Genesis 19: Sodom and Gomorrah

[aris2chat]

there is nothing in either the OT or the NT that suggests that eating shellfish will condemn anyone to some place called "hell"

There's nothing in the OT because the Hebrews didn't believe in an afterlife. THat's something the modern religions made up.

But clearly, God called eating Shellfish an "abomination", so that must mean anyone eating at Joe's Crab Shack is in for it.

or red lobster
or any calabash

 

[Bonzi]

Romans1:26-27 is all you need.

Look no further....

Absolutely- no reason even to read the words of Jesus.......

Nothing in the Bible even HINTS at homosexuality being acceptable Only sinful and an abomination.

Enough said.

 

[Bonzi]

there is nothing in either the OT or the NT that suggests that eating shellfish will condemn anyone to some place called "hell"

There's nothing in the OT because the Hebrews didn't believe in an afterlife. THat's something the modern religions made up.

But clearly, God called eating Shellfish an "abomination", so that must mean anyone eating at Joe's Crab Shack is in for it.

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

 

[JoeB131]

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

Well, no, guy, instead of wasting your time, let's just dispense with this excuse right now.

there are a shitload of laws in the Torah we don't follow today because they no longer make sense in our modern world. The God of the Hebrews was a tribal God with primitive tribal rules. Some of them even made sense. I suspect the "Shellfish' rule got put in there because someone plucked some Shrimp from the sea not knowing he had a shellfish allergy. His head blew up and everyone concluded that stuff makes Yahweh totally angry.

Which is what primitive people do. They associate everything they don't understand with "God".

They "Gay is Bad" rule got stuck in there because when you were a tribal people trying to keep your numbers up, you didn't want to waste any seed on someone's butthole. Not in a time where you had a 50% infant mortality rate. (The bible also says not to count babies in censuses until they are at least a year old. Take that, Abortion Nutters!!!)

Of course, when the New Roman Religion of Christianity needed a "backstory", they picked the Hebrew one, but they they inherited all this garbage about shrimp and gays and not boiling a kid in its mother's milk or some such shit. Rules they all tried to declare 'Well, that's the OLD testament" for things like the Shrimp, but keeping the homophobia and slavery rules because, hey, those things were important.

Here's the thing. God didn't change his mind on shrimp and pork, PEOPLE did. So unless you are an orthodox Jew or a Seventh Day Adventist, you are going to totally enjoy that shrimp/pork egg roll and your preacher ain't gonna say dick about it.

God didn't change his mind on Burning Witches. PEOPLE did. People figured out there aren't any real witches and never were. You aren't going to see a preacher tell you that girl who is going through a Wiccan phase in her late teens needs to be burned.

God didn't change his mind on Slavery. PEOPLE did. So you aren't going to go down to your local slave-mart and buy Kunta Kinte. and you aren't going to see any preacher tell you how slavery was a good thing that God totally approved of.

God isn't going to change him mind on homosexuality. PEOPLE did. People realize some folks are just gay, and if you don't like that, it's your problem. And in a few more decades, most of the churches will perform gay weddings and they are going to pretend those verses aren't in the bible... just like they do about the ones about Shrimp and Burning Witches and Slavery.

Maybe what we need is to just have Walt Disney rewrite the bible. Take out all the icky parts, just leave in the good parts and toss in a couple of catchy songs. I mean, it worked for literature, why not the Bible?

 

[Bonzi]

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

Well, no, guy, instead of wasting your time, let's just dispense with this excuse right now.

there are a shitload of laws in the Torah we don't follow today because they no longer make sense in our modern world. The God of the Hebrews was a tribal God with primitive tribal rules. Some of them even made sense. I suspect the "Shellfish' rule got put in there because someone plucked some Shrimp from the sea not knowing he had a shellfish allergy. His head blew up and everyone concluded that stuff makes Yahweh totally angry.

Which is what primitive people do. They associate everything they don't understand with "God".

