would change and the needs of the people would be different.

Back then the US struggled to make an army. Back then dictators were the norm. Back then most people couldn't read or right, and most people didn't have the vote. Different times. Slavery was considered acceptable, it was a part of the US. That doesn't mean the US should have it now, does it?

You can always amend the Constitution, NOT throw it under the bus with an illegal / unconstitutional act.

For me, this is simple:

Ever since the first time I voted in a presidential election, when the Republicans got in office, the liberals forced them to compromise on gun control measures. There was Reagan with his major attack on the Second Amendment. Then George Bush burned his NRA membership card (after taking their money) and banned semi-automatic imports. Bush # II was willing to reinstate the AWB despite the FACT that it did not reduce crime or shootings. On and on the game has gone on, unchallenged. What we've accomplished is tor reduce the Republic into a socialistic democracy.

While the left keeps lying about what this is really about, I'm saying this:

IF this discussion is about saving lives, then join with me and let's talk about the facts. Let's ask why we allow the criminally insane to run amok in a free society. Let's talk about the fact that for every mentally ill person in a mental institution, we have more than TEN mentally ill people in prison and when they are let out, they are more screwed up than when they went in.

Let's take about the fact that is the mentally ill who are never properly treated being the ones who commit mass shootings while the dullards keep blaming the Second Amendment.

Let's talk about the fact that the laws and controls are in place, but the system does not do their job. With the latest mass shooting, the county government did not do their job; the state did not do their job; the LEO community was absent and asleep despite the reports, complaints and the obvious warning signs after going to this guy's home repeatedly. Why are we not talking about the cop who was allowed to retire and draw a full pension? How come we are giving the FBI a free pass for sitting on their backsides and DOING NOTHING?

Every time I try to have a thread about preventative measures, we have the liberals trying to make the damn thread about a referendum on gun control. Adding insult to injury, I was working on this issue BEFORE Sandy Hook, BEFORE Lakeland, Florida. I was lobbying for the issues I brought up here a full week BEFORE Nickolas Cruz. I remain convinced that the left has no empathy and don't give two hoots in Hell about saving lives. And I'm sick and tired of the Republicans who refuse to get involved, go on the offensive and get to the root of the problem (summed up in this post.)

I know... TLDR. THAT is why we're in this shape. This time, I'm just as determined to stop crazed killers BEFORE they strike as much as the left is determined to take peoples firearms. You're not going to win that battle in my lifetime, so you are always welcome to join me in getting preventative measures in place and stop the killing BEFORE it starts. OR, you can ignore my pleas and make this a never ending referendum. Would you, as a father rather win in a popularity poll OR work for a solution we could all live with?

This time I'm speaking to those 17 - 21 years of age because the media, the left, and anti-gunners want to marginalize them and take their Rights without bothering to even have a discussion about who has been responsible for the mass shootings. Firearms are no more to blame than a car is responsible for the drunk who wrecks and kills an entire family.

Yes, you can amend the Constitution. But the way the gun people make it out, you can't do that either.

Throwing it under the bus would imply that people know what it actually means, and in my experience a lot of people will twist the meaning to fit their own agenda, on both sides.

We can talk about facts.

The facts are 4 times more people die in the US than in other First World countries from murder.

Also the US's murder rate is 3/4 gun murders.

We can talk about mental illness and why the US doesn't really deal with it effectively. Why prisons are used as places to hide those with mental problems away from society.

We can talk about education too, and why it's severely lacking.

We can also talk about how none of this is ever going to change. Firstly because the political system is so broken that only two parties ever get in and they're so corrupt that they've legitimized this corruption. Secondly that the voters don't bother to vote properly and many of them reinforce the problems in society.

Yes, we can talk all of this. But nothing will ever change, and the more shootings take place in schools and the like, the more people are going to go after guns, because those who want to keep their guns aren't willing to change society in the manner necessary to stop the killings without taking away the guns. So guns will continue to be a target.

