Gun ownership probable cause to for search and seizure?

[The Rabbi]

Because un-secured guns, even legally owned ones, make cops very uncomfortable during traffic stops.

unsecured? what the heck does it mean?

he had the right to have a gun.

would it be better to have it on his belt?

He has the right to carry a concealed gun in the state of Florida - not in Maryland.

And there was no reason to think he did have one in the state of MD.

 

[Geaux4it]

He said that it wasn't in the car.

She said that it could be in the car.

The officer took that as a "contradiction".

The other information is entirely irrelevant, because no information about gun purchases was "gathered".

The fact that the man had a CC permit is public information, and most certainly linked to his Driver's License - which is how the officer knew he owned a gun.

so? was he under arrest? under on-going investigation? under suspicion of committing a crime?

what's the big problem with contradiction? husband and wife remember almost everything differently.

why the heck did the cop need to search for the gun if the guy has a lawful permit to have it? Even if there were ten times more contradictions?!?

Because un-secured guns, even legally owned ones, make cops very uncomfortable during traffic stops.

Some yes, all no

-Geaux

 

[Geaux4it]

Because un-secured guns, even legally owned ones, make cops very uncomfortable during traffic stops.

unsecured? what the heck does it mean?

he had the right to have a gun.

would it be better to have it on his belt?

He has the right to carry a concealed gun in the state of Florida - not in Maryland.

Doc- Hopefully you have malpractice insurance because you're getting smoked here.

Do you realize the different type of CCW permits available and how they work?

I can wait

-Geaux

 

[theDoctorisIn]

unsecured? what the heck does it mean?

he had the right to have a gun.

would it be better to have it on his belt?

He has the right to carry a concealed gun in the state of Florida - not in Maryland.

Doc- Hopefully you have malpractice insurance because you're getting smoked here.

Do you realize the different type of CCW permits available and how they work?

I can wait

-Geaux

I don't really understand the question you're asking, but I do know that Maryland does not recognize CCW permits from Florida, nor from any other state.

Reciprocity

These states recognize Maryland permits: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Wisconsin
Maryland recognizes permits from: None

NRA-ILA | Maryland

 

[The Rabbi]

He has the right to carry a concealed gun in the state of Florida - not in Maryland.

Doc- Hopefully you have malpractice insurance because you're getting smoked here.

Do you realize the different type of CCW permits available and how they work?

I can wait

-Geaux

I don't really understand the question you're asking, but I do know that Maryland does not recognize CCW permits from Florida, nor from any other state.

Reciprocity

These states recognize Maryland permits: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Wisconsin
Maryland recognizes permits from: None

NRA-ILA | Maryland

True.
But what crime did the cop suspect was being committed that gave him authority to detain and search?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Doc- Hopefully you have malpractice insurance because you're getting smoked here.

Do you realize the different type of CCW permits available and how they work?

I can wait

-Geaux

I don't really understand the question you're asking, but I do know that Maryland does not recognize CCW permits from Florida, nor from any other state.

Reciprocity

These states recognize Maryland permits: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Wisconsin
Maryland recognizes permits from: None

NRA-ILA | Maryland

True.
But what crime did the cop suspect was being committed that gave him authority to detain and search?

None. The cop ran the license because he was out of State found out he had a CCW permit and then decided to pull him over. Then he demanded to know where the firearm was. When told it was home in a safe he got upset and so created a false claim of lies.

Further we know this was not normal nor acceptable behavior by the cop because the driver got profuse apologies all up the chain of command for that idiot cop.

Hopefully he gets fired.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Seriously man you got me on the most material aspect.

You are one super smart debater.

It just illustrates how little attention you pay to the actual situation, instead focusing all of your outrage on the ridiculous whiny-gun-nut rhetoric.

No it doesn't. I categorically listed the lengths the PD went to seize and dismantle the man's car from reading the article.

I misstated the state.

You can think you got one up about whiney gun-nut rhetoric.

But it is immaterial to the premise that a State can not use lawful gun ownership as a means of unwarranted probable cause.

There is law preventing LE from gathering and retaining gun purchase info.

