George Zimmerman's bloody head

[Quantum Windbag]

Does he have a face?

Yes.



Yes.

Is he a he?

Don't think so, my impression was that he was a she.


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Republicans will say the testimony doesn't count because it's a woman.

Rush will call her a slut.

this is why people pity the people who actually know you.

 

[The Gadfly]

Note also; Zimmerman's testimony in Court also showed a clear memory of events. He stated what he was thinking at the time, not "I CAN'T REMEMBER". I do not see any of the facts helping with self defense, outside of possible grass stains on the back of his jacket, and the unseen blood on his clothes. He looked neat, clean, and not disheveled when going into the station.

Are you pretending there is no head wound at all now ?

A wound was present, it did not require hospital treatment to check for a concussion, and it did prevent him from walking unassisted, nor the police from questioning him that night. FEAR OF DEADLY force will require more than, "I hurt my head". The idea the police had a change of clothes available is ABSURD. He was neat, clean, and ambulatory when he reached the police station; get a grasp on reality. This wasn't the Shootout at the OK Corral; an armed teenager was shot by a free lance WANNABE cop.

That conclusion, premature and emotionally driven as it is, does not follow from the evidence. Let me make something clear for you; to establish self defense, it is NOT necessary that a person have sustained serious bodily harm; only that he reasonably feared same. A showing of a continued assault after the person was knocked to the ground is quite sufficient for that purpose (there is PLENTY of legal precedent for that), and it would appear that there is eyewitness testimony to that effect. The state will have to either disprove that, or prove that Zimmerman did something that would justify what appears to be an assault by Martin that, if it did not constitute felonious assault or aggravated battery, would certainly border on it (a point I am sure the defense will try to emphasize). I remind you that allegations and suppositions are NOT probative facts in a court of law, unless substantiated by physical evidence and/or witness testimony It is noteworthy that in many jurisdictions, most likely including Florida, continued physical assault is considered prima facie evidence of intent to inflict serious injury, if not death. The state will have a considerable burden in overcoming that presumption, one which it may or may not have sufficient evidence to meet; to this point, the state has provided no such evidence at all.

 

[The Gadfly]

So far, there have been exactly TWO people commenting in this thread who have any extensive experience seeing and treating the sort of head wounds Zimmerman apparently sustained-one former navy corpsman, and one EMT/Paramedic (that would be Old Navy, and myself). Now, what I want to know, is just where the rest of you self-styled experts on head wounds, what they should look like, and how they might have been sustained, got the requisite professional experience to know what you claim to be so sure of. Please tell us; I sure would like to know how qualified you are to offer an opinion, since you seem to know so much more than we do. Ravi, rdean, and Peach (among others), let's hear it.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Florida Statutes 776.041 - Use of force by aggressor. - The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

- (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

- (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Yes, but if Zimmerman's actions constituted a felony, it's a whole new ballgame. If you kill some one in the course of committing a felony, even accidentally, you've committed murder.

If Zimmerman's actions constitute a felony they will have to disband every neighborhood watch in the country.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you, but I keep wondering why the prosecutor charged him with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter. Nothing in the evidence so far would justify a murder charge, but what if Zimmerman had made prior statements, perhaps just loose talk, about what he might do to a burglar if he had the chance? What if the things he said he might do would have constituted a felony? The prosecutor might try to portray Zimmerman's actual actions as attempts to carry out these threats, in effect, attempts to commit a felony, and if he killed Martin while committing a felony, that's murder.

 

[The Gadfly]

Yes, but if Zimmerman's actions constituted a felony, it's a whole new ballgame. If you kill some one in the course of committing a felony, even accidentally, you've committed murder.

Straight out of a Florida Neighborhood Watch Book.

Suspicious Activities Include:

- A person with seemingly no purpose, wandering around or loitering in the neighborhood.

- A person looking into a neighbor's windows and/or parked cars, moving from door to door.

How to Report Suspicious Activity:

- Immediately report any/all suspicious persons, vehicles, and activity to the Sheriff's Office non emergency dispatch.

- Be specific when describing any suspects (race, sex, age, height, weight, eye/hair color, facial hair, tattoos and articles of clothing worn.)

They can't even say this:

A person with seemingly no purpose, wandering around or loitering in the neighborhood.

The kid walked to the store before the game. He had a purpose. Worse, Zimmerman had to chase him down before he could shoot him. We know this from the tapes.

