God created evil for his pleasure. Do you recognize the pleasure of creating and doing evil?

[ding]

So the question then becomes where did you get your understanding of what good is and why do you expect everyone to know it?

First of all, every human was gifted with consciousness. Buy I agree, not everything depends on it. Because what is acceptable in a certain time in a certain society may be unacceptable in some other time and place.

Basically, the word of God should be a beacon to universal morality.

I suspect God would disagree that his morals change.

 

[ding]

All that is logically flawed.

Can you explain how?

 

[ESay]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

There's a joke Rabbi Mannis Friedman once told to sum it up, and I'll paraphrase-

G-d wanted to communicate with someone, have a relationship. So he went to the angels, they all went as if paralyzed - " oh You Holy, Holy One, Holy You Are"...how can You have a conversation like that? So G-d went to people, said "Let's have a relationship", they said "What's on Your mind?", G-d said "here I have 10 commandments", "what's in them?" one nation asked, "Don't steal", "Nay, not interested". So G-d went to another nation, they asked "what's in there?" "There's only one G-d, Me, no other", they said "nah what will the idols say, not interested".

Then G-d went to Israel, they said "Ok let's do it, then we see how it goes", G-d went "Here You are" and gave them His Torah, and Israel immediately made the calf thing...you know just to see how it goes... G-d said "Oh finally, these folks I can talk to".

Only a joke, but in every joke there's some truth.
If G-d wanted creation to be totally obedient, He wouldn't create humanity and stay with the robotic-like beings who won't dare, or simply can't step right or left, and stop creation at angels.

Yeah, cool story. But it raises a very important question which may be won't be answered for sure at all - why did God need to create everything in the first place? I am sure it wasn't because he felt an urge to talk with someone.

 

[rylah]

All that is logically flawed.

Can you explain how?

I already did in length several times, and not just me.
You just act as if nothing was said.

 

[rylah]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

There's a joke Rabbi Mannis Friedman once told to sum it up, and I'll paraphrase-

G-d wanted to communicate with someone, have a relationship. So he went to the angels, they all went as if paralyzed - " oh You Holy, Holy One, Holy You Are"...how can You have a conversation like that? So G-d went to people, said "Let's have a relationship", they said "What's on Your mind?", G-d said "here I have 10 commandments", "what's in them?" one nation asked, "Don't steal", "Nay, not interested". So G-d went to another nation, they asked "what's in there?" "There's only one G-d, Me, no other", they said "nah what will the idols say, not interested".

Then G-d went to Israel, they said "Ok let's do it, then we see how it goes", G-d went "Here You are" and gave them His Torah, and Israel immediately made the calf thing...you know just to see how it goes... G-d said "Oh finally, these folks I can talk to".

Only a joke, but in every joke there's some truth.
If G-d wanted creation to be totally obedient, He wouldn't create humanity and stay with the robotic-like beings who won't dare, or simply can't step right or left, and stop creation at angels.

Yeah, cool story. But it raises a very important question which may be won't be answered for sure at all - why did God need to create everything in the first place? I am sure it wasn't because he felt an urge to talk with someone.

Easy.
G-d is infinitely good.
But what's in good if there's no one to receive.

 

[ESay]

Ancient man understood what the moral of that story was but that meaning was lost through time.

I think you over-estimate the ancient people. It is something like to say that a student has more understanding of something than a skilled worker, just because he (the student) is able to communicate with a professor in the college.

In my understanding, it is impossible to comprehend God's word without studying our world and society as a whole. Science is inevitable tool in learning God.

 

[ESay]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

I’m pretty sure there is more to it than that.

But I have faith that he got what he intended just as I have faith that all things work for good.

All things work for good? What is good and evil then? If a stronger animal takes the food from a weaker one - is that good or evil? Or if a female wolf eats her puppies in a hunger year - is that good or evil?

 

[ESay]

So the question then becomes where did you get your understanding of what good is and why do you expect everyone to know it?

First of all, every human was gifted with consciousness. Buy I agree, not everything depends on it. Because what is acceptable in a certain time in a certain society may be unacceptable in some other time and place.

Basically, the word of God should be a beacon to universal morality.

I suspect God would disagree that his morals change.

His morals not. What changes is humans' perception of this morals.

