GopJeff and the Person(s) in the Trinity
- Thread starter ajwps
- Start date
- Status
N
NewGuy
Guest
For clarification, just as I posted:
http://www.earth-history.com/Roman/
That means 2 in Rome, one in Italy.
Rome was the large compilation of Italy and the other territories.
That means Rome is the Biblical reference if it was "the WORLD".
If Rome had 2 instances, one of the 2 had to be the reference if not both.
These 2 occurred in a 50 year span. Considering we do not know when they ended, we do not know the length of each.
We DO know your reference points to a max of 2 years for MANY famines 400 years earlier.
You show famines, I point to GREAT famines. -And "World WIDE".
It really doesn't matter anymore in detail than that. The prophecy is proven no matter what clarifier is put up.
http://www.earth-history.com/Roman/
That means 2 in Rome, one in Italy.
Rome was the large compilation of Italy and the other territories.
That means Rome is the Biblical reference if it was "the WORLD".
If Rome had 2 instances, one of the 2 had to be the reference if not both.
These 2 occurred in a 50 year span. Considering we do not know when they ended, we do not know the length of each.
We DO know your reference points to a max of 2 years for MANY famines 400 years earlier.
You show famines, I point to GREAT famines. -And "World WIDE".
It really doesn't matter anymore in detail than that. The prophecy is proven no matter what clarifier is put up.
Yurt
Gold Member
Couple of points ajwps,
how could they remember what had been said or happened during Jesus time on earth? People of that age today can't even remember eating their lunch ten minutes ago.
The above is from one of your ealier quotes.
First, it is absolutely incorrect to compare the memory of people today with those 2000 years ago. With so much mass media people barely remember what happened on 9/11. Back then, it was not so. In fact, before there was mass education, most people did not know how to read or write. So history was past down via orally. This custom is still practiced in many indigengous tribes. So the fact that the story was told orally then written down at a later date is really no big deal, if you consider the time period, which you must, because it is not at all comparable to today.
Second, do agree that "water can simultaneously be liquid, gas, and solid. Each of the three expressions of water is different, but each is also water." Do you???????
how could they remember what had been said or happened during Jesus time on earth? People of that age today can't even remember eating their lunch ten minutes ago.
The above is from one of your ealier quotes.
First, it is absolutely incorrect to compare the memory of people today with those 2000 years ago. With so much mass media people barely remember what happened on 9/11. Back then, it was not so. In fact, before there was mass education, most people did not know how to read or write. So history was past down via orally. This custom is still practiced in many indigengous tribes. So the fact that the story was told orally then written down at a later date is really no big deal, if you consider the time period, which you must, because it is not at all comparable to today.
Second, do agree that "water can simultaneously be liquid, gas, and solid. Each of the three expressions of water is different, but each is also water." Do you???????
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #84
Couple of points ajwps,
how could they remember what had been said or happened during Jesus time on earth? People of that age today can't even remember eating their lunch ten minutes ago.
The above is from one of your ealier quotes.
First, it is absolutely incorrect to compare the memory of people today with those 2000 years ago. With so much mass media people barely remember what happened on 9/11. Back then, it was not so. In fact, before there was mass education, most people did not know how to read or write. So history was past down via orally. This custom is still practiced in many indigengous tribes. So the fact that the story was told orally then written down at a later date is really no big deal, if you consider the time period, which you must, because it is not at all comparable to today.
I thank you for your input. I am trying to comprehend what you are insinuating about elderly peoples memories more than 2 eons ago. Are you saying that because the people in Jesus time were not educated (which is now proven false by the famous Dead Sea Scrolls) and therefore had to pass stories on from one person to another person to another person and finally to a group of men who sat down to write down what they gleaned from word to word accounts are somehow accurate?
Do you have any proof whatsoever that eighty or ninety year old people in the days of Jesus could remember more than they have to go to the bathroom? In the days of Jesus, the life span of men were not like, as you say, comparable to today. The chances that a man named Paul of Tarsus, who never knew the live Jesus, got a vision on a road from which the Gospel writers gleaned what a man named Jesus said sixty or seventy years in the past is less than nil unless you believe hard enough and clap your heels together three times.
Unless Jesus actually appeared to this persecutor of Christians in a magical vision, the chances are that any resemblence to the man Jesus and his actions were purely fictional.
Second, do agree that "water can simultaneously be liquid, gas, and solid. Each of the three expressions of water is different, but each is also water." Do you???????
Are you trying to compare three god personalities to three various states of matter subatomic particles?
If I told you that there were fish in the sea, would you compare this visual image to a pantheon of gods????? All the swimming fish is still the expressions of FISH.....
