Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews

[Saigon]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

 

[Kondor3]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

The difference being that the Mormons don't have present-day operational law-books which prescribe hanging gays and stoning adulterers (especially women) and cutting off the hands of thieves and other barbarities unknown in The West (the lands of Christendom and its offspring), and they aren't looking to replace the US Constitution with their law-books...

 

[Kondor3]

"...It is impossible at this point to 'contradict it' because the COMPLETE QUOTE seems unavailable. Usually, when that happens - one wonders if it was fabricated?..."

If you have sufficient grounds to set aside the remarks on the grounds that they are fabricated, then that's that. If not, well... clearly, another approach seems indicated; conceding the likelihood that such remarks were made, pending further verification.

"...A personal bias, in this case - is not the reason for discarding the 'evidence'. It's lack of evidence - as in complete evidence. Just sayin'"

We've already been over the 'likelihood' aspect (above).

Regarding the context...

Given the entirely UN-ambiguous nature of some of those remarks, I see no purpose in further delaying the inevitable - condemning such remarks as seditious and disloyal - with the understanding that further evidence may come to light to alter our judgment in future.

If you have a 30-second video-tape of a suspect cocking a gun and pointing it at the sales clerk, you don't need the 30 seconds before or after that timeframe to judge those taped 30 seconds, and you don't delay judgment just because more video tape may or may not surface later.

"...P.S. - I assume you would be fine if I used Media Matters?"

Depends, but I may not be the best person to ask about media bias. Personally, I think most of 'em are full of $hit... Left, Right and even Center... they've all got agendas and axes to grind and they all spin facts their own way.

I might very well object to 'Media Matters' SPIN on a fact, but I would not automatically speculate that they fabricated the FACT itself, just because the FACT does not bode well for my preconceived notions of the nature of the authors or originators of the fact.

-------------------

In your shoes (hoping that the CAIR-Chair did not say this after all or that there's some other and reasonable explanation for the remarks, beyond their already-clear meaning)...

About the best one can do under such circumstances is to say something along the lines of...

"OK, well, that certainly seems to fulfill the challenge of demonstrating such an attitude on the part of the mainstream of that segment of the population. I would not mind seeing either a Denial from the speaker or an Explanation which a reasonable person could accept as altering the meaning of his words, but we do not yet have that in front of us, and we never may. Until such a time, reluctantly, I'm obliged to concede some merit to the point that you were trying to make, although it goes against the grain, and I remain unconvinced that this is sufficiently representative of the mainstream so as to render a final judgment in the matter."

Or some hor$e$hit like that...

 

[Saigon]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

The difference being that the Mormons don't have present-day operational law-books which prescribe hanging gays and stoning adulterers (especially women) and cutting off the hands of thieves and other barbarities unknown in The West (the lands of Christendom and its offspring), and they aren't looking to replace the US Constitution with their law-books...

Neither do more than 20 Muslim countries (have law books that prescribe hanging gays etc).

The US regularly executes people - few Islamic countries do.

 

[sealadaigh]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

it is probably a good idea in reports such as these to do a rudimentary search to see actually what was said and, if you cannot find a reliable source in the first few pages, well, i disregard it. something like this would be distorted easily and massaged to the writer's agenda.

i think also, people neglect to read the whole article. mustafa carroll seems to be joking.

 

[MHunterB]

If he's joking - it would be in extremely poor taste and quite counter-productive. I should hope a 'lobby' group would choose spokespeople who could better present their positions than that.......

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

If he's joking - it would be in extremely poor taste and quite counter-productive. I should hope a 'lobby' group would choose spokespeople who could better present their positions than that.......

lol, you call your lying scumbag Zionist propaganda outfits others spokesmen, pathetic describes your words here. A quote taken out of context and without even a source to document it was even made is worthless drivel.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Sunniboy alleges that many Muslims share the views he's expressed ........

Zionist schill, so tell us what views you refer to you and where these alleged statements are made?

 

[MHunterB]

What views I refer to, should be obvious from a reading of the previous discussion on this thread. Perhaps if you go back and re-read those posts, you'll understand: it was quite obvious.

One can access the entirety of any poster's past postings by clicking on their ID and then on the 'statistics' tab, and then on 'find all past posts by.....' - one can then look through the posts. Try it, and you'll quickly see.

