#### ding

##### Confront reality

I never realized truth was a popularity contest.Logic is based upon truth and truth is based upon objectivity. Truth and logic are discovered through objectivity.Logic, like math is discovered. You can't make them be anything you want them to be. Just like you can't make right and wrong be anything you want them to be.You were the one who said they were the same thing to justify that math is an invention. I am the one who said the transitive law was discovered and not created by man but exists unto itself just as logic does because the transitive law is based upon logic.So you are arguing that a house and a diamond ring and a Lamborghini are all the same things?Let's say A is a house and B is a diamond ring and C is a Lamborghini. Are they all the same thing?But it's not saying A=A. It is comparing three different things. A, B and C.You said it wasn't much of a discovery though, right? You didn't say it was no discovery.No it was invented when man invented a system of correct inference AKA logicIs that your way of saying the transitive law was discovered?All you are doing is saying A =ASo... if A=B and B=C then A=C was invented and not discovered?So I invented that if A=B and B=C then A=C?No. I'm not. E=mc^2 wasn't invented. It was discovered. Einstein could not make it be anything he wanted it to be like Apple could with its iPod. So E=mc^2 isn't an invention, it is a mathematical reality that describes a physical phenomenon. The physical phenomenon and the math that describes it were discovered.you are confusing math with the things it was invented to describe.Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.See the 2 min 35 sec mark.The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.You said math was discovered not created by humans.Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

A distinction without a difference

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So which is it?

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

The math that describes the relationship between matter and energy is a human invention.

You are confusing the math with the things it is being used to describe.

Mathematics was invented to describe observed phenomenon in the natural world.

Like the path of a thrown object or the acceleration of a body due to gravity.

It is a representation of the phenomenon not the phenomenon itself.

Not much of a "discovery" is it ?

Logic is nothing but a system invented by humans to examine human reasoning.

It's not a "discovery" to say A=A

Do you know what sarcasm is?

No it isn't

because we have a definition for the concept represented by the = sign.

If A =B then B and A are the same thing so you are not comparing different things but rather you are giving the same thing different names.

Like I said we have defined the meaning of the = sign.

if you do not use the = sign then you are not giving different names to the same thing.

I guess since you believe you can make logic be anything you want that makes sense to you.

No. I never once said that or tried to prove it.

And what you are doing is playing with language and that is not logic.

Where did I say a house and a diamond ring are the same thing? The entire if A=B and B=C then A=C statement is based on certain assumptions. If you change those assumptions or ignore then then the rule breaks down.

Logic is a human invention as a system of correct inference.

Math was invented by humans to describe observed phenomena

There is no reason to think the mathematics or logic of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

The rules of logic have been set down in the past and expanded by different cultures throughout history.

The system of rules was made by men and is a product of the human mind and are therefore uniquely human.

Logic isn't something floating out in the ether like hydrogen atoms

Truth. Obviously your truth and my truth are not the same thing.

a statement can only be true if we all agree on the definition of the terms used.

So now i suppose that there is some ultimate source of the definitions of all terms waiting to be "discovered " too right?

Truth like logic exists unto itself and are discovered.