Guantanamo-a disgrace to the human race

[jon_forward]

Invaded? [izewideopen] you need to look this word up. just watched CNN and they said that if the combatants were in uniform they were to be treated as P.O.W.'s, if in anything but uniform they were to be treated as terrorist. live be the sword die by it. I feel they are being more coddled at gitmo then they should be.were all those people in NY treated fairly on 9/11? also didnt take long to get this post politicalized. Jail in most countrys is much worse then whats going on in gitmo. and even in war there is honor,not so with terrorist.

 

[Sevendogs]

I would not worry about thouse Muslims, beause, you know, they are there because they kill... It is a pure pragmatic approach. In fact, dealing with suicide bombers one way is good and it is to kill them first, like insects. You see how many new suicide bombers are being indoctrinated by Muslim clerics in Pakistan and Indonesia. They must be closed ASAP. I would not mind to get their teachers in jail on some secure island.

 

[janeeng]

I don't think there are going to be too many on here that are going to agree that these losers are being treated wrong, or should be treated in any other way - I give the soldiers credit, in feeding them, I would get throw out, I would have to put some stuff in their food before feeding them. Sorry, these are not people that are trying to stand before their Country and protect it, these are animals that are set out to KILL and that's it - doesn't matter who they kill, as long as it's a crowd. And right, think back to 9/11, think of how well those victims were treated! and people are going to sit and complain because of the way YOU THINK Guantanamo is treating killers!!!! CAGE THEM UP!!!! I think actually the US is saving them, by now, if they were loose, they probably would have blown themselves up by now, so in a way, I think they are being treated better than being out and loose.

 

[yamar]

the detainees have been brought to GITMO because they sought war agsinst "us".

they are niether being starved nor being treated inhumanely; please do not attempt to place a holocaust spin upon the situation.

I'll be down in GITMO myself in January...and you can rest assured, I am no Canadian.

It's a very scary time upon us, folks...if we don't buck up now, we'll be witnessing Howard Dean handing the USA over to the rest of the "world".

Goodnight.

-Mike (a very lonely right winger in western Mass)

 

[jimnyc]

Welcome to the board, yamar

 

[Psychoblues]

Yeah, the chickenhawks reply.

I can look at the responses here and pick out the veterans. I mean the actual war veterans.

In a hundred or so years this travesty of a war and this travesty of a presidential administration will be ridiculed and put forth as a spectacle and a dilemma for which to avoid at all costs. But that's how this administration came to be in the first place, didn't it?

I am more ashamed of the America I see now than the America I envisioned and that I fought my heart out for most of my adult life. We are not free so why should we expect anyone else to be?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Psychoblues
Yeah, the chickenhawks reply.

I can look at the responses here and pick out the veterans. I mean the actual war veterans.

Psycho, you might have earned the right to call yourself a veteran, but you HAVE NOT earned the right to ridicule others. I take everything people post on the internet with a grain of salt, and that includes your supposed resume.

 

[lilcountriegal]

I can look at the responses here and pick out the veterans. I mean the actual war veterans.

Really Psycho, this has nothing to do with veteran status. I have MANY family and friends that served in both war and peacetime, some current, some not. EACH of their opinions vary on many topics, but what all veterans should hold dear is the dedication to country and family, which is unanimous among them all. If this means weeding people out of Guantanamo Bay, then so be it. I suspect your post leans more toward political affiliation than love of One's Country. But, as this is a message board, you are entitled to your opinion. Just remember the good 'ol saying... opinions are like assholes; everyone has one.

 

[Psychoblues]

I admit, my response there was harsh and even out of line. But to be very honest with you, I know of no combat vet, including a few Generals, that relish any part of the combat experience. There are no "Patton's" that I've ever met and I've met some very brave and purposeful people.

 

[janeeng]

lil, that had to sum it all up!!! BTW Physco, you would be surprised on some of the members on this board, that like you, are veterans, and have very different views than you. And, you can't take that status away from them, being their views are different.

If you like, I can point out some of the members, who are highly respected on this board, who are VETERANS, and might find your views very wrong.

NightTrain - Veteran - and a great guy!
Gop-Jeff - Veteran - and another great guy!
dmp - Veteran - and although he is on here much, another great guy!!!

these are just three, some have been on here and left, but the three that I have mentioned are VETERANS and deserve to be called just that.