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #85
For clarification, just as I posted:
http://www.earth-history.com/Roman/
That means 2 in Rome, one in Italy. Rome was the large compilation of Italy and the other territories. That means Rome is the Biblical reference if it was "the WORLD". If Rome had 2 instances, one of the 2 had to be the reference if not both.
These 2 occurred in a 50 year span. Considering we do not know when they ended, we do not know the length of each.
We DO know your reference points to a max of 2 years for MANY famines 400 years earlier. You show famines, I point to GREAT famines. -And "World WIDE".
It really doesn't matter anymore in detail than that. The prophecy is proven no matter what clarifier is put up.
You are really a great thinker and philospher.
You are asked to show one prophecy from the New Testament that came to pass many years after being prophecied.
You point out something about a GREAT DEARTH and suddenly, mysteriously you find a famine in the time of Claudius Ceasar.
Sorry but any attempt to link this as a Gospel prophecy is clearly a stretch to the imagination of anyone. You have seen that there were many famines (none greater than another to those who starve in them) in the time span you deliniated but famines are common even to this day in certain parts of the world.
Try this prophecy on for size. Even this prophecy "appears" to have happened thousands of years after put to papyrus.
Do you remember the recent attack against Sadaam when the USA (country of NORTH America) sent SMART missles into Iraq that never missed their marks like the old conventional carpet bombings?
Even this prophecy may or may not be that as written by the Prophet Jeremiah.
N
NewGuy
Guest
Suddenly and mysteriously?
The prophecy not only suited your criteria, but also was mentioned to you once before by me. The only thing sudden or mysterious is that you never bothered to check history as proof for the prophecy.
NOW I have done that for you. You should be happy. I have just given you reason to give up since you claim the entire New Testament false based on lack of prophecy.
You haven't proven it NOT prophecy.
I guess you ignore the obvious.
That is an eviable quality for a doctor.
Common?
What does that have to do with prophecy?
PREDICTABLILITY is what would make this prophecy invalid.
It was the only famine situation in Rome for 400 years and happened just as claimed. In addition, if it could be predicted, would the leaders let it happen?
They would lose taxes and weaken the military strength.
They were not that dumb.
The prophecy still stands solid.
No.
The buck stops here.
You claimed the New Testament false by not having any prophecy and now that you have been proven wrong, your argument holds no water.
We go no further until you prove it wrong.
If you keep discussing the Bible or New Testament invalid, I will continue to hammer this into you until you do prove this prophecy invalid.
IF you underestimate my resolve, you may do it to your detriment.
5stringJeff
Senior Member
I gave you four of them, which you have ignored for two pages now.
Which one, specifically, is this?
EDIT: I didn't see the passage when I quoted your message. More to follow on this passage.
N
NewGuy
Guest
He couldn't even paste it right.
AJ, if you want to argue from another's playbook, at least get your verse numbers straight.
It is verse 9, not 10:
AJ, if you want to argue from another's playbook, at least get your verse numbers straight.
It is verse 9, not 10:
Yurt
Gold Member
Once again, you fail to answer the question. Instead you mock, then you give some babble about fish in the sea being comparable to an image of pantheon gods? No disrespect, but honestly I fail to see any logical connection between that statement and my statement about water. Fish in the sea has nothing to do with the 3 expressions of water.
I never said people weren't educated 2000 years ago, however, the educational level is doubtfully equal to that of today's standard. I will research this more, as I learned this in school a few years ago. However, I ask you this, do you honestly believe that printed media was as widely used 2000 years ago as it is today? I guess my point was, not necessarily whether an 80 year old could remember this or that, rather, whether people were more likely to convey information orally due the lack of mass media.
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #90
Once again, you fail to answer the question. Instead you mock, then you give some babble about fish in the sea being comparable to an image of pantheon gods? No disrespect, but honestly I fail to see any logical connection between that statement and my statement about water. Fish in the sea has nothing to do with the 3 expressions of water.
I never said people weren't educated 2000 years ago, however, the educational level is doubtfully equal to that of today's standard. I will research this more, as I learned this in school a few years ago. However, I ask you this, do you honestly believe that printed media was as widely used 2000 years ago as it is today? I guess my point was, not necessarily whether an 80 year old could remember this or that, rather, whether people were more likely to convey information orally due the lack of mass media.
You posed the original reply relating the three physical states of water to be equated with one god in three persons. This is also babble to anyone who is trying to understand a trinity of god(s).
The ability to write, read and store texts in libraries was almost as advanced 2100 years ago as today. There were historians who wrote books like Josephus, Rome maintained libraries of written texts used by people like Josephus, the Dead Sea Scrolls that we have in our possession today.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/ancient_texts/Cuneiform.shtml
Unfortunately there are no existing texts from the early Christian Church, Jesus or the disciples. If there were, they could easily be compared to the NT Gospels for verification.