Can and will. We know some things Zimmerman could not have known, that would have made some perfectly innocent behavior on Martin's part appear suspicious. Martin was not familiar with the neighborhood, in which it appears from photos Brandy Green's townhouse is in a row of buildings on one of two parallel streets, which look very much alike. Martin left in daylight, but now at a little after 7pm it was completely dark, and raining. Martin would have been looking around, trying to get his bearings, looking for a street sign or a building for a landmark-"Do I turn at this building, or is it that one over there?" To an observer, he might well have appeared to be unsure, confused, or just aimlessly looking around, which behavior could well look suspicious, especially in a gated community. On top of that, his face would have been at least partially hidden by the hoodie, enough so that Zimmerman was not even sure of his race; when asked by the dispatcher, Zimmerman did NOT say "he's Black"; he said "I think he's Black" because he couldn't be sure. We don't know that Zimmerman "chased him down" either; all we know, is that after losing sight of him, Zimmerman ran a short distance to see if he could regain sight of him; as of the time his call to the dispatcher ended, he still had not regained sight of Martin, because he told the dispatcher near the end of the call that he still didn't see the kid. If he had sighted Martin at that point, he would have had every reason to tell the dispatcher where Martin was, and no reason whatever not to. In fact, at that point in time, we do not know where either party was; all we know is where the altercation between the two occurred, some 30-38 seconds later.

 

[The Gadfly]

Yes, but if Zimmerman's actions constituted a felony, it's a whole new ballgame. If you kill some one in the course of committing a felony, even accidentally, you've committed murder.

If Zimmerman's actions constitute a felony they will have to disband every neighborhood watch in the country.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you, but I keep wondering why the prosecutor charged him with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter. Nothing in the evidence so far would justify a murder charge, but what if Zimmerman had made prior statements, perhaps just loose talk, about what he might do to a burglar if he had the chance? What if the things he said he might do would have constituted a felony? The prosecutor might try to portray Zimmerman's actual actions as attempts to carry out these threats, in effect, attempts to commit a felony, and if he killed Martin while committing a felony, that's murder.

Only one problem with that theory: that would be 1st degree murder (by Florida statute), and if there were any such evidence, that's what the prosecutor would have charged. As it is, the state now has to present evidence of "depraved mind", i.e. actual malice, which would take some pretty strong evidence we haven't seen yet (if it exists). Otherwise, this is a deliberate over-charge, intended either to induce a plea bargain, or as an invitation for a judge to quash the charge. I would not bet the farm either way; it's a win-win for the Prosecutor; she brought the stiff charge so many wanted; she wins if she get a plea, she wins if a judge throws it out ("Hey, I tried!"), and if it goes to trial, she wins if she gets a guilty verdict, and she wins if he's acquitted (It's the jury's fault!"). Not bad for any elected official with some ambition, if you ask me.

 

[toomuchtime_]

If Zimmerman's actions constitute a felony they will have to disband every neighborhood watch in the country.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you, but I keep wondering why the prosecutor charged him with 2nd degree murder instead of manslaughter. Nothing in the evidence so far would justify a murder charge, but what if Zimmerman had made prior statements, perhaps just loose talk, about what he might do to a burglar if he had the chance? What if the things he said he might do would have constituted a felony? The prosecutor might try to portray Zimmerman's actual actions as attempts to carry out these threats, in effect, attempts to commit a felony, and if he killed Martin while committing a felony, that's murder.

Only one problem with that theory: that would be 1st degree murder (by Florida statute), and if there were any such evidence, that's what the prosecutor would have charged. As it is, the state now has to present evidence of "depraved mind", i.e. actual malice, which would take some pretty strong evidence we haven't seen yet (if it exists). Otherwise, this is a deliberate over-charge, intended either to induce a plea bargain, or as an invitation for a judge to quash the charge. I would not bet the farm either way; it's a win-win for the Prosecutor; she brought the stiff charge so many wanted; she wins if she get a plea, she wins if a judge throws it out ("Hey, I tried!"), and if it goes to trial, she wins if she gets a guilty verdict, and she wins if he's acquitted (It's the jury's fault!"). Not bad for any elected official with some ambition, if you ask me.

You're right, that would be first degree murder if Zimmerman had been attempting to commit a felony, but it could also show a depraved state of mind since intending to threaten or intimidate Martin could be seen as acts imminently dangerous to Martin.

This could just be a political stunt, as you suggest, but if the prosecutor cannot make a substantial case for 2nd degree murder it would be an act so frivolous that I doubt it does anyone any good.