BTW - if I left anyone out, please correct me and I appologize!

 

[dijetlo]

Originally posted by janeeng
BTW - if I left anyone out, please correct me and I appologize!

I served for the United States and in part, to maintain a tradition that's been in my family since the civil war. The difference between love of country and love of president is significant, janeeng. I served under Bush 41 and Clinton, neither impacted my dedication to my duties. My oldest daughter recently mentioned the service, I told her no. While I still love my country, my kin wont be sacrificing any more blood (if I have anything to say about it.). Let those who profit from an endevour bare the cost of it, isn't that one of the tennents of capitalism ?

 

[dijetlo]

Originally posted by yamar
the detainees have been brought to GITMO because they sought war agsinst "us".

Welcome to the board, yamar.
They were largely captured fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan, a handful of prisoners netted in police raids are also in attendance plus whatever they've been shipping over from Iraq. Keep in mind the Iraqi detainees do not get a trial before they win their free trip to the caribean. The government claims all of them have terrorist connections, but will not specify what the connections are or even fully account for the prisoners in the facility.
The thing I think your skipping over here, Yamar, is Gitmo is a "secret" prison. I don't cotton to "secret prisons".

ibid
they are niether being starved nor being treated inhumanely; please do not attempt to place a holocaust spin upon the situation.

They are subjected to sleep deprivation, that much the military has admitted (humane treatment just hopped out the widow, that's torture). The red cross is not allowed access to all the prisoners, which is a requirement of the geneva convention. They may well be convicted and executed using a drumhead trial as the pretext. Regardless of who or what they are, we must remain what we are. Fair, just and unafraid of the truth. The truth is our only effective weapon in the war on terror.

ibid
It's a very scary time upon us, folks...if we don't buck up now, we'll be witnessing Howard Dean handing the USA over to the rest of the "world".

I take it you think Dean is the likely Dem candidate? Why would he hand over the US to the rest of the world?

-Mike (a very lonely right winger in western Mass)

Move east, young man...I recall Boston was loaded with babes and they all have that cute accent.

 

[Psychoblues]

Thank you, janeeng, for pointing out the three vets. I am certain there are vets and many vets that hold different views than my own. That is but one of the reasons we are vets. To protect the rights of all American citizens to hold opposing or unigue views. At least that was the ideology that most of us served to protect.

But I'm a lot older now and my views are substantially different than they were just a few years ago. I have learned to read a lot more, contemplate the ulterior motives that drive politics and politicians and wars. I am offended by the hypocrisies that I see coming from the very ones that so loudly taut the accolades of this war and this prez.

As for most of the prisoners at Gitmo I agree that they should be there. They are for the most part the warriors for bin Laden and think they are warriors for their God. That is precisely why I am very glad that we have the separation of church and state to the degree that we do in this country, but that is another long and controversial subject.

Thanks again

 

[Lefty Wilbury]

theres a problem with the arguements in this thread with respect to saying the people at gitmo were defending their land from forgien invaders: their the forgien invaders. they taliban is almost 100% made up of arabs, pakistanis and others there are very few afghans who were involved with the taliban. with the exception of a few warlords,who really didn't fight on behalf of the taliban they were just paid off not to fight the taliban. in fact most of the people in gitmo have NO country to call home since most of their citizenships have been revoked by their country of origins. some just denouced their country as well saying they don't recongnize them as well. so you can't send them home, can't call them pow's since their not part of a standing army in any sense of the word.

 

[IzeWideOpen]

Glad to see dijetlo knows what he is talking about. In response to the 9\11 thing we in the UK have been the victim of more terroist attacks then you in the US and we do not not respond by going to war with there counrties of origin. Further more 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Araibia yet u attack Afganistan..........strange

 

[t63094]

Not a chance I feel the same way. How would you suggest that we deal with these pan-Arabic Islamists? They want all Muslim countries to be under sharia and some of the more extreme (more extreme than the others, which are pretty far out there) want that for the world. I don't know about you, but that is a bad idea.