As of July 2004, approved purchaser information is no longer kept for ninety days but is instead destroyed within twenty-four hours of the official NICS response to the dealer.

Incorrect.

This has nothing to do with purchasing a firearm, it has to do with Florida law concerning possessing a concealed weapon license:

(2)Information made confidential and exempt by this section shall be disclosed:

(a)With the express written consent of the applicant or licensee or his or her legally authorized representative.

(b)By court order upon a showing of good cause.

(c)Upon request by a law enforcement agency in connection with the performance of lawful duties, which shall include access to any automated database containing such information maintained by the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

And unlike Florida, it’s unlawful in Maryland to transport a gun in a private vehicle absent a permit from that state:

It is also unlawful for any person to knowingly transport a handgun in any vehicle traveling on public roads, highways, waterways or airways, or upon roads or parking lots generally used by the public.

NRA-ILA | Maryland

There is no reciprocity with regard to Florida and Maryland concealed weapon permits, consequently any firearm in the car would be illegal in Maryland even with a Florida CWL.

Moreover, 4th Amendment search and seizure jurisprudence is much broader with regard to motor vehicles and the occupants’ expectation of privacy, where probable cause is not necessary to make a Terry Stop based on reasonable suspicion.

Indeed, the conflicting responses from the driver and the wife – who admitted there was a firearm in the SUV, and where that was not the case is irrelevant – manifested reasonable suspicion and warranted the search.

Any law enforcement officer can ask you anything he wants, how you respond often makes all the difference.

However trite and a cliché, it is nonetheless true: with rights come responsibilities, and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

It might be argued that it’s unreasonable to expect the driver and wife to anticipate the stop and make sure they had their stories straight beforehand.

Perhaps.

But it can also be argued that as a concealed weapon license holder the driver should have been aware of the fact that Florida law allows the state to release his license information to any law enforcement agency, that Maryland has no reciprocity with Florida, and at least make his wife aware of the fact that there was no gun in the SUV should they be stopped.

Had he taken this simple precaution the incident likely would not have occurred.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It just illustrates how little attention you pay to the actual situation, instead focusing all of your outrage on the ridiculous whiny-gun-nut rhetoric.

No it doesn't. I categorically listed the lengths the PD went to seize and dismantle the man's car from reading the article.

I misstated the state.

You can think you got one up about whiney gun-nut rhetoric.

But it is immaterial to the premise that a State can not use lawful gun ownership as a means of unwarranted probable cause.

There is law preventing LE from gathering and retaining gun purchase info.

As of July 2004, approved purchaser information is no longer kept for ninety days but is instead destroyed within twenty-four hours of the official NICS response to the dealer.

Incorrect.

This has nothing to do with purchasing a firearm, it has to do with Florida law concerning possessing a concealed weapon license:

(2)Information made confidential and exempt by this section shall be disclosed:

(a)With the express written consent of the applicant or licensee or his or her legally authorized representative.

(b)By court order upon a showing of good cause.

(c)Upon request by a law enforcement agency in connection with the performance of lawful duties, which shall include access to any automated database containing such information maintained by the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

And unlike Florida, it’s unlawful in Maryland to transport a gun in a private vehicle absent a permit from that state:

It is also unlawful for any person to knowingly transport a handgun in any vehicle traveling on public roads, highways, waterways or airways, or upon roads or parking lots generally used by the public.

NRA-ILA | Maryland

There is no reciprocity with regard to Florida and Maryland concealed weapon permits, consequently any firearm in the car would be illegal in Maryland even with a Florida CWL.

Moreover, 4th Amendment search and seizure jurisprudence is much broader with regard to motor vehicles and the occupants’ expectation of privacy, where probable cause is not necessary to make a Terry Stop based on reasonable suspicion.

Indeed, the conflicting responses from the driver and the wife – who admitted there was a firearm in the SUV, and where that was not the case is irrelevant – manifested reasonable suspicion and warranted the search.

Any law enforcement officer can ask you anything he wants, how you respond often makes all the difference.

However trite and a cliché, it is nonetheless true: with rights come responsibilities, and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

It might be argued that it’s unreasonable to expect the driver and wife to anticipate the stop and make sure they had their stories straight beforehand.