 

[The Gadfly]

I don't know whether it's a political stunt, or whether she actually has some real evidence, since she elected to bypass a grand jury. We'll find out, when pretrial motions begin. All I said was, that either way she can't lose, politically speaking, even if this turns out to be nothing but political theater. Ay worst, she at least LOOKS like she TRIED to make a murder charge stick; if she wins, great, and if she doesn't, well, she won't be the first prosecutor to ever lose a case. Like I said, not a bad position for an elected official to be in.

 

[FireFly]

Yes, but if Zimmerman's actions constituted a felony, it's a whole new ballgame. If you kill some one in the course of committing a felony, even accidentally, you've committed murder.

Straight out of a Florida Neighborhood Watch Book.

Suspicious Activities Include:

- A person with seemingly no purpose, wandering around or loitering in the neighborhood.

- A person looking into a neighbor's windows and/or parked cars, moving from door to door.

How to Report Suspicious Activity:

- Immediately report any/all suspicious persons, vehicles, and activity to the Sheriff's Office non emergency dispatch.

- Be specific when describing any suspects (race, sex, age, height, weight, eye/hair color, facial hair, tattoos and articles of clothing worn.)

They can't even say this:

A person with seemingly no purpose, wandering around or loitering in the neighborhood.

The kid walked to the store before the game. He had a purpose. Worse, Zimmerman had to chase him down before he could shoot him. We know this from the tapes.

BULLSHIT

It was less than a 15 minute walk from 7 Eleven to where Trayvon was staying. Why did it take him an hour to get back? He had to be doing something other than walking. He may have been casing homes. He also had over 6 minutes to go 800 feet to get into the house he was staying at after Zimmerman dialed 911. It should have only taken 1 or 2 minutes. Martin had to have circled back or hid & launched an ambush on Zimmerman.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I don't know whether it's a political stunt, or whether she actually has some real evidence, since she elected to bypass a grand jury. We'll find out, when pretrial motions begin. All I said was, that either way she can't lose, politically speaking, even if this turns out to be nothing but political theater. Ay worst, she at least LOOKS like she TRIED to make a murder charge stick; if she wins, great, and if she doesn't, well, she won't be the first prosecutor to ever lose a case. Like I said, not a bad position for an elected official to be in.

I disagree. If Corey cannot make a credible case to justify charging 2nd degree murder rather than manslaughter, she will look like a fool. It doesn't do a politician any good to say, I tried, if the effort shows she hasn't got the goods.

 

[Ravi]

How would the location of GZ head striking the ground be "pretty important" for the prosecution?

If GZ head was pounded on the grass, it means that TM was slamming his head with even greater force to cause the marks in the photo. This will help the defense IMHO. It will also show just how disoriented GZ was due to his head being pounded.

Zimmerman was NOT disoriented minutes later, he was able to walk unaided, be interviewed and did not even get checked out at a hospital. It looks as though Zimmerman could not have been in fear of his life actually. How can the defense turn these boo boos into fear of deadly force?

Boxers get knocked to the ground disoriented all the time. It takes many up to 10 seconds just to get back on their feet. They are then good enough to continue the fight & still not go to the hospital. I have been completly knocked out a couple of times & was fine 30 seconds later. Never even went to the doctor.

The punch that broke GZ nose must have knocked him out for a second in order for him to fall to the ground from it.

You GZ haters bias has been exposed.

Zimmerman following Martin is enough to make Martin fear for his life.

BUT

Martin punching Zimmerman breaking his nose knocking him to the ground, pounding his head on the ground is not enough for Zimmerman to fear for his life.

BIAS MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't know how and why Zimmerman was injured, and to what extent. We don't know who attacked who.

We do know that Zimmerman profiled Martin and followed him, making him the aggressor.

The aggressor deserves scrutiny. And now he's getting it. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

 

[JoeB131]

like.......... at the most 2 stitches. He killed a person over 2 stitches...

Maybe it was over the embarrassment of getting his sissy ass whupped by a teenage kid.

 

[PredFan]

We don't know how and why Zimmerman was injured, and to what extent. We don't know who attacked who.

True

We do know that Zimmerman profiled Martin and followed him, making him the aggressor.

False.

The aggressor deserves scrutiny. And now he's getting it. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

He deserves scrutiny because a person is dead. We do not know if he was the aggressor.

 

[tinydancer]

I'm beginning to like Alan more and more daily. Yes, hell has frozen over.

Dershowitz really goes to town on this. He's saying flat out IF the Prosecutor had seen this picture before laying charges that this would make Corey guilty of "grave ethical misconduct".

" Dershowitz continued, “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie."

