Gang members lie on Federal Background check forms, get guns illegally....gun control works?

[2aguy]

Well, I don't. It's a horseshit criteria. Mass shooting should be when more than one person gets shot, and we have hundreds of those a year.

We have 600 mass shootings every year.
We have 16,000 gun homicides
We have 43,000 gun deaths
We have 70,000 gun injuries
We have 400,000 gun crimes committed a year
We have 280 BILLION in economic losses.
We have to build our whole society around the fetish of a minority, from Active Shooter Drills in our schools to Security Doors in our workplaces.

You are an idiot....

600 million guns in private hands......over 21.25 million Americans can carry guns legally in public for self defense.........



American use those legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, stabbings, beatings, robberies, and murders, as well as also stopping mass public shootings when they are allowed to have their legal guns with them...



Gun deaths...the truth....



2019...



Gun murder...10,235



Gun accidents...486



Of the gun murder deaths....over 70-80% of the victims are not regular Americans....they are criminals...murdered by other criminals in primarily democrat party controlled cities....where the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians have released them over and over again no matter how many times they are arrested for felony, illegal gun possession and violent crimes with guns...that's on you and your political party...not normal gun owners.





Gun suicides... 23,491...





Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop brutal rapes, robberies, beatings, knifings, murders......according to the Centers for Disease Control, and 1.5 million times according to the Department of Justice.



Lives saved....based on research? By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct





that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—



Money saved from people not being beaten, raped, murdered, robbed?.......





So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.


Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

 

[Abatis]

Well, I don't. It's a horseshit criteria.

Well, I don't either. The Mother Jones is one criteria of many and if one only wants to look at incidents of a random public shooter committing mass murder, (not involving family or gang activity), it is a useful, worthwhile compilation.

It is useful because if you polled ordinary people on the street and asked them how they defined a "mass shooting", it would be a Parkland or Texas Walmart or San Bernadino . . . It wouldn't be the drug corner drive-by's or stash house rip-squad clean-outs that happen twice a week in damn near every Democrat-run urban hellhole.

Mass shooting should be when more than one person gets shot, and we have hundreds of those a year.

If "more than one shot not necessarily killed" was the criteria, we would have thousands . . . like you say at the current criteria being 4 shot (not necessary killed), it pushes the number up into the 600's.

I doubt if lowering the criteria would help your "side". If anything, it would shine a spotlight on the current high levels of urban gun crime, and focus it on the racial disparity in victims (and offenders) which, to reasoned, thinking people, shows that the gun control you want to enact and enforce, would do nothing to reduce that crime.

The 2019 gun homicide rate for young Black males is nearly 17 times that for young non-Hispanic White males.

Screengrabs from the CDC's WISQARS tool, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports .

 

[2aguy]

Well, I don't either. The Mother Jones is one criteria of many and if one only wants to look at incidents of a random public shooter committing mass murder, (not involving family or gang activity), it is a useful, worthwhile compilation.

It is useful because if you polled ordinary people on the street and asked them how they defined a "mass shooting", it would be a Parkland or Texas Walmart or San Bernadino . . . It wouldn't be the drug corner drive-by's or stash house rip-squad clean-outs that happen twice a week in damn near every Democrat-run urban hellhole.



If "more than one shot not necessarily killed" was the criteria, we would have thousands . . . like you say at the current criteria being 4 shot (not necessary killed), it pushes the number up into the 600's.

I doubt if lowering the criteria would help your "side". If anything, it would shine a spotlight on the current high levels of urban gun crime, and focus it on the racial disparity in victims (and offenders) which, to reasoned, thinking people, shows that the gun control you want to enact and enforce, would do nothing to reduce that crime.

The 2019 gun homicide rate for young Black males is nearly 17 times that for young non-Hispanic White males.

Screengrabs from the CDC's WISQARS tool, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports .

View attachment 554543

View attachment 554544

Yep......

leftists like joe realize that gang and other criminal shootings occur in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities......most normal people do not live in those places and they also realize that the violence in these democrat party controlled areas does not affect them........

Mass public shootings, however, can be spun in a way to make it seem that they can happen anywhere, at anytime....reaching normal people .....when, in fact, this is not true...

In a country of over 330 million people...12 people committed mass public shootings in 2019....so the rarest of rare events...but the type of event leftists like joe need to lie about in order to get normal people to give them the power to ban and confiscate guns.....

 

[2aguy]

Well, I don't either. The Mother Jones is one criteria of many and if one only wants to look at incidents of a random public shooter committing mass murder, (not involving family or gang activity), it is a useful, worthwhile compilation.