They "Gay is Bad" rule got stuck in there because when you were a tribal people trying to keep your numbers up, you didn't want to waste any seed on someone's butthole. Not in a time where you had a 50% infant mortality rate. (The bible also says not to count babies in censuses until they are at least a year old. Take that, Abortion Nutters!!!)

Of course, when the New Roman Religion of Christianity needed a "backstory", they picked the Hebrew one, but they they inherited all this garbage about shrimp and gays and not boiling a kid in its mother's milk or some such shit. Rules they all tried to declare 'Well, that's the OLD testament" for things like the Shrimp, but keeping the homophobia and slavery rules because, hey, those things were important.

Here's the thing. God didn't change his mind on shrimp and pork, PEOPLE did. So unless you are an orthodox Jew or a Seventh Day Adventist, you are going to totally enjoy that shrimp/pork egg roll and your preacher ain't gonna say dick about it.

God didn't change his mind on Burning Witches. PEOPLE did. People figured out there aren't any real witches and never were. You aren't going to see a preacher tell you that girl who is going through a Wiccan phase in her late teens needs to be burned.

God didn't change his mind on Slavery. PEOPLE did. So you aren't going to go down to your local slave-mart and buy Kunta Kinte. and you aren't going to see any preacher tell you how slavery was a good thing that God totally approved of.

God isn't going to change him mind on homosexuality. PEOPLE did. People realize some folks are just gay, and if you don't like that, it's your problem. And in a few more decades, most of the churches will perform gay weddings and they are going to pretend those verses aren't in the bible... just like they do about the ones about Shrimp and Burning Witches and Slavery.

Maybe what we need is to just have Walt Disney rewrite the bible. Take out all the icky parts, just leave in the good parts and toss in a couple of catchy songs. I mean, it worked for literature, why not the Bible?

TL;DR....

God doesn't change; both Old and New Testament are clear on God's view on Homosexuality. It's a sin, along with many other things. Just quit trying to pass off homosexuality as if God approves. He doesn't

 

[BluePhantom]

Leviticus 18:22King James Version (KJV)
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

Well actually what it says is "V'et zachar lo tishkav mishk'vey eeshah toeyvah hee." which means "And with a male you shall not lay layings of a woman". That verse actually makes no sense at all when read in Hebrew. How it got translated into what you quote in the KJV is a very long story, but that's not actually what it says in Hebrew. The short version is that scribes translating into different languages ran across something that made absolutely no sense and so they basically made something up. In reality no one knows what the author was saying. It's probably one of those verses that got messed up by a scribe making a copy and that error got copied over and over throughout the centuries.

Regardless, Leviticus is outlining the contract between the Jews and God. God allows the to live in the Holy Land under His protection and the Jews follow God's laws. If you are not a Jew and not living in the Holy Land you are not subject to that contract. For Christians living in the United States Leviticus is completely irrelevant. Here's a news flash for you...Christians are not bound by Torah.

 

[BluePhantom]

Romans 1:26-27

26 Because of this, God gave them to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

All that has to happen is acceptance. Acceptance that sodomy (gay style) is normal. Accept that words have no meaning. Accept perversion by words and deeds. There are no moral bounds except those chosen by society.

Notice that jake never actually quotes Gen. 19, why do you think that would be?

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

Verse 5 is particularly of importance.

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

The word "know' in this verse is the same as used in these verses:

Genesis 4:1
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Genesis 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The men of the city that came to Lot's home and sought after the two men who were Lot's guests were homosexuals.

Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Well the word is actually "ya'da" (just like in Seinfeld...yada yada yada) which can be both to know information and to have sexual relations so while it is used to refer to sexuality in the verses you reference, it is also used in the Bible the other way as in 'he knew the truth' or 'he knew what was right'. etc.

More to the point though you are overlooking that God decided to destroy Sodom before the gang rape incident. The gang rape incident could not be the reason why God decided to destroy the city. It hadn't happened yet.