 

[Kondor3]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

The difference being that the Mormons don't have present-day operational law-books which prescribe hanging gays and stoning adulterers (especially women) and cutting off the hands of thieves and other barbarities unknown in The West (the lands of Christendom and its offspring), and they aren't looking to replace the US Constitution with their law-books...

Neither do more than 20 Muslim countries (have law books that prescribe hanging gays etc).

That is because those 20-and-more are not governed predominantly by Sharia, yes?

Within the sampling domain of those ruled exclusively or nearly-exclusively or in-large-part by Sharia, your results may vary a bit from your last (above).

And, of course, the use of Sharia is spreading throughout the Muslim part of the world, so, today's 20-and-more could very well be tomorrow's 15-and-more, then 10-and-more, etc.

But, it would be an interesting exercise to quantity and firm-up that perception.

"...The US regularly executes people - few Islamic countries do."

What does that have to do with what happens once Sharia Law becomes operative in the context of Capital Crimes?

Oh, and, BTW, there's one other distinction to be made in this narrow context...

Within the universe of countries that have Capital Punishment on their books (just so we don't get sidetracked on the ever-popular CP exercise in this narrow context)...

There is one helluva big world of difference between a society that is willing to Kill a Killer, versus a society that is willing to Kill Gays.

And if you cannot see that, then I despair of your Moral Relativism barometer - with any luck, that's not the case here.

 

[Saigon]

Kondor -

Oddly enough, the most common basis for law in Muslim countries is English common law. But of course England had Egypt, Malaysia, Jordan etc as colonies, and much of that has remained in place. They still use Sharia in some areas of law, but it really is not the draconian nightmare people think of when they hear the word 'Sharia'.

It is difficult to really get clear figures on this, because the mix of Sharia and Common law varies from place to place so much.

 

[Hossfly]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

it is probably a good idea in reports such as these to do a rudimentary search to see actually what was said and, if you cannot find a reliable source in the first few pages, well, i disregard it. something like this would be distorted easily and massaged to the writer's agenda.

i think also, people neglect to read the whole article. mustafa carroll seems to be joking.

Was Mustafa Carrol joking? I don't think so. He made a joking statement about people worrying about sharia but the tenet of his speech wasn't to compete with David Letterman in the joke department. These people are dead serious.

CAIR TX -- stated "Muslims living in America should not be bound by U.S. law... ? Act For America Omaha Chapter

 

[Kondor3]

"...Was Mustafa Carrol joking? I don't think so. He made a joking statement about people worrying about sharia but the tenet of his speech wasn't to compete with David Letterman in the joke department. These people are dead serious..."

I tend to agree, and, from what (little) I understand of similar utterances elsewhere, at other times, by both himself and others in the leadership cadre of that NPO, it also seems sufficiently in-character so as to lend some additional credence to the report in the interim.

IMHO, words have meanings, and are intended to be construed at face-value, and this is certainly no exception.

If we eventually see a Denial ('I did not say that') or we see a Retraction ('I misspoke in the heat of passion and I am sorry.') or we see a Reasonable Context-Sensitive Alternative Explanation (what I really meant to say was, or what I was trying to convey was) for using those words, then folks can always backpedal and adapt; however, given both the Meaning of the Words and the Receptive Audience and Past History - folks will construe his words at face-value... meaning exactly what they say.

To the best of my knowledge, this took place at a rally in Houston earlier this year, and to the best of my knowledge, we have seen neither a Denial nor a Retraction nor a Reasonable Context-Sensitive Alternative Explanation that would cause a fair and reasonable person to set aside the face value of those words.

Lord knows, there's been enough passage of time in which to undertake such a counterpointing, had there been a basis for doing so, in light of the viral nature of the story on the Internet, and, if no effective counterpoint has been put forward in all this time, that is yet another nail in the coffin of alternative explanations.

If folks objecting to this (taking Mustafa Carroll's words at face-value) as an Incorrect or Premature Judgment can effectively counterpoint the face-value meaning of Carroll's utterances through Denial or Retraction or Viable Alternative Explanations, then we've still got a ball-game, but, at present, we're heading in the bottom of the 9th, tied, the Home Team (the take-at-face-value crowd) has bases loaded and nobody out, and the team's power-hitter (lack of evidence to the contrary) is batting with a 3-0 count in his favor, and the pitcher for the Away-Team (those seeking to explain this away as harmless or fabricated or misreported) is fading and has just about 'had it'.