It is useful because if you polled ordinary people on the street and asked them how they defined a "mass shooting", it would be a Parkland or Texas Walmart or San Bernadino . . . It wouldn't be the drug corner drive-by's or stash house rip-squad clean-outs that happen twice a week in damn near every Democrat-run urban hellhole.



If "more than one shot not necessarily killed" was the criteria, we would have thousands . . . like you say at the current criteria being 4 shot (not necessary killed), it pushes the number up into the 600's.

I doubt if lowering the criteria would help your "side". If anything, it would shine a spotlight on the current high levels of urban gun crime, and focus it on the racial disparity in victims (and offenders) which, to reasoned, thinking people, shows that the gun control you want to enact and enforce, would do nothing to reduce that crime.

The 2019 gun homicide rate for young Black males is nearly 17 times that for young non-Hispanic White males.

Screengrabs from the CDC's WISQARS tool, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports .

View attachment 554543

View attachment 554544

That is the danger they face...when they have to include daily criminal shootings in the mass public shooting number, they reveal that young black males are doing almost all of them.....since 12 people committed mass public shootings in 2019, not all of them were white males....but with a population of 7%....young black males shooting other young black males is over 50% of the murder rate...including spray and pray shootings at neighborhood parties, nightclubs and other on the street acts of violence by criminals and gangs...

 

[Abatis]

Yep......

leftists like joe realize that gang and other criminal shootings occur in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities......most normal people do not live in those places and they also realize that the violence in these democrat party controlled areas does not affect them........

Mass public shootings, however, can be spun in a way to make it seem that they can happen anywhere, at anytime....reaching normal people .....when, in fact, this is not true..

That's the magic of using the ''4 or more shot" criteria', it permits the use of the large total to shock the public and sway opinion but nobody on the left ever want to discuss what's under the hood of the number.

Doing that would expose the fact that what drives most "mass shootings" is what drives most murder, young male urban criminals shooting AT other young male urban criminals over shit that only young male urban criminals care about.

Problem is, they hit a high number of innocent bystanders and 'non-combatants'.

There is another compiler of mass shooting incidents (Mass-Shootings Info) that is useful because it puts together a mosaic mug shots of every person convicted, charged or wanted in connection with the shooting of 4+ people or who died before they could be charged.

That makes for an extremely interesting visual representation, here's 2019:

 

[2aguy]

That's the magic of using the ''4 or more shot" criteria', it permits the use of the large total to shock the public and sway opinion but nobody on the left ever want to discuss what's under the hood of the number.

Doing that would expose the fact that what drives most "mass shootings" is what drives most murder, young male urban criminals shooting AT other young male urban criminals over shit that only young male urban criminals care about.

Problem is, they hit a high number of innocent bystanders and 'non-combatants'.

There is another compiler of mass shooting incidents (Mass-Shootings Info) that is useful because it puts together a mosaic mug shots of every person convicted, charged or wanted in connection with the shooting of 4+ people or who died before they could be charged.

That makes for an extremely interesting visual representation, here's 2019:

View attachment 554560

The problem with that one is it aids the anti-gunners in perpetuating the lie that "Mass public shootings," where an individual goes to a public place with the sole intent on murdering innocents, with the actual criminal shootings.......where they are simply shooting at other criminals....with no connection to normal people.......

 

[JoeB131]

We don't have 600 mass public shootings every year...you are lying....

Sure we do... you just want to define it up to exclude anything where less than 4 people die.

I kind of get that... if every mass shooting made the news, we might actually do something about it.

The sad thing is, we hear, "Well, they shot 10 people, but only 3 of them dies... so no big deal."

 

[JoeB131]

That's the magic of using the ''4 or more shot" criteria', it permits the use of the large total to shock the public and sway opinion but nobody on the left ever want to discuss what's under the hood of the number.

Doing that would expose the fact that what drives most "mass shootings" is what drives most murder, young male urban criminals shooting AT other young male urban criminals over shit that only young male urban criminals care about.

Problem is, they hit a high number of innocent bystanders and 'non-combatants'.

So it doesn't count if it's only darkies getting shot.

Got it.

 

[2aguy]

Sure we do... you just want to define it up to exclude anything where less than 4 people die.

I kind of get that... if every mass shooting made the news, we might actually do something about it.

The sad thing is, we hear, "Well, they shot 10 people, but only 3 of them dies... so no big deal."