Perhaps.

But it can also be argued that as a concealed weapon license holder the driver should have been aware of the fact that Florida law allows the state to release his license information to any law enforcement agency, that Maryland has no reciprocity with Florida, and at least make his wife aware of the fact that there was no gun in the SUV should they be stopped.

Had he taken this simple precaution the incident likely would not have occurred.

With the glaring exception that the cop had no legal reason to pull him over.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I don't really understand the question you're asking, but I do know that Maryland does not recognize CCW permits from Florida, nor from any other state.



NRA-ILA | Maryland

True.
But what crime did the cop suspect was being committed that gave him authority to detain and search?

None. The cop ran the license because he was out of State found out he had a CCW permit and then decided to pull him over. Then he demanded to know where the firearm was. When told it was home in a safe he got upset and so created a false claim of lies.

Further we know this was not normal nor acceptable behavior by the cop because the driver got profuse apologies all up the chain of command for that idiot cop.

Hopefully he gets fired.

Also incorrect.

Again, the wife stated there was a firearm in the car.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Doc- Hopefully you have malpractice insurance because you're getting smoked here.

Do you realize the different type of CCW permits available and how they work?

I can wait

-Geaux

I don't really understand the question you're asking, but I do know that Maryland does not recognize CCW permits from Florida, nor from any other state.

Reciprocity

These states recognize Maryland permits: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Wisconsin
Maryland recognizes permits from: None

NRA-ILA | Maryland

True.
But what crime did the cop suspect was being committed that gave him authority to detain and search?

Transporting a firearm in Maryland absent a permit.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

True.
But what crime did the cop suspect was being committed that gave him authority to detain and search?

None. The cop ran the license because he was out of State found out he had a CCW permit and then decided to pull him over. Then he demanded to know where the firearm was. When told it was home in a safe he got upset and so created a false claim of lies.

Further we know this was not normal nor acceptable behavior by the cop because the driver got profuse apologies all up the chain of command for that idiot cop.

Hopefully he gets fired.

Also incorrect.

Again, the wife stated there was a firearm in the car.

The man broke no laws. As evidenced AGAIN, by the fact no ticket was issued and his superiors APOLOGIZED for his behavior.

It is illegal to run the license learn he has a CCW and then pull him over to see if the firearm is on him. The incident never should have happened. The Cop had no reasonable reason to pull him over.

Again I repeat this is evidenced by the profuse apologizes issued to the driver by the cops superiors.

 

[brfrad]

I don't really understand the question you're asking, but I do know that Maryland does not recognize CCW permits from Florida, nor from any other state.



True.
But what crime did the cop suspect was being committed that gave him authority to detain and search?

Transporting a firearm in Maryland absent a permit.

You cannot pull over every single out of state vehicle whose owner has a CCW permit as they might not possess the firearm at that point. We have no idea what warning he gave them. He should have asked right away why he was being pulled over. The cop should have told him right away why he pulled him over. If it was because he owned a CCW permit it is not legal.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Because un-secured guns, even legally owned ones, make cops very uncomfortable during traffic stops.

unsecured? what the heck does it mean?

he had the right to have a gun.

would it be better to have it on his belt?

He has the right to carry a concealed gun in the state of Florida - not in Maryland.

Correct.

Maryland has no constitutional provision granting a “right to bear arms.”

CARRYING AND TRANSPORTATION IN VEHICLES

It is unlawful for any person without a permit…to knowingly transport a handgun in any vehicle traveling on public roads, highways, waterways or airways, or upon roads or parking lots generally used by the public.

NRA-ILA | Maryland

One may ‘hate on’ Maryland all he wants for being ‘anti-gun,’ but the officer was conducting an investigation in accordance with his state’s laws; again, the conflicting responses from the driver and wife, along with the wife’s admission that there was a firearm in the car, manifested reasonable suspicion for the search – not arrest or detention, which would require probable cause.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

If I get pulled over, and the cop sees me seeming to hide something under the seat, that's not a crime.

But it is probable cause to search the car.