You cannot prove anything by comparing existing books written hundreds of years after the crucifixion of Jesus to prove that the gospels had any relationship to actual events or people described in the Gospels.
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #92
Suddenly and mysteriously? The prophecy not only suited your criteria, but also was mentioned to you once before by me. The only thing sudden or mysterious is that you never bothered to check history as proof for the prophecy. NOW I have done that for you. You should be happy. I have just given you reason to give up since you claim the entire New Testament false based on lack of prophecy.
I simply asked for one Gospel prophecy that came true many years later. You didn't show any relationship to any great dearth with your finding one famine in the time of Claudias. What is the connection?
You haven't proven it NOT prophecy.
There is no need to prove something that is obviously not related or linked to any NT prophecy. What am I to disprove?
I guess you ignore the obvious. That is an eviable quality for a doctor.
Whatever????
Common? What does that have to do with prophecy?
Common are famines repleat through recorded history. Again you make a statement without linking this GREAT DEARTH to any one particular event that the NT Gospel says happened on a certain day in a particular city in the middle of what community state area? What is your connection?
PREDICTABLILITY is what would make this prophecy invalid.
What is unpredictabile about this famine that would make this a valid NT Gospel prophecy?
It was the only famine situation in Rome for 400 years and happened just as claimed. In addition, if it could be predicted, would the leaders let it happen?
You were given a site that states that there were FAMINES during that 400 years in question. You discounted any evidence that would contradict your assertion of a NT prophecy no matter what any evidence was presented to you.
How would the "leaders" change any circumstance or situation that would prevent a famine if all they had to do was to walk over to the next village for provisions? Your thought pattern here is a bit confused.
They would lose taxes and weaken the military strength. They were not that dumb.
What do lost taxes, diminished militry strength have anything to do with one of just many famines (GREAT DEARTHS). Who knew that the NT Gospel prediction of a GREAT DEARTH referred to any particular famine. What are you trying to say?
The prophecy still stands solid.
Yes it actually does in your own mind but you have not shown any proof that there was any one prophecy in the NT that actually occurred years later. A vague GREAT DEARTH does not connect to Claudius. My Old Testmaent prophecy seems to fit in the present day, but this does not constitute proof of anything.
No. The buck stops here. You claimed the New Testament false by not having any prophecy and now that you have been proven wrong, your argument holds no water. We go no further until you prove it wrong.
How do you prove something wrong when there is no proof that it was correct? I can't even prove that you exist so therefore you are not only wrong but you don't even take up any space.
If you keep discussing the Bible or New Testament invalid, I will continue to hammer this into you until you do prove this prophecy invalid.
Can you stop repeating yourself. You've simply proven nothing to disprove?
IF you underestimate my resolve, you may do it to your detriment.
Keep on truckin...
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #93
I gave you four of them, which you have ignored for two pages now.
The only four things you posted on this thread have nothing to do with prophecies in the NT that happened hundreds of years later which would tend to prove validity. I'll repost them in small print below:
Acts 1:8: He (Jesus) said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
This prophecy's fulfillment is the subject of the rest of the book of Acts.
John 2:18-22: "Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. "
Of course, Jesus' resurrection is confirmed in all four gospels.
Luke 18:31: "Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again."
His suffering and resurrection, again, discussed in all four gospels.
Matthew 24:1-2: "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
In AD 70, the temple in Jerusalem was torn apart.
You haven't one prophecy in these four NT quotes. Simply you have posted things discussed in the Gospels. Show me one of them to be a prophecy that has been fulfilled hundreds of years later. JUST ONE.....
Which one, specifically, is this? EDIT: I didn't see the passage when I quoted your message. More to follow on this passage.
Okay I'll repost it because you said you didn't see a possible event occurring more than 2.5 eons after placed on papyrus.
There is no real proof that this is the actual Jeremiah prophecy even though it SEEMS to FIT. Your NT verses don't prophecize anything except each other. What a feat...
N
NewGuy
Guest
You admitted I did and it is clear I did. Reread. The prophecy says dearth and names the emporer it happened under. History backs this up.
Now you are contradicting your earlier statements that it DID have relevancy.
Actually, I did that quite clearly. You admitted it as well when you claimed that the prophecy adressed the famine, alright, but famines were supposedly common. After you stated that, I proved you wrong.
Reread the text.
Can you predict a famine anywhere where there is none now? -and have it take place across an area the size of all civilization?
That's what I thought.
No. lets requote your post: "Between 433 and 431 B.C.E. there was a great deal of social struggle between patricians and plebians involving continual military clashes; these conflicts led to destruction and =famines which triggered increases in epidemics, declines in international trade, and overall economic instabiliy."