Subject to recall in the event that something worthwhile surfaces from Carroll or CAIR at some future date, and switching games in the end...

Game / Set / Match to Hossfly on this one...

Or so it seems to this observer...

 

[sealadaigh]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

it is probably a good idea in reports such as these to do a rudimentary search to see actually what was said and, if you cannot find a reliable source in the first few pages, well, i disregard it. something like this would be distorted easily and massaged to the writer's agenda.

i think also, people neglect to read the whole article. mustafa carroll seems to be joking.

Was Mustafa Carrol joking? I don't think so. He made a joking statement about people worrying about sharia but the tenet of his speech wasn't to compete with David Letterman in the joke department. These people are dead serious.

CAIR TX -- stated "Muslims living in America should not be bound by U.S. law... ? Act For America Omaha Chapter

all you are really proving to me is that the number of muslim hate sites in the USA are limitless and that, if muslim youth are exposed to this kind of fookin' vile shite on a regular basis (and they are) it is a wonder that more bombings don't occur.

hell, i am an irish catholic and the constant exposure to this bigoted crap almost makes me want to join them. imagine if we targeted black americans like this, or asian americans, or mormons, or gays, or jews.

click on the homepage to your link...which is the same article as the opening post.

i have no idea exactly what mustafa carroll said or in what context...and we could spin things in many different ways. try this, and i won't mention names, but "evangelical christian advocates shackling black man to flag pole and whipping him for celebrating american way of life." we can put all kinds of spins on things...how about this..."after advocating the whipping of black american, southern christian man condemns another black american for defending the constitutional".

those are eamples of entirely accurate statements by themselves but the context is absent. i am merely trying to show you how things can be twisted to fit an agenda or or whatever reason.

i did a search...and got hate site after hate site after hate site before i actually got to some sort of legitimate news site...

Muslims try to counter Sharia fear - San Antonio Express-News

which doesn't really address the specifics but it does lend perspective. i don't see any difference between sharia law or judaic law or christian law canon law or whatever other than the fact that people have become accustomed to the use of the word "law" in these cases.

explain this,,,later in the article...

"Carroll began joking about the widespread concern about Shariah, the religious code that governs Muslim civil and political life.

“We tried to downplay Shariah, because we didn’t want to give the other side any excitement for being here,” he said.

He dismissed critics who express concern about Shariah, calling them “anti-foreign.”

“When you even say the word Shariah, people get nervous. We are not advocating for Shariah. We are not trying to make Shariah the law of the land,” he said.

Carroll claimed Muslims only want the “right to practice our faith.”

But he also said, “If you understand Shariah, the foundation of our faith … how we treat our neighbor, how we treat our parents … how we participate in society, all of that is part of Shariah.”

you make me sick.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

“If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,” said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.

it is probably a good idea in reports such as these to do a rudimentary search to see actually what was said and, if you cannot find a reliable source in the first few pages, well, i disregard it. something like this would be distorted easily and massaged to the writer's agenda.

i think also, people neglect to read the whole article. mustafa carroll seems to be joking.

Was Mustafa Carrol joking? I don't think so. He made a joking statement about people worrying about sharia but the tenet of his speech wasn't to compete with David Letterman in the joke department. These people are dead serious.

CAIR TX -- stated "Muslims living in America should not be bound by U.S. law... ? Act For America Omaha Chapter

Which is why we have to get ALAC - American Law for American Courtrooms passed in all 50 states. This is why CAIR is fighting against everyone who is behind ALAC including Brigitte Gabrielles org ACT & the many Chapters working on this tirelessly. It was just passed in Alabama. Other states will follow. It is only a matter of time.

 

[Kondor3]

Frankly, one need look no further than the unfolding of demands for Sharia Law and Sharia Courts in parts of the UK and other parts of Europe, once they build-up a sufficiently large population in a region to begin pushing such a latent agenda.

Those who are in the Tolerance-At-All-Costs camp will certainly attempt to duck and weave and dodge over this one as well, but there is enough ammunition online, with respect to demands for Sharia in the UK, to put that one to rest, for the most part.

Those who are in the Tolerance-Until-You-Try-to-Force-Your-Agenda-On-Us camp are a bit more receptive to the Hard Realities of encroaching Islam in Europe.