 

[ESay]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

There's a joke Rabbi Mannis Friedman once told to sum it up, and I'll paraphrase-

G-d wanted to communicate with someone, have a relationship. So he went to the angels, they all went as if paralyzed - " oh You Holy, Holy One, Holy You Are"...how can You have a conversation like that? So G-d went to people, said "Let's have a relationship", they said "What's on Your mind?", G-d said "here I have 10 commandments", "what's in them?" one nation asked, "Don't steal", "Nay, not interested". So G-d went to another nation, they asked "what's in there?" "There's only one G-d, Me, no other", they said "nah what will the idols say, not interested".

Then G-d went to Israel, they said "Ok let's do it, then we see how it goes", G-d went "Here You are" and gave them His Torah, and Israel immediately made the calf thing...you know just to see how it goes... G-d said "Oh finally, these folks I can talk to".

Only a joke, but in every joke there's some truth.
If G-d wanted creation to be totally obedient, He wouldn't create humanity and stay with the robotic-like beings who won't dare, or simply can't step right or left, and stop creation at angels.

Yeah, cool story. But it raises a very important question which may be won't be answered for sure at all - why did God need to create everything in the first place? I am sure it wasn't because he felt an urge to talk with someone.

Easy.
G-d is infinitely good.
But what's in good if there's no one to receive.

Well, I have to admit that this contradicts my perception of God. For now, at least. I think that God is in harmony and 'comfort' in himself.

 

[rylah]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

There's a joke Rabbi Mannis Friedman once told to sum it up, and I'll paraphrase-

G-d wanted to communicate with someone, have a relationship. So he went to the angels, they all went as if paralyzed - " oh You Holy, Holy One, Holy You Are"...how can You have a conversation like that? So G-d went to people, said "Let's have a relationship", they said "What's on Your mind?", G-d said "here I have 10 commandments", "what's in them?" one nation asked, "Don't steal", "Nay, not interested". So G-d went to another nation, they asked "what's in there?" "There's only one G-d, Me, no other", they said "nah what will the idols say, not interested".

Then G-d went to Israel, they said "Ok let's do it, then we see how it goes", G-d went "Here You are" and gave them His Torah, and Israel immediately made the calf thing...you know just to see how it goes... G-d said "Oh finally, these folks I can talk to".

Only a joke, but in every joke there's some truth.
If G-d wanted creation to be totally obedient, He wouldn't create humanity and stay with the robotic-like beings who won't dare, or simply can't step right or left, and stop creation at angels.

Yeah, cool story. But it raises a very important question which may be won't be answered for sure at all - why did God need to create everything in the first place? I am sure it wasn't because he felt an urge to talk with someone.

Easy.
G-d is infinitely good.
But what's in good if there's no one to receive.

Well, I have to admit that this contradicts my perception of God. For now, at least. I think that God is in harmony and 'comfort' in himself.

Of course in harmony.
Human perception limits will with imperfection,
and the will to share good with dependency on others.

Not so with G-d who is independent,
He didn't need humanity, or any other creation to serve and fulfill any need.

G-d's will is essentially a decision.

 

[ding]

All that is logically flawed.

Can you explain how?

I already did in length several times, and not just me.
You just act as if nothing was said.

Actually you didn’t. The conclusion of your logic is God is to blame for creating evil.

my argument is that everything God created is good and that man is to blame when he behaves without goodness.

so I am struggling to see how you corrected anything. You can’t even state your position at this point because it literally starts with your belief that God created evil.

But you are free to keep making rhetorical statements and I will keep making my affirmative case and the logical conclusion of your ridiculous belief that God created evil.

 

[ding]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

There's a joke Rabbi Mannis Friedman once told to sum it up, and I'll paraphrase-

G-d wanted to communicate with someone, have a relationship. So he went to the angels, they all went as if paralyzed - " oh You Holy, Holy One, Holy You Are"...how can You have a conversation like that? So G-d went to people, said "Let's have a relationship", they said "What's on Your mind?", G-d said "here I have 10 commandments", "what's in them?" one nation asked, "Don't steal", "Nay, not interested". So G-d went to another nation, they asked "what's in there?" "There's only one G-d, Me, no other", they said "nah what will the idols say, not interested".

