God and Free Will

[ding]

How will the suffering be different?

Not the right question. I know two women who broke their hips. One was very active, the other sedentary. Who do you think was up and back to an active life--and who do you suppose chose bed and a wheelchair?

Suffering takes a toll on attitude, on the essential self/spirit. Likewise, if someone has a strong spiritual relationship with God and has developed a strong spirit, compared to someone who has not, who, attitude/spirit wise, is going to have an easier time?

I’ve suffered through several accidents, what you say is nonsense. You’re making it up as you go along. Just like dingbat.

Then the best you will ever be able to do is suffer without complaint.

Now really.... how likely is that?

 

[Meriweather]

I’ve suffered through several accidents, what you say is nonsense. You’re making it up as you go along. Just like dingbat.

Shrug. Then why did you ask? Just out of curiosity, did you accept pain medication?

 

[Taz]

I’ve suffered through several accidents, what you say is nonsense. You’re making it up as you go along. Just like dingbat.

Shrug. Then why did you ask? Just out of curiosity, did you accept pain medication?

You’re saying that without god, you can’t have a strong spirit, which is bs, I have a very strong spirit.
And yes, I took pain medication, still do, sometimes. Why?

 

[Meriweather]

You’re saying that without god, you can’t have a strong spirit, which is bs, I have a very strong spirit.
And yes, I took pain medication, still do, sometimes. Why?

No, I am not saying "without God." I am saying "with God." An analogy: Someone who goes to the gym may build a strong body. This does not mean that those who do not go to the gym do not have a strong body (i.e., construction workers, for example). People who exercise spiritually (however they may do it) will be in better shape. With God puts one in good spiritual shape. If you say you are in great spiritual shape without God, I'm not going to argue. I'm simply crediting God for building my own spiritual strength, which has helped me through times of great pain without pain medication.

 

[Taz]

You’re saying that without god, you can’t have a strong spirit, which is bs, I have a very strong spirit.
And yes, I took pain medication, still do, sometimes. Why?

No, I am not saying "without God." I am saying "with God." An analogy: Someone who goes to the gym may build a strong body. This does not mean that those who do not go to the gym do not have a strong body (i.e., construction workers, for example). People who exercise spiritually (however they may do it) will be in better shape. With God puts one in good spiritual shape. If you say you are in great spiritual shape without God, I'm not going to argue. I'm simply crediting God for building my own spiritual strength, which has helped me through times of great pain without pain medication.

So because of your belief in god, you refuse to take pain medication, and so increase your suffering? Makes no sense.

 

[Avatar4321]

Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishmentwhich is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. 2 Nephi 2:9-16

 

[G.T.]

Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishmentwhich is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. 2 Nephi 2:9-16

Mormonism | Joseph Smith: Liar, Fraud and Con-Artist

 

[Meriweather]

So because of your belief in god, you refuse to take pain medication, and so increase your suffering? Makes no sense.

Not what I said (which may be why it makes no sense).

 

[Taz]

So because of your belief in god, you refuse to take pain medication, and so increase your suffering? Makes no sense.

Not what I said (which may be why it makes no sense).

So because of your belief in god, you refuse to take pain medication, and so increase your suffering? Makes no sense.

Not what I said (which may be why it makes no sense).

Brah, it's EXACTLY what you said " I'm simply crediting God for building my own spiritual strength, which has helped me through times of great pain without pain medication."

 

[Meriweather]

Brah, it's EXACTLY what you said " I'm simply crediting God for building my own spiritual strength, which has helped me through times of great pain without pain medication."

Yes, now THAT was exactly what I said.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I just know that the entire, rather involved enterprise of humanity would be pointless and accomplish nothing if nothing we humans consider "bad" ever happened

And how do you know that?

 

[Cecilie1200]

So then it doesn't matter if you believe in god because bad things will happen to you anyways.

Correct. Bad things will happen. The question is not, Will you suffer? The question is, How will you suffer. And in the midst of suffering, who do we want to help us through it? (God is not a Genii, granting wishes. He's there for the long haul through reality.)

So if I have an accident, I’ll suffer differently if I believe or not?

Yup.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Obligations of good sense do not eliminate the free will to be stupid.

Being told that this is the better choice, with the better outcome, does not eliminate my free will to make a bad decision. People do it all the time.