Reasonable suspicion, actually, per Terry v. Ohio (1968) – ‘stop and frisk,’ but in essence correct, particularly in the context of the lowered expectation of privacy when in a motor vehicle.

 

[brfrad]

unsecured? what the heck does it mean?

he had the right to have a gun.

would it be better to have it on his belt?

He has the right to carry a concealed gun in the state of Florida - not in Maryland.

Correct.

Maryland has no constitutional provision granting a “right to bear arms.”

CARRYING AND TRANSPORTATION IN VEHICLES

It is unlawful for any person without a permit…to knowingly transport a handgun in any vehicle traveling on public roads, highways, waterways or airways, or upon roads or parking lots generally used by the public.

One may ‘hate on’ Maryland all he wants for being ‘anti-gun,’ but the officer was conducting an investigation in accordance with his state’s laws; again, the conflicting responses from the driver and wife, along with the wife’s admission that there was a firearm in the car, manifested reasonable suspicion for the search – not arrest or detention, which would require probable cause.

Maryland has to abide by the U.S. constitution first. If it is not in the U.S. constitution they have the legal ability to follow whatever laws they choose. Since the "right to bear arms," they must abide by the right for people to bear arms, whether they have stricter gun laws or not. In fact if he chose to push it, he could take this to court under the 2nd amendment for the right to bear shall not be infringed, and it doesn't matter what state you are driving through.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

unsecured? what the heck does it mean?

he had the right to have a gun.

would it be better to have it on his belt?

He has the right to carry a concealed gun in the state of Florida - not in Maryland.

Correct.

Maryland has no constitutional provision granting a “right to bear arms.”

CARRYING AND TRANSPORTATION IN VEHICLES

It is unlawful for any person without a permit…to knowingly transport a handgun in any vehicle traveling on public roads, highways, waterways or airways, or upon roads or parking lots generally used by the public.

NRA-ILA | Maryland

One may ‘hate on’ Maryland all he wants for being ‘anti-gun,’ but the officer was conducting an investigation in accordance with his state’s laws; again, the conflicting responses from the driver and wife, along with the wife’s admission that there was a firearm in the car, manifested reasonable suspicion for the search – not arrest or detention, which would require probable cause.

It seems I need to repeat this. The cop had no legal right to pull him over. He can NOT run the license plate and then discover he has a CCW and then pull him over to find out if it is on him.

This is evidenced by the FACT his superiors all APOLOGIZED for the incident.

 

[SwimExpert]

And unlike Florida, it’s unlawful in Maryland to transport a gun in a private vehicle absent a permit from that state

Not always. There are circumstances in which a person can transport a hand gun in a vehicle.

There is no reciprocity with regard to Florida and Maryland concealed weapon permits, consequently any firearm in the car would be illegal in Maryland even with a Florida CWL.

Whether or not there is any reciprocity is irrelevant. The officer's actions were based exclusively on the fact that the man owned a gun. Nothing more.

Moreover, 4th Amendment search and seizure jurisprudence is much broader with regard to motor vehicles and the occupants’ expectation of privacy, where probable cause is not necessary to make a Terry Stop based on reasonable suspicion.

Terry stops, based on reasonable suspicion, also have a multiplicity of necessary criteria. And the suspicion must be articulable and objective.

Indeed, the conflicting responses from the driver and the wife – who admitted there was a firearm in the SUV, and where that was not the case is irrelevant – manifested reasonable suspicion and warranted the search.

Except that the officer had no legal cause to require the driver to exit the vehicle.

Any law enforcement officer can ask you anything he wants, how you respond often makes all the difference.

An officer cannot prolong a traffic stop for the sake of a fishing expedition. And he cannot require you to exit a vehicle in order to carry out a fishing expedition.

 

[OKTexas]

The wife stating that the gun was in the in car is what prompted, and justified, the search.

Exactly what justified the stop in the first place? He said he wasn't violating any laws. The cop violated the mans 4 amendment rights and should be prosecuted for 4 counts of kidnapping and false imprisonment. He had no right to stop and hold them.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Of course, if the driver believes his civil rights were violated, he’s at liberty to file suit in Federal court.

But until a Federal court rules otherwise, no civil rights violations have occurred.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There is much more to the story.