Then G-d went to Israel, they said "Ok let's do it, then we see how it goes", G-d went "Here You are" and gave them His Torah, and Israel immediately made the calf thing...you know just to see how it goes... G-d said "Oh finally, these folks I can talk to".

Only a joke, but in every joke there's some truth.
If G-d wanted creation to be totally obedient, He wouldn't create humanity and stay with the robotic-like beings who won't dare, or simply can't step right or left, and stop creation at angels.

Yeah, cool story. But it raises a very important question which may be won't be answered for sure at all - why did God need to create everything in the first place? I am sure it wasn't because he felt an urge to talk with someone.

Easy.
G-d is infinitely good.
But what's in good if there's no one to receive.

And yet you believe God created evil.

 

[ding]

Ancient man understood what the moral of that story was but that meaning was lost through time.

I think you over-estimate the ancient people. It is something like to say that a student has more understanding of something than a skilled worker, just because he (the student) is able to communicate with a professor in the college.

In my understanding, it is impossible to comprehend God's word without studying our world and society as a whole. Science is inevitable tool in learning God.

I agree that by studying what God created we can gain insight into God. I’m an engineer by education and trade so I am well versed in science and logic. We can use logic and experience to know God exists.

But your under estimation of ancient man is short sighted. Ancient man was more in tune with nature than modern man can ever hope to be. The fact of the matter they captured one of the most important pieces of information which is that man knows right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes he didn’t violate it. This key observation more than any other is proof God exists. This key piece of information is the key to seeing reality because it is subjectivity which prevents reality from being seen.

 

[ding]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

I’m pretty sure there is more to it than that.

But I have faith that he got what he intended just as I have faith that all things work for good.

All things work for good? What is good and evil then? If a stronger animal takes the food from a weaker one - is that good or evil? Or if a female wolf eats her puppies in a hunger year - is that good or evil?

The concept of good and evil is a human construct. It is an artifact of intelligence. The sheep does not see the wolf as evil for killing her lamb. So it is ridiculous to make the comparison you are trying to make.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

 

[ding]

So the question then becomes where did you get your understanding of what good is and why do you expect everyone to know it?

First of all, every human was gifted with consciousness. Buy I agree, not everything depends on it. Because what is acceptable in a certain time in a certain society may be unacceptable in some other time and place.

Basically, the word of God should be a beacon to universal morality.

I suspect God would disagree that his morals change.

His morals not. What changes is humans' perception of this morals.

Wrong.

Like I already said...

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

 

[rylah]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

There's a joke Rabbi Mannis Friedman once told to sum it up, and I'll paraphrase-

G-d wanted to communicate with someone, have a relationship. So he went to the angels, they all went as if paralyzed - " oh You Holy, Holy One, Holy You Are"...how can You have a conversation like that? So G-d went to people, said "Let's have a relationship", they said "What's on Your mind?", G-d said "here I have 10 commandments", "what's in them?" one nation asked, "Don't steal", "Nay, not interested". So G-d went to another nation, they asked "what's in there?" "There's only one G-d, Me, no other", they said "nah what will the idols say, not interested".

Then G-d went to Israel, they said "Ok let's do it, then we see how it goes", G-d went "Here You are" and gave them His Torah, and Israel immediately made the calf thing...you know just to see how it goes... G-d said "Oh finally, these folks I can talk to".

Only a joke, but in every joke there's some truth.
If G-d wanted creation to be totally obedient, He wouldn't create humanity and stay with the robotic-like beings who won't dare, or simply can't step right or left, and stop creation at angels.

Yeah, cool story. But it raises a very important question which may be won't be answered for sure at all - why did God need to create everything in the first place? I am sure it wasn't because he felt an urge to talk with someone.

Easy.
G-d is infinitely good.
But what's in good if there's no one to receive.

And yet you believe God created evil.

The possibility for human to choose evil.
Have you heard about the evil inclination?

 

[rylah]

All that is logically flawed.

Can you explain how?

I already did in length several times, and not just me.
You just act as if nothing was said.

Actually you didn’t. The conclusion of your logic is God is to blame for creating evil.

my argument is that everything God created is good and that man is to blame when he behaves without goodness.

so I am struggling to see how you corrected anything. You can’t even state your position at this point because it literally starts with your belief that God created evil.