So then why do bad things happen to believers?

Because bad things happen to everyone. What the hell purpose would be accomplished if all of life was like a Teletubbies episode?

So then it doesn't matter if you believe in god because bad things will happen to you anyways.

What makes you think preventing bad things from ever happening to you was the point of believing in God?

Isn’t that why people pray to god? So bad things don’t happen to them?

If you actually have to ask that, you should stop making assertions about religion immediately, because you know even less about it than I originally credited you with.

Maybe instead of arrogant declarations, you should spend time humbly asking questions and actually learning something about the subject.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So then it doesn't matter if you believe in god because bad things will happen to you anyways.

Correct. Bad things will happen. The question is not, Will you suffer? The question is, How will you suffer. And in the midst of suffering, who do we want to help us through it? (God is not a Genii, granting wishes. He's there for the long haul through reality.)

So if I have an accident, I’ll suffer differently if I believe or not?

Yes. 100%

For starters you will be thankful that it wasn't worse.

How will the suffering be different?

Let me put it this way: you've done a shitty job at becoming a better human being with whatever method you've been using so far.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How will the suffering be different?

Not the right question. I know two women who broke their hips. One was very active, the other sedentary. Who do you think was up and back to an active life--and who do you suppose chose bed and a wheelchair?

Suffering takes a toll on attitude, on the essential self/spirit. Likewise, if someone has a strong spiritual relationship with God and has developed a strong spirit, compared to someone who has not, who, attitude/spirit wise, is going to have an easier time?

I’ve suffered through several accidents, what you say is nonsense. You’re making it up as you go along. Just like dingbat.

So you're telling us that you got nothing positive from the experience and in no way were improved as a person by it?

SOMEONE here has nothing, but it's not Ding.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I’ve suffered through several accidents, what you say is nonsense. You’re making it up as you go along. Just like dingbat.

Shrug. Then why did you ask? Just out of curiosity, did you accept pain medication?

You’re saying that without god, you can’t have a strong spirit, which is bs, I have a very strong spirit.
And yes, I took pain medication, still do, sometimes. Why?

No, I can assure you, you do NOT have a strong spirit. You have arrogance and hubris, which are not the same thing. One need only listen to you frantically trying to tear other people down while offering nothing of value to replace what you wish to take from them to see what sort of spirit you have.

I hate to break it to you, but you are the best advertisement there is for the very things you revile so much.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I just know that the entire, rather involved enterprise of humanity would be pointless and accomplish nothing if nothing we humans consider "bad" ever happened

And how do you know that?

It's called "observation" and "the ability to think". Try it sometime.

 

[Taz]

Brah, it's EXACTLY what you said " I'm simply crediting God for building my own spiritual strength, which has helped me through times of great pain without pain medication."

Yes, now THAT was exactly what I said.

So either god replaced pain medication, which is crazy, or god got you through pain when you weren't near pain medication? Which is also kinda douche, as your own person isn't strong enough, you need help from an invisible person to have you take the pain.

 

[Taz]

So then it doesn't matter if you believe in god because bad things will happen to you anyways.

Correct. Bad things will happen. The question is not, Will you suffer? The question is, How will you suffer. And in the midst of suffering, who do we want to help us through it? (God is not a Genii, granting wishes. He's there for the long haul through reality.)

So if I have an accident, I’ll suffer differently if I believe or not?

Yup.

How? Can you explain?

 

[Taz]

How will the suffering be different?

Not the right question. I know two women who broke their hips. One was very active, the other sedentary. Who do you think was up and back to an active life--and who do you suppose chose bed and a wheelchair?

Suffering takes a toll on attitude, on the essential self/spirit. Likewise, if someone has a strong spiritual relationship with God and has developed a strong spirit, compared to someone who has not, who, attitude/spirit wise, is going to have an easier time?

I’ve suffered through several accidents, what you say is nonsense. You’re making it up as you go along. Just like dingbat.

So you're telling us that you got nothing positive from the experience and in no way were improved as a person by it?

SOMEONE here has nothing, but it's not Ding.

If I learned something and was improved by the events (ok, probably), it had nothing to do with god, since I don't believe. Or does god's effect happen anyways whether you believe in it or not, like gravity?