There's no need to press the Panic Button over here just yet but we DO need to keep our eyes and ears open and be ready to slap back the ears of those who would try to make (or foolishly grant) such inroads on this side of The Pond, when the need arises.

(notice, I say, in my biased way, 'when', and not 'if')

 

[sealadaigh]

Frankly, one need look no further than the unfolding of demands for Sharia Law and Sharia Courts in parts of the UK and other parts of Europe, once they build-up a sufficiently large population in a region to begin pushing such a latent agenda.

Those who are in the Tolerance-At-All-Costs camp will certainly attempt to duck and weave and dodge over this one as well, but there is enough ammunition online, with respect to demands for Sharia in the UK, to put that one to rest, for the most part.

Those who are in the Tolerance-Until-You-Try-to-Force-Your-Agenda-On-Us camp are a bit more receptive to the Hard Realities of encroaching Islam in Europe.

There's no need to press the Panic Button over here just yet but we DO need to keep our eyes and ears open and be ready to slap back the ears of those who would try to make (or foolishly grant) such inroads on this side of The Pond, when the need arises.

(notice, I say, in my biased way, 'when', and not 'if')

somewhere from his watery grave, osama bin laden must be laughing as americans shake in fear and try to eliminate the freedoms the constitution gave them,

you are aware (i would hope) that any law written prohibiting muslims the free practise of their religion will also apply to to those who practise other religions.

be very careful when you try to open this pandora's box. it will affect you in ways not seen yet. these "bans" on sharia law would also be "bans" on judaic law, christian law, and etc.

 

[Kondor3]

Frankly, one need look no further than the unfolding of demands for Sharia Law and Sharia Courts in parts of the UK and other parts of Europe, once they build-up a sufficiently large population in a region to begin pushing such a latent agenda.

Those who are in the Tolerance-At-All-Costs camp will certainly attempt to duck and weave and dodge over this one as well, but there is enough ammunition online, with respect to demands for Sharia in the UK, to put that one to rest, for the most part.

Those who are in the Tolerance-Until-You-Try-to-Force-Your-Agenda-On-Us camp are a bit more receptive to the Hard Realities of encroaching Islam in Europe.

There's no need to press the Panic Button over here just yet but we DO need to keep our eyes and ears open and be ready to slap back the ears of those who would try to make (or foolishly grant) such inroads on this side of The Pond, when the need arises.

(notice, I say, in my biased way, 'when', and not 'if')

somewhere from his watery grave, osama bin laden must be laughing as americans shake in fear and try to eliminate the freedoms the constitution gave them,

Or, alternatively, OBL is looking up from his very special place in Hell, gnashing his teeth over the idea that Americans are finding ways to keep his beloved Sharia off the books while preserving the freedoms that their Constitution gave them.

"...you are aware (i would hope) that any law written prohibiting muslims the free practise of their religion will also apply to to those who practise other religions..."

Yes. I am aware that such a law will prohibit the introduction of strictly Religious bodies of law - of any kind - as an integral part of the laws of this land - it's merely a reinforcement of our time-honored principle of Separation of Church and State. If a Religion exists which requires their own laws superceding their country's, else risk a limitation on the practice of their Religious Beliefs, then, the Constitutional Principle of "Separation of Church and State" must be given a greater weight than "Freedom of Religion" on behalf of ALL The People.

Besides... not to worry... I mean... after all... we're being told that Muslims do NOT want to implement Sharia as superseding and dominant in THIS country - right? - isn't that what we're being told? - so, no biggie - if what we're being told is true, then this should never surface as a contentious issue, right?

"...be very careful when you try to open this pandora's box. it will affect you in ways not seen yet. these '"bans' on sharia law would also be 'bans' on judaic law, christian law, and etc."

I am not aware that Judaic Law nor Christian (Canon?) Law are presently operative in the United States in a distinct and recognizable manner, so, this does not seem to present a problem for the foreseeable future.

I agree with you that great care must be taken when contemplating such Law and when crafting and implementing and enforcing such Law, but, the need for Great Caution should not be the cause for Paralysis of Will when preparing to counter an aggressive idealogy.

 

[sealadaigh]

Frankly, one need look no further than the unfolding of demands for Sharia Law and Sharia Courts in parts of the UK and other parts of Europe, once they build-up a sufficiently large population in a region to begin pushing such a latent agenda.