But you are free to keep making rhetorical statements and I will keep making my affirmative case and the logical conclusion of your ridiculous belief that God created evil.

Oh c'mon,
so now you just pedal back on everything you've initially claimed,
and instead of admitting, reverse our arguments to confirm everything I've said?

This is a silly game.

But one thing good, is you eventually learn.

 

[ESay]

The concept of good and evil is a human construct. It is an artifact of intelligence. The sheep does not see the wolf as evil for killing her lamb. So it is ridiculous to make the comparison you are trying to make.

So, you will have to admit that there is no evil outside of human's perception. God created the world according to his plan and as we see it now. In the world if living creatures, the rule of the strong exists. And a human being has virtually the same instincts a wolf does. And without human's moral abilities, his deeds would be the same as other earth animals.

But God gave humans consciousness, reason and his commandments to follow. And with that human beings divided deeds on 'good' and 'wrong'.

With this division, the right of the strong which is a basis for animal world became 'wrong'. But, nevertheless, it exists in humans' instincts the same as in other living creatures.

Denying this, you virtually admit that there are at least two creators - 'good' and 'bad'.

 

[ding]

The concept of good and evil is a human construct. It is an artifact of intelligence. The sheep does not see the wolf as evil for killing her lamb. So it is ridiculous to make the comparison you are trying to make.

So, you will have to admit that there is no evil outside of human's perception. God created the world according to his plan and as we see it now. In the world if living creatures, the rule of the strong exists. And a human being has virtually the same instincts a wolf does. And without human's moral abilities, his deeds would be the same as other earth animals.

But God gave humans consciousness, reason and his commandments to follow. And with that human beings divided deeds on 'good' and 'wrong'.

With this division, the right of the strong which is a basis for animal world became 'wrong'. But, nevertheless, it exists in humans' instincts the same as in other living creatures.

Denying this, you virtually admit that there are at least two creators - 'good' and 'bad'.

Yes, I deny there are two creators. The law of nature or natural law or moral law or law of right and wrong - whatever you want to call it - is written into the hearts of men. If the commandments were never given to us, if no religious texts were ever written, men would still know right from wrong and men would still rationalize they did do right when they didn’t and they will never abandon those beliefs. Why? Because standards exists for logical reasons independent of what man wants them to be.

 

[ding]

If He wanted to create this but didn't foresee the consequences, then it means that He isn't omniscient.

What is it that you think God was trying to create or produce exactly?

Because if you don't know that then how can you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted? And if he got what he set out to do, then he is omniscient.

Of course he got what he wanted. He wanted to create a human being with freedom of will and choice, with consciousness and reason. If all people should have been all 'good' what is the use of these features?

There's a joke Rabbi Mannis Friedman once told to sum it up, and I'll paraphrase-

G-d wanted to communicate with someone, have a relationship. So he went to the angels, they all went as if paralyzed - " oh You Holy, Holy One, Holy You Are"...how can You have a conversation like that? So G-d went to people, said "Let's have a relationship", they said "What's on Your mind?", G-d said "here I have 10 commandments", "what's in them?" one nation asked, "Don't steal", "Nay, not interested". So G-d went to another nation, they asked "what's in there?" "There's only one G-d, Me, no other", they said "nah what will the idols say, not interested".

Then G-d went to Israel, they said "Ok let's do it, then we see how it goes", G-d went "Here You are" and gave them His Torah, and Israel immediately made the calf thing...you know just to see how it goes... G-d said "Oh finally, these folks I can talk to".

Only a joke, but in every joke there's some truth.
If G-d wanted creation to be totally obedient, He wouldn't create humanity and stay with the robotic-like beings who won't dare, or simply can't step right or left, and stop creation at angels.

Yeah, cool story. But it raises a very important question which may be won't be answered for sure at all - why did God need to create everything in the first place? I am sure it wasn't because he felt an urge to talk with someone.

Easy.
G-d is infinitely good.
But what's in good if there's no one to receive.

And yet you believe God created evil.

The possibility for human to choose evil.
Have you heard about the evil inclination?

Again, evil is not extant. What you call evil is the absence of good. But if you want to believe God created evil, then be my guest.