 

[BluePhantom]

there is nothing in either the OT or the NT that suggests that eating shellfish will condemn anyone to some place called "hell"

There's nothing in the OT because the Hebrews didn't believe in an afterlife. THat's something the modern religions made up.

But clearly, God called eating Shellfish an "abomination", so that must mean anyone eating at Joe's Crab Shack is in for it.

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

Are you still going on about Levitical Law? Bonzi, they don't apply to Christians. Christians are not bound to Torah. Paul was very clear on this point in Galatians. The Law is no longer applicable. If you are going to profess to be a Christian, try listening to what it says. If you want to insist that Leviticus still applies, then you should convert to Judaism. Sheesh.

 

[aris2chat]

Leviticus 18:22King James Version (KJV)
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

Well actually what it says is "V'et zachar lo tishkav mishk'vey eeshah toeyvah hee." which means "And with a male you shall not lay layings of a woman". That verse actually makes no sense at all when read in Hebrew. How it got translated into what you quote in the KJV is a very long story, but that's not actually what it says in Hebrew. The short version is that scribes translating into different languages ran across something that made absolutely no sense and so they basically made something up. In reality no one knows what the author was saying. It's probably one of those verses that got messed up by a scribe making a copy and that error got copied over and over throughout the centuries.

Regardless, Leviticus is outlining the contract between the Jews and God. God allows the to live in the Holy Land under His protection and the Jews follow God's laws. If you are not a Jew and not living in the Holy Land you are not subject to that contract. For Christians living in the United States Leviticus is completely irrelevant. Here's a news flash for you...Christians are not bound by Torah.

Laying of women is similar to the laying in prior to childbirth or during menses. The blood is considered impure. Men are supposed to not share a bed with their wife for seven days, after which she takes a cleaning bath to become pure again for sex.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Romans 1:26-27

26 Because of this, God gave them to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

All that has to happen is acceptance. Acceptance that sodomy (gay style) is normal. Accept that words have no meaning. Accept perversion by words and deeds. There are no moral bounds except those chosen by society.

Notice that jake never actually quotes Gen. 19, why do you think that would be?

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

Verse 5 is particularly of importance.

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

The word "know' in this verse is the same as used in these verses:

Genesis 4:1
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Genesis 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The men of the city that came to Lot's home and sought after the two men who were Lot's guests were homosexuals.

Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Well the word is actually "ya'da" (just like in Seinfeld...yada yada yada) which can be both to know information and to have sexual relations so while it is used to refer to sexuality in the verses you reference, it is also used in the Bible the other way as in 'he knew the truth' or 'he knew what was right'. etc.

More to the point though you are overlooking that God decided to destroy Sodom before the gang rape incident. The gang rape incident could not be the reason why God decided to destroy the city. It hadn't happened yet.

are you sure about it?

 

[Syriusly]

Doctrine and Covenants 88:81
81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.

Doctrine and Covenants 38:41
41 And let your preaching be the warning voice, every man to his neighbor, in mildness and in meekness.

And you are warning here on the boards with mildness and meekness?

 

[Syriusly]

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

Well, no, guy, instead of wasting your time, let's just dispense with this excuse right now.

there are a shitload of laws in the Torah we don't follow today because they no longer make sense in our modern world. The God of the Hebrews was a tribal God with primitive tribal rules. Some of them even made sense. I suspect the "Shellfish' rule got put in there because someone plucked some Shrimp from the sea not knowing he had a shellfish allergy. His head blew up and everyone concluded that stuff makes Yahweh totally angry.

Which is what primitive people do. They associate everything they don't understand with "God".

They "Gay is Bad" rule got stuck in there because when you were a tribal people trying to keep your numbers up, you didn't want to waste any seed on someone's butthole. Not in a time where you had a 50% infant mortality rate. (The bible also says not to count babies in censuses until they are at least a year old. Take that, Abortion Nutters!!!)