400 years? I see a list of famines occuring in a TWO YEAR SPAN.
You presented no evidence. Bring up more that verifies common famines in Rome then if you think I am wrong. Surely there is more than one source.
No, you are confused. The point is that if a famine is predictable, the leaders will prevent it because they see it coming. THAT is what makes this famine so prophetic --it was "wold wide" and could not be predicted by normal men.
You know what I am saying. Stop talking gibberish and make a point.
You are right. You cannot prove your point. -But I did. The proof is right there plain and simple.
You call yourself a doctor?
Don't get wise now. You won't like where that can go.
I have proven nothing. The Bible has proven your entire argument base false. I just had to prove THAT to you.
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #95
Responding to you is like emptying the sea of water in a sand pale. You just keep filling it back up with nothing but your claim to be correct. You simply ignored my post putting FAMINES (multiple) into your time frame.
That's what I thought. No. lets requote your post: "Between 433 and 431 B.C.E. there was a great deal of social struggle between patricians and plebians involving continual military clashes; these conflicts led to destruction and =famines which triggered increases in epidemics, declines in international trade, and overall economic instabiliy." 400 years? I see a list of famines occuring in a TWO YEAR SPAN. You presented no evidence. Bring up more that verifies common famines in Rome then if you think I am wrong. Surely there is more than one source.
Here goes one more time and for the last time:
http://www.reference-guides.com/smi...onary/Claudius/
Time of Claudius there were several famines. Which one specifically was prophecied in the NT Gospel?????
N
NewGuy
Guest
Keep it up odor eater.
As I said, there were only two as shown previously that were in the same reighn and "world wide" therefore: it doesn't matter does it? It FULFILLS THE PROPHECY.
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #97
Keep it up odor eater.
Great retort.
As I said, there were only two as shown previously that were in the same reighn and "world wide" therefore: it doesn't matter does it? It FULFILLS THE PROPHECY.
Only two during the same reign when there were apparently many famines during Claudia's time? Which one is the prophecy proof?
Worldwide, where did you get that bit of information?
I didn't read about it in your history site proof list..... IT MATTERS FOR WITHOUT A SPECIFIC FAMINE, YOU HAVE PROVED NOTHING....
N
NewGuy
Guest
Show proof. The statement of "many" is not only vague but proven untrue as my proof showed you already. There were listings of 3 and 2 were widespread. YOU have the job of disproving the specific logical info, not me.
Using vague terms with NO details doesn't cut it.
Reread the thread.
Read the text. -Better yet, pick up a Bible. If you can't remember what you are arguing, you aren't much good at disproving.
You didn't READ.
Yurt
Gold Member
I posted the original reply, BECAUSE you never answered the question. My intent on asking the question should not matter if you have the truth. I all ask was that you answer the question.
Second, if you really believe that a stone tablet is comparable with today's writing standards, please, give me something better. It was not until the printing press that mass media began to be available. That was my point, there was NOT mass media back then. Therefore, most people handed down stories through oral history.
ajwps
Active Member
- Thread starter
- #100
ALRIGHTY LET ME DISPROVE YOUR PROOF OF NT PROPHECY
You said,
Okay lets read your NT bible prophecy and the proof of it failing the test of a prophecy.
First lets take a look at that ONE prophecy you provided from KJV of a New Testatment PROPHECY verse you would like to think is proof of validity of the NT.
Now lets take a look at that proof. The only person during that period of time who actually was a historian who wrote down on paper the events was the man Josephus.
And Josephus the historian of 2100 years ago actually seems to speak of this GREAT DEARTH THROUGHOUT ONLY PALESTINE (WORLD WIDE) in Acts 11 which occurred during the time of Claudius Ceasar.
Now let's take a look at the reality of what throughout the world meant to the NT bible folks in the following.
So this NT prophecy really meant throughout Jerusalem and not througout the world. SO VERY SORRY....
Yep I have now disproved your contention that the NT prophecy you picked out does not mean throughout the world but really throughout Jerusalem which in Acts 11:28 is what it really says
- Status
Similar threads
New Topics
-
-
BREAKING: Letitia James Served With Federal Grand Jury Subpoena- Started by excalibur
- Replies: 3
-
NYT Says We Should Keep Criminal Aliens Here Because Deporting Them Makes Communities ‘Less Safe’- Started by Doc7505
- Replies: 4
-
The historical reality of land ownership in South Africa amid Trump’s criticisms- Started by IM2
- Replies: 1
-
A 2nd $60 Million F18 Destroyed by the Houthis, thanks to our "friends" the ASS-k-NAZIs- Started by Contumacious
- Replies: 14