Either America is a nation of laws or it is not. Either the United States Constitution is the law of the land OR we are just a simple democracy where a popularity contest determines right from wrong.

If you insist on taking a dump on the Constitution, then every Right you cherish is at risk.

There are two avenues here:

Continue to take people's guns away incrementally until the Constitution has NO meaning OR start doing more than having this incessantly silly conversation.

The thing of it is, that all through my life (Reagan being the first president I could vote for) the Republicans have compromised with the Democrats, giving us absolute gun control on the installment plan.

At the same time, the Democrats never sit down and negotiate with us in good faith. But, now, for me, it is really frustrating. The Republicans KNOW, for a fact, that not only did gun control NOT WORK, but there exists better ways of addressing this issue so that we reduce deaths by firearms without the standard incremental attack on the Second Amendment.

I'm mad at the Republicans for not fighting a battle based on offense (the best defense being a good offense) and sick of the gun control argument as a whole. Neither side wants to stop the carnage. That is why we never advance beyond the same, old, tired, worn out, back and forth political jockeying It's time to get the nutjobs off the streets. It's time for the left to sit down and negotiate in good faith, not try that silly mind game about asking if the public should have access to this kind of weapon or another. Between you and I that one is a no brainer.

Most honest people will acknowledge that our forefathers were predominantly Christian. So, they founded a country based on Christian values. Jesus told his apostles that they were to carry a sword even if they had to hock their robes in order to do so. Earlier, in that same book of the Bible, it admonishes us: "When a strong man armed keeps his palace, his goods are in peace (Luke 11:21) Don't you think that when Jesus said that, he could not fathom a time in the future where people would use muskets that are far more dangerous than swords? Yet II Timothy 3:16 & 17 states that "16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

We have two choices: Rid this country of guns OR keep those we KNOW that pose a threat to society in protective custody, in a supervised environment. Sandy Hook could have been prevented with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. Nickolas Cruz in Lakeland, Florida could have been stopped with the laws, tools, and technology we have in place. So could many other mass shooters been stopped before the carnage began. It's time to hold others accountable.

I agree.

The problem is that rights are being dumped on ALL THE DAMN TIME in the US.

Take laws that prevent gay people from getting married. The right doesn't have a problem with dumping the shit out of this one, does it?

So, if the right has a problem with gay marriage then, you support dismantling the Second Amendment in retaliation?

I do not agree when the government comes after ANY person's unalienable Rights. Both the left and the right have attacked me when I didn't see things their way, but in answer to your criticism:

You have a guaranteed Right to keep and bear Arms. Marriage, on the other hand, is a privilege granted by the state. If you disagree with the government on that point, you can have a marriage ceremony and then do a change of name. You won't get the privileges from the government, but you can get married. You should look it up.

In legal parlance, a license is permission from a governmental entity to do that which is otherwise illegal to do. So, if you are claiming a right, why are you asking for permission? I don't and that is why I'm asking 17 - 21 to consider their Rights... though it seems to be pissing a lot of tyrannical despots off.

No one is seeking to ‘dismantle’ the Second Amendment.

All the proposed firearm regulatory measures are perfectly consistent with current Second Amendment jurisprudence, including prohibiting those under 21 from possessing guns.

And marriage is in fact a fundamental right, not a ‘privilege’ ( Zablocki v Redhail (1978)).

Laws prohibiting same-sex couples from marrying were invalidated by the Supreme Court because they violated the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the 14th Amendment.

Should a law be enacted prohibiting those under 21 from possessing a firearm, they are at liberty to file suit in Federal court to seek relief.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

When people find the truth to be so funny, I feel like I missed the boat somewhere.

All the people OVER 21 just had to weigh in. This thread should serve as a wake up call for them. It's sad that so many people calling other's names cannot figure out the differences between Rights and privileges.

Those are the ones telling those under 21 they can't be trusted with their own Liberties. I've made my case. Thank God for the critics.

Given your ignorance as to what constitutes a right or a privilege, you’re in no position to be critical of others.