Of course, when the New Roman Religion of Christianity needed a "backstory", they picked the Hebrew one, but they they inherited all this garbage about shrimp and gays and not boiling a kid in its mother's milk or some such shit. Rules they all tried to declare 'Well, that's the OLD testament" for things like the Shrimp, but keeping the homophobia and slavery rules because, hey, those things were important.

Here's the thing. God didn't change his mind on shrimp and pork, PEOPLE did. So unless you are an orthodox Jew or a Seventh Day Adventist, you are going to totally enjoy that shrimp/pork egg roll and your preacher ain't gonna say dick about it.

God didn't change his mind on Burning Witches. PEOPLE did. People figured out there aren't any real witches and never were. You aren't going to see a preacher tell you that girl who is going through a Wiccan phase in her late teens needs to be burned.

God didn't change his mind on Slavery. PEOPLE did. So you aren't going to go down to your local slave-mart and buy Kunta Kinte. and you aren't going to see any preacher tell you how slavery was a good thing that God totally approved of.

God isn't going to change him mind on homosexuality. PEOPLE did. People realize some folks are just gay, and if you don't like that, it's your problem. And in a few more decades, most of the churches will perform gay weddings and they are going to pretend those verses aren't in the bible... just like they do about the ones about Shrimp and Burning Witches and Slavery.

Maybe what we need is to just have Walt Disney rewrite the bible. Take out all the icky parts, just leave in the good parts and toss in a couple of catchy songs. I mean, it worked for literature, why not the Bible?

TL;DR....

God doesn't change; both Old and New Testament are clear on God's view on Homosexuality. It's a sin, along with many other things. Just quit trying to pass off homosexuality as if God approves. He doesn't

See I don't see any 'mildness or meekness' in that warning to your neighbors.

The New Testament is pretty clear that most of the commandments of the Old Testament do not apply to Christians- other than the 10 Commandments.

And as we all know Jesus never mentions homosexuals at all.

Really- from how some Christians go on- it would be easy to think that the New Testament is primarily concerned with homosexuality- rather than a brief mention by Paul.

 

[onefour1]

Romans 1:26-27

26 Because of this, God gave them to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

All that has to happen is acceptance. Acceptance that sodomy (gay style) is normal. Accept that words have no meaning. Accept perversion by words and deeds. There are no moral bounds except those chosen by society.

Notice that jake never actually quotes Gen. 19, why do you think that would be?

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

Verse 5 is particularly of importance.

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

The word "know' in this verse is the same as used in these verses:

Genesis 4:1
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Genesis 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The men of the city that came to Lot's home and sought after the two men who were Lot's guests were homosexuals.

Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Well the word is actually "ya'da" (just like in Seinfeld...yada yada yada) which can be both to know information and to have sexual relations so while it is used to refer to sexuality in the verses you reference, it is also used in the Bible the other way as in 'he knew the truth' or 'he knew what was right'. etc.

More to the point though you are overlooking that God decided to destroy Sodom before the gang rape incident. The gang rape incident could not be the reason why God decided to destroy the city. It hadn't happened yet.

Yes, God sent the angels (men) to Sodom and Gomorrah to warn Lot that God was going to destroy the cities prior to the incident of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah coming after the two men (angels).

Genesis 19:12-13
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

But this does not eliminate homosexuality along with other perverse practices from being the cause. Obviously there were a lot of men who came down to partake of this evil. So this particular wickedness was very prevalent in the cities. The discussion the Lord had with Abraham tells us that there had to be 10 or less righteous people in the cities or else God wouldn't have destroyed them.

Genesis 18:32
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.

The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was very grievous in the eyes of God:

Genesis 18:20
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

Genesis 13:13
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.

According to Jude the people of these cities were given over to fornication and going after strange flesh.

Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The going after strange flesh and the fact that the men of the city wanted the men in Lot's home to come out so they could know them point to homosexuality. It would not be a sin for the men to go out to simply get acquainted with the men of the city. But what the men of the city requested was seen as wicked to Lot:

Genesis 19:5-7
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

That fact of "knowing these two men" was seen as being a wicked thing surely points to the fact that the men of the city wished to perform homosexual acts upon the two men based on the dual meaning of the word "Ya'da". Would the two angels (men) have struck the men at the door blind for simply wanting to get acquainted? Surely what they sought was wicked. But God knew this before sending the men (angels) to Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities did not get to be the way they were overnight. They had reached a point of no return and God sent his angels (men) to warn Lot and his family and to destroy the cities.

 

[BluePhantom]

Romans 1:26-27

26 Because of this, God gave them to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

All that has to happen is acceptance. Acceptance that sodomy (gay style) is normal. Accept that words have no meaning. Accept perversion by words and deeds. There are no moral bounds except those chosen by society.

Notice that jake never actually quotes Gen. 19, why do you think that would be?

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

Verse 5 is particularly of importance.

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

The word "know' in this verse is the same as used in these verses:

Genesis 4:1
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Genesis 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The men of the city that came to Lot's home and sought after the two men who were Lot's guests were homosexuals.

Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Well the word is actually "ya'da" (just like in Seinfeld...yada yada yada) which can be both to know information and to have sexual relations so while it is used to refer to sexuality in the verses you reference, it is also used in the Bible the other way as in 'he knew the truth' or 'he knew what was right'. etc.

More to the point though you are overlooking that God decided to destroy Sodom before the gang rape incident. The gang rape incident could not be the reason why God decided to destroy the city. It hadn't happened yet.

are you sure about it?

Yeah I am sure. I am absolutely 100% positive. The only reference that could be remotely be connected to homosexuality in the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah is the gang rape incident. Go read the story. God had already decided to destroy the cities before that incident. It never says what the original sin of Sodom was. Only that they were wicked. It doesn't get any more specific.

 

[BluePhantom]

But this does not eliminate homosexuality along with other perverse practices from being the cause. Obviously there were a lot of men who came down to partake of this evil. So this particular wickedness was very prevalent in the cities. The discussion the Lord had with Abraham tells us that there had to be 10 or less righteous people in the cities or else God wouldn't have destroyed them.

Why would it have to be eliminated? You are merely making the assumption that it was a cause in the first place. It could have been greed, a refusal to help strangers (which was a major thing at that time), they could have been pagan. Hell it could have been anything. The only way to link it to homosexuality is by simply making assumptions. There's not a shred of evidence in the scripture that homosexuality was the cause in whole or even in part. You are simply making shit up

BTW...public gang rape in antiquity was not done for sexual gratification. It was a show of power.Conquered kings would be gang raped in the public square by enemy soldiers to demonstrate to the conquered people that the king was no longer in charge. Ambassadors would be gang raped if their overtures for peace or demands of surrender were refused. It was how they said "here's our answer and this is what we are going to do to you". The gang rape incident was an attempt to demonstrate their power over the angels. Take a history class, man.

 

[Bonzi]

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

Well, no, guy, instead of wasting your time, let's just dispense with this excuse right now.

there are a shitload of laws in the Torah we don't follow today because they no longer make sense in our modern world. The God of the Hebrews was a tribal God with primitive tribal rules. Some of them even made sense. I suspect the "Shellfish' rule got put in there because someone plucked some Shrimp from the sea not knowing he had a shellfish allergy. His head blew up and everyone concluded that stuff makes Yahweh totally angry.

Which is what primitive people do. They associate everything they don't understand with "God".

They "Gay is Bad" rule got stuck in there because when you were a tribal people trying to keep your numbers up, you didn't want to waste any seed on someone's butthole. Not in a time where you had a 50% infant mortality rate. (The bible also says not to count babies in censuses until they are at least a year old. Take that, Abortion Nutters!!!)