Those who are in the Tolerance-At-All-Costs camp will certainly attempt to duck and weave and dodge over this one as well, but there is enough ammunition online, with respect to demands for Sharia in the UK, to put that one to rest, for the most part.

Those who are in the Tolerance-Until-You-Try-to-Force-Your-Agenda-On-Us camp are a bit more receptive to the Hard Realities of encroaching Islam in Europe.

There's no need to press the Panic Button over here just yet but we DO need to keep our eyes and ears open and be ready to slap back the ears of those who would try to make (or foolishly grant) such inroads on this side of The Pond, when the need arises.

(notice, I say, in my biased way, 'when', and not 'if')

somewhere from his watery grave, osama bin laden must be laughing as americans shake in fear and try to eliminate the freedoms the constitution gave them,

Or, alternatively, OBL is looking up from his very special place in Hell, gnashing his teeth over the idea that Americans are finding ways to keep his beloved Sharia off the books while preserving the freedoms that their Constitution gave them.

"...you are aware (i would hope) that any law written prohibiting muslims the free practise of their religion will also apply to to those who practise other religions..."

Yes. I am aware that such a law will prohibit the introduction of strictly Religious bodies of law - of any kind - as a integral part of the laws of this land - it's merely a reinforcement of our time-honored principle of Separation of Church and State. If a Religion exists which requires their own laws superceding their country's, else risk a limitation on the practice of their Religious Beliefs, then, the Constitutional Principle of "Separation of Church and State" must be given a greater weight than "Freedom of Religion" on behalf of ALL The People.

Besides... not to worry... I mean... after all... we're being told that Muslims do NOT want to implement Sharia as superseding and dominant in THIS country - right? - isn't that what we're being told? - so, no biggie - if what we're being told is true, then this should never surface as a contentious issue, right?

"...be very careful when you try to open this pandora's box. it will affect you in ways not seen yet. these '"bans' on sharia law would also be 'bans' on judaic law, christian law, and etc."

I am not aware that Judaic Law nor Christian (Canon?) Law are presently operative in the United States in a distinct and recognizable manner, so, this does not seem to present a problem for the foreseeable future.

I agree with you that great care must be taken when contemplating such Law and when crafting and implementing and enforcing such Law, but, the need for Great Caution should not be the cause for Paralysis of Will when preparing to counter an aggressive idealogy.

and i am not aware of shariah law being practised in a distinct and recognisable manner or, if it is, it is already in violation of current laws.

i think most people have no idea exactly what shariah law is and how irt is being practised.

if you don't see judaic or christian laws in conflict with civil laws etc, i mean we have the get law and the some prohibitions on circumcisions and polygamy prohibitions and all kinds of starnge things governing the interactions between a man and a woman...for one.

would you care to discuss eruvim and city zoning and municipal ordinances?

exactly what prohibition on shariah law do people want that already isn't in place.

do not confuse a "paralysis of will" with an unwillingness to indulge in knee jerk, bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear.

 

[Kondor3]

and i am not aware of shariah law being practised in a distinct and recognisable manner or, if it is, it is already in violation of current laws.

Agreed. It is not on-the-books in a distinct and recognizable manner.

"...i think most people have no idea exactly what shariah law is and how irt is being practised..."

Doesn't matter... our people want Separation of Church and State... and State includes the law courts... and anything that proposes or insists or demands to the contrary will be stomped on by The People of this country, God bless 'em.

"...if you don't see judaic or christian laws in conflict with civil laws etc, i mean we have the get law and the some prohibitions on circumcisions and polygamy prohibitions and all kinds of starnge things governing the interactions between a man and a woman...for one..."

Doesn't matter. In this country, Secular Law trumps Canon Law every time.

"...exactly what prohibition on shariah law do people want that already isn't in place..."

More solid and explicit legal barriers and prohibitions so that Sharia cannot get even a toe-hold here, as it has in the U.K. and parts of Europe, where less solid and explicit barriers failed to prevent the infiltration and compromising of local law by is Sharia counterpart.

Anything and everything that can be done to prevent it, apparently.

"...do not confuse a 'paralysis of will' with an unwillingness to indulge in knee jerk, bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear."

Do not confuse 'knee-jerk bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear' with 'proactive preventative measures' brought about by observable and problematic scenarios visible in sister-countries equipped with kindred laws and barriers which failed to stop such an outcome in whole or in part.