If we ship them back the their countries, half of them will be let go immediately to cause more mayhem because their governments tacitly approve their goals or the politicians are bought and paid for by rich Arabs. The UN is useless when it comes to hardcore policing.

 

[dijetlo]

Originally posted by t63094
Not a chance I feel the same way. How would you suggest that we deal with these pan-Arabic Islamists?

Sentence them to prison until they are harmless little old men, if they've done something that warrants the punishment and we can prove it. The idea that you can imprison someone solely on their beleifs and idealogy is counter to what America has always held to be a human right. The Terrorists hope we become a oppressive, totalitarian regime with secret prisons and mock trials. They pray for the world to hate us and turn away from us, if we are not careful we will grant them their wish.

ibid
If we ship them back the their countries, half of them will be let go immediately to cause more mayhem because their governments tacitly approve their goals or the politicians are bought and paid for by rich Arabs.

I would not dispute that, since it is possible that is in fact what would happen. I thought your post was very cogent and well thought out. On one level, I wholeheartedly agree with it. In the larger picture though, which is more valuable, our reputation around the world as a fair-minded people dedicated to justice or the assurance we wont see these guys again? For this argument, that is where the line breaks. I think everybody wants both, but we're probably going to have to pick one.
BTW t63094, welcome to the board.

ibid
The UN is useless when it comes to hardcore policing.

The UN is as strong as we make it. I think that if the UN were more involved with Iraq we could more easily curb the resisitance. Colin Powell agrees so one can assume GWB wants the UN to participate more as well. In the third world, the UN is a highly respected, much loved organization. If it were policing Iraq instead of the US/GB we might get the Iraqi people to cooperate with our efforts to root out the resistance and remove the occupation in favor of a democracy.

 

[IzeWideOpen]

well said

 

[t63094]

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Posted by dijetlo:
Sentence them to prison until they are harmless little old men, if they've done something that warrants the punishment and we can prove it. The idea that you can imprison someone solely on their beleifs and idealogy is counter to what America has always held to be a human right. The Terrorists hope we become a oppressive, totalitarian regime with secret prisons and mock trials. They pray for the world to hate us and turn away from us, if we are not careful we will grant them their wish.>>
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I hear you on that. However, I will give the US Government the benefit of some doubt and believe that most of the people in Guantanamo Bay are there for a reason other than they are simply Muslim. They were probably caught fighting against us and that makes them POW's, right? They seem very willing to die in their cause and do we need to give them a second chance at taking more of our people out? Did we give captured Iraqi's in Gulf War I a civilian lawyer? We stuck them in POW camps.

I've given some thought of trials for these people. Where do you try them and for what? Their countries are not at war with us (although the fighters might be there with tacit approval). Do you try them for attempted murder? Or murder? Most of these people were captured on a battlefield, not on the Streets of San Francisco.

I certainly don't know what the answer is, but our civilian law is not going to cover this very well. This is an imperfect solution, but it's the least worst one that I can think of.

 

[IzeWideOpen]

Originally posted by t63094
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Posted by dijetlo:
Sentence them to prison until they are harmless little old men, if they've done something that warrants the punishment and we can prove it. The idea that you can imprison someone solely on their beleifs and idealogy is counter to what America has always held to be a human right. The Terrorists hope we become a oppressive, totalitarian regime with secret prisons and mock trials. They pray for the world to hate us and turn away from us, if we are not careful we will grant them their wish.>>
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I hear you on that. However, I will give the US Government the benefit of some doubt and believe that most of the people in Guantanamo Bay are there for a reason other than they are simply Muslim. They were probably caught fighting against us and that makes them POW's, right? They seem very willing to die in their cause and do we need to give them a second chance at taking more of our people out? Did we give captured Iraqi's in Gulf War I a civilian lawyer? We stuck them in POW camps.

I've given some thought of trials for these people. Where do you try them and for what? Their countries are not at war with us (although the fighters might be there with tacit approval). Do you try them for attempted murder? Or murder? Most of these people were captured on a battlefield, not on the Streets of San Francisco.

I certainly don't know what the answer is, but our civilian law is not going to cover this very well. This is an imperfect solution, but it's the least worst one that I can think of.

You make some fair points but do you not think that they should at least be kept in human conditions with access to an independent soliciter whilst getting a fair trial?