Of course, when the New Roman Religion of Christianity needed a "backstory", they picked the Hebrew one, but they they inherited all this garbage about shrimp and gays and not boiling a kid in its mother's milk or some such shit. Rules they all tried to declare 'Well, that's the OLD testament" for things like the Shrimp, but keeping the homophobia and slavery rules because, hey, those things were important.

Here's the thing. God didn't change his mind on shrimp and pork, PEOPLE did. So unless you are an orthodox Jew or a Seventh Day Adventist, you are going to totally enjoy that shrimp/pork egg roll and your preacher ain't gonna say dick about it.

God didn't change his mind on Burning Witches. PEOPLE did. People figured out there aren't any real witches and never were. You aren't going to see a preacher tell you that girl who is going through a Wiccan phase in her late teens needs to be burned.

God didn't change his mind on Slavery. PEOPLE did. So you aren't going to go down to your local slave-mart and buy Kunta Kinte. and you aren't going to see any preacher tell you how slavery was a good thing that God totally approved of.

God isn't going to change him mind on homosexuality. PEOPLE did. People realize some folks are just gay, and if you don't like that, it's your problem. And in a few more decades, most of the churches will perform gay weddings and they are going to pretend those verses aren't in the bible... just like they do about the ones about Shrimp and Burning Witches and Slavery.

Maybe what we need is to just have Walt Disney rewrite the bible. Take out all the icky parts, just leave in the good parts and toss in a couple of catchy songs. I mean, it worked for literature, why not the Bible?

TL;DR....

God doesn't change; both Old and New Testament are clear on God's view on Homosexuality. It's a sin, along with many other things. Just quit trying to pass off homosexuality as if God approves. He doesn't

See I don't see any 'mildness or meekness' in that warning to your neighbors.

The New Testament is pretty clear that most of the commandments of the Old Testament do not apply to Christians- other than the 10 Commandments.

And as we all know Jesus never mentions homosexuals at all.

Really- from how some Christians go on- it would be easy to think that the New Testament is primarily concerned with homosexuality- rather than a brief mention by Paul.

Which part of "homosexuality is a sin along with many other things" didn't you understand? Jesus was not always meek and mild, Christians are not wimps. To allow people to believe wrongly is not loving, my telling you the truth is more loving. Enabling is not love

 

[JoeB131]

TL;DR....

God doesn't change; both Old and New Testament are clear on God's view on Homosexuality. It's a sin, along with many other things. Just quit trying to pass off homosexuality as if God approves. He doesn't

God doesn't exist.

That's not the point I was making and that you are avoiding.

The Old and New Testament are clear on God's views on Witches and Slavery... yet today no one would accept them as valid or moral.

God didn't change. He didn't send down an addendum. People just stopped taking those parts of the bible seriously.

 

[Bonzi]

there is nothing in either the OT or the NT that suggests that eating shellfish will condemn anyone to some place called "hell"

There's nothing in the OT because the Hebrews didn't believe in an afterlife. THat's something the modern religions made up.

But clearly, God called eating Shellfish an "abomination", so that must mean anyone eating at Joe's Crab Shack is in for it.

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

Are you still going on about Levitical Law? Bonzi, they don't apply to Christians. Christians are not bound to Torah. Paul was very clear on this point in Galatians. The Law is no longer applicable. If you are going to profess to be a Christian, try listening to what it says. If you want to insist that Leviticus still applies, then you should convert to Judaism. Sheesh.

There are some Levitical laws that are eternal Godly moral guidelines (how Christians should live in OBEDIENCE)

 

[Bonzi]

TL;DR....

God doesn't change; both Old and New Testament are clear on God's view on Homosexuality. It's a sin, along with many other things. Just quit trying to pass off homosexuality as if God approves. He doesn't

God doesn't exist.

That's not the point I was making and that you are avoiding.

The Old and New Testament are clear on God's views on Witches and Slavery... yet today no one would accept them as valid or moral.

God didn't change. He didn't send down an addendum. People just stopped taking those parts of the bible seriously.