Dershowitz Blasts Zimmerman Prosecution: 'Not Only Immoral, But Stupid'

And if you don't like The Blaze link, the picture released by ABC news has gone viral.

Here's The Telegraph link.

George Zimmerman pictured with bloodied head after Trayvon Martin shooting - Telegraph

 

[JoeB131]

Why do you keep putting thread about Zimmerman here when they should be under "Law and Justice"?

Dershowitz was a guy who though OJ was as pure as the driven snow... lest we forget.

 

[tinydancer]

Why do you keep putting thread about Zimmerman here when they should be under "Law and Justice"?

Dershowitz was a guy who though OJ was as pure as the driven snow... lest we forget.

Because the decision to charge Zimmerman is political.

Plain and simple. If you remember correctly, it was the Florida Governor who demanded Prosecutors to "cough *reinvestigate* cough" the case.

This is not a "justice" issue whatsoever. It's glaringly political.

 

[The T]

Why do you keep putting thread about Zimmerman here when they should be under "Law and Justice"?

Dershowitz was a guy who though OJ was as pure as the driven snow... lest we forget.

Because the decision to charge Zimmerman is political.

Plain and simple. If you remember correctly, it was the Florida Governor who demanded Prosecutors to "cough *reinvestigate* cough" the case.

This is not a "justice" issue whatsoever. It's glaringly political.

The Governor of Florida doesn't want a repeat of the L.A. riots (Rodney King) in Florida. The fact that the shit disturber race-baiters as Al not-so-Sharpton were down there is proof.

 

[WorldWatcher]

**IF** sir, Zimmerman grabbed Martin that is Assault under Florida Law, if Zimmerman tried to unlawfully detain Martin and prevent him from leaving the event, that sir is a felony.

Florida Statutes 776.041 - unless:

- (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

- (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

Which supports what I said, there are certain conditions under Florida Law where the aggressor IS NOT covered by self defense if the actions he initiates escalate to the use of deadly force.

Secondly, you left out the preceding paragraph, that paragraph notes that self defense is not available if the individual is committing a felony. Under Florida law, an assault combined with unlawful detention is a forcible felony.


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[JoeB131]

Why do you keep putting thread about Zimmerman here when they should be under "Law and Justice"?

Dershowitz was a guy who though OJ was as pure as the driven snow... lest we forget.

Because the decision to charge Zimmerman is political.

Plain and simple. If you remember correctly, it was the Florida Governor who demanded Prosecutors to "cough *reinvestigate* cough" the case.

This is not a "justice" issue whatsoever. It's glaringly political.

So was the decision not to prosecute him when he was standing over a dead body with a smoking gun.

The decision there was, "We wouldn't want to get the gun nuts upset after they passed a goofy Stand Your Ground law." The cops wanted to charge the guy, the prosecutors said no.

I should point out the Florida Governor is a Republican.

My own view. Zimmerman is guilty in the strict moral sense. His actions led to the death of a kid who wasn't guilty of anything. Trayvon would be alive today if not for George Zimmerman. Now, maybe he can wiggle out under the law, but I hope not.

 

[WorldWatcher]

There is no evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after the police dispatcher said he didn't have to. In fact, at the bond hearing the state investigator admitted there is no evidence to contradict Zimmerman's claim that he turned back towards his car after talking to the dispatcher.

As to the first claim, that there is no evidence Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after the police dispatcher said he shouldn't, there is...

Dispatcher Call ~~ 19:11
Girlfriend Inbound Call ~~ 19:12
Zimmerman Exits Truck ~~ + 2 minutes 10 seconds
Zimmerman Acknowledges Dispatcher Instruction Not To Follow ~~ +2 minutes 28 seconds
Dispatcher Call Ends ~~ 19:15
Girlfriend Call Ends ~~ 19:16

Examining the recording, the time from exiting the truck to acknowledging the dispatcher instructions was 18 seconds.

To claim Zimmerman was returning to his truck at the point he acknowledges the dispatcher with "OK", that would have occurred at approximately time 19:13:28. The girlfriends call ended at approximately 19:16 based on phone records (call time + duration). The difference is approximately 2 minutes 30 seconds to return to the truck, when traveling away from the truck for 18 seconds. From the truck's likely location (based on Zimmerman's description of the location in the dispatcher tape) the truck was likely about 150 yards away from the shooting site. **IF** he began returning at the "OK" acknowledgment he'd have had 833.3% more time to return (2:30) then the 18 seconds traveling away.


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There was NEVER an "instruction" not to follow.

Yes there was, there was specific instructions from the Sanford Police department not to get physically involved with any activity reported.


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