If you don't believe God exists not sure why you are even interested in discussing this. I would not be interested in a discussion about the Easter Bunny

 

[Syriusly]

I'm tired of posting the reply to this. Levitial laws are in group and wll post this later when I have time.
Such a stupid and tried "excuse"

Well, no, guy, instead of wasting your time, let's just dispense with this excuse right now.

there are a shitload of laws in the Torah we don't follow today because they no longer make sense in our modern world. The God of the Hebrews was a tribal God with primitive tribal rules. Some of them even made sense. I suspect the "Shellfish' rule got put in there because someone plucked some Shrimp from the sea not knowing he had a shellfish allergy. His head blew up and everyone concluded that stuff makes Yahweh totally angry.

Which is what primitive people do. They associate everything they don't understand with "God".

They "Gay is Bad" rule got stuck in there because when you were a tribal people trying to keep your numbers up, you didn't want to waste any seed on someone's butthole. Not in a time where you had a 50% infant mortality rate. (The bible also says not to count babies in censuses until they are at least a year old. Take that, Abortion Nutters!!!)

Of course, when the New Roman Religion of Christianity needed a "backstory", they picked the Hebrew one, but they they inherited all this garbage about shrimp and gays and not boiling a kid in its mother's milk or some such shit. Rules they all tried to declare 'Well, that's the OLD testament" for things like the Shrimp, but keeping the homophobia and slavery rules because, hey, those things were important.

Here's the thing. God didn't change his mind on shrimp and pork, PEOPLE did. So unless you are an orthodox Jew or a Seventh Day Adventist, you are going to totally enjoy that shrimp/pork egg roll and your preacher ain't gonna say dick about it.

God didn't change his mind on Burning Witches. PEOPLE did. People figured out there aren't any real witches and never were. You aren't going to see a preacher tell you that girl who is going through a Wiccan phase in her late teens needs to be burned.

God didn't change his mind on Slavery. PEOPLE did. So you aren't going to go down to your local slave-mart and buy Kunta Kinte. and you aren't going to see any preacher tell you how slavery was a good thing that God totally approved of.

God isn't going to change him mind on homosexuality. PEOPLE did. People realize some folks are just gay, and if you don't like that, it's your problem. And in a few more decades, most of the churches will perform gay weddings and they are going to pretend those verses aren't in the bible... just like they do about the ones about Shrimp and Burning Witches and Slavery.

Maybe what we need is to just have Walt Disney rewrite the bible. Take out all the icky parts, just leave in the good parts and toss in a couple of catchy songs. I mean, it worked for literature, why not the Bible?

TL;DR....

God doesn't change; both Old and New Testament are clear on God's view on Homosexuality. It's a sin, along with many other things. Just quit trying to pass off homosexuality as if God approves. He doesn't

See I don't see any 'mildness or meekness' in that warning to your neighbors.

The New Testament is pretty clear that most of the commandments of the Old Testament do not apply to Christians- other than the 10 Commandments.

And as we all know Jesus never mentions homosexuals at all.

Really- from how some Christians go on- it would be easy to think that the New Testament is primarily concerned with homosexuality- rather than a brief mention by Paul.

Which part of "homosexuality is a sin along with many other things" didn't you understand? Jesus was not always meek and mild, Christians are not wimps. To allow people to believe wrongly is not loving, my telling you the truth is more loving. Enabling is not love

Which part of Jesus never mentions homosexuality as a sin don't you understand.

In the entire New Testament the only mention is by Paul speaking of men- and he doesn't use the term 'sin'.

The Old Testament- as in Leviticus does- but Leviticus among other things tells us it is a sin to cut your beard.

Jesus says the 10 Commandments must be followed- and again- nothing in the 10 Commandments about homosexuality.

Adultery yes. Homosexuality no.

Jesus says that Divorce and Remarriage is a sin- unless the wife(and only the wife) has committed adultery.

Where are your threads here at USMB decrying divorce? The New Testament is very clear about Jesus's position as Divorce.