Tell that to the FBI, shithead they defined mass public shooting.....they are members of your god, "The government," so you should obey what they tell you...........even when obama lowered the number to 3 killed they couldn't get enough to scare people ....so they continue to mix gang shootings in with mass public shootings......

12 in 2019.

10 in 2018.

2 in 2020.

Out of over 330 million people...

 

[2aguy]

So it doesn't count if it's only darkies getting shot.

Got it.

Funny how you are the one constantly using the word "darkie" when referring to black Americans....your racism is showing...

 

[Abatis]

So it doesn't count if it's only darkies getting shot.

Got it.

It isn't that it "doesn't count", it's that your remedy won't work.

Just throwing "gun control" on the problem of urban gun violence is futile, given the places where these problems are worst, already have plenty of laws restricting the possession and carriage in public of guns.

.

 

[marvin martian]

Two gang members went into gun stores, filled out the Federally mandated paperwork.....and were allowed to buy guns.....

gun control.....works just as expected...

Sibling Gang Members Charged With Illegally Buying 82 Firearms

bearingarms.com

Hunter Biden did the same thing.

 

[JoeB131]

Tell that to the FBI, shithead they defined mass public shooting.....they are members of your god, "The government," so you should obey what they tell you...........even when obama lowered the number to 3 killed they couldn't get enough to scare people ....so they continue to mix gang shootings in with mass public shootings......

This is the same FBI that denied for years that the Mafia was a real thing. The same FBI that was less than forthcoming about using incendiaries at Waco.

The FBI needs serious reform.... which has nothing to do with the fact that we have 600 incidents year where more than one person is shot... hence a mass shooting.

Funny how you are the one constantly using the word "darkie" when referring to black Americans....your racism is showing...

I'm not the one downplaying the human carnage inflicted on people of color by your fetish.. that would be you.

It isn't that it "doesn't count", it's that your remedy won't work.

Just throwing "gun control" on the problem of urban gun violence is futile, given the places where these problems are worst, already have plenty of laws restricting the possession and carriage in public of guns.

Except gun control works just fine in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan and every other advanced country that does it.

 

[2aguy]

This is the same FBI that denied for years that the Mafia was a real thing. The same FBI that was less than forthcoming about using incendiaries at Waco.

The FBI needs serious reform.... which has nothing to do with the fact that we have 600 incidents year where more than one person is shot... hence a mass shooting.



I'm not the one downplaying the human carnage inflicted on people of color by your fetish.. that would be you.




Except gun control works just fine in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan and every other advanced country that does it.

View attachment 555208

No...gun control is not working in those countries.....the British police state that guns are flooding into Britain, the weapon of choice for French criminals is the fully automatic military rifle, Canada has seen a spike in shootings, and Japan finally took action against the Yakuza...who used fully automatic weapons in their last gang war that ended around 2013.....they now put people who use guns in prison for life....while in the U.S.....the democrat prosecutor kim foxx won't even press charges against 5 gang members caught on video shooting at each other...

It isn't guns or normal gun owners causing our gun crime issues.....we have a problem with the democrat party attacking the police...something you won't see in Japan, and releasing violent gun criminals no matter how many times they are arrested...something you also won't see in Japan since their conviction rate is over 95%....and criminals caught with mere possession of an illegal gun actually go to prison for 15 years.......if they use the gun for a crime it is life........

We have a democrat party problem...

 

[2aguy]

This is the same FBI that denied for years that the Mafia was a real thing. The same FBI that was less than forthcoming about using incendiaries at Waco.

The FBI needs serious reform.... which has nothing to do with the fact that we have 600 incidents year where more than one person is shot... hence a mass shooting.



I'm not the one downplaying the human carnage inflicted on people of color by your fetish.. that would be you.




Except gun control works just fine in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan and every other advanced country that does it.

View attachment 555208

Those "advanced," countries? Germany murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children over about a 6 year period....Britain, France and the other Europeans took guns away from their citizens then handed people over to the socialists for murder...

More people were murdered by the government of Germany, with the submission of the other European countries, than in 82 years of U.S. criminals murdering each other with guns....

We have nothing to learn from the Europeans, or Japan, who murdered 3 million innocent men, women and children and conducted medical experiments on those same civilians.......sell that to biden voters...

 

[JoeB131]

No...gun control is not working in those countries.....the British police state that guns are flooding into Britain, the weapon of choice for French criminals is the fully automatic military rifle, Canada has seen a spike in shootings, and Japan finally took action against the Yakuza...who used fully automatic weapons in their last gang war that ended around 2013.....they now put people who use guns in prison for life....while in the U.S.....the democrat prosecutor kim foxx won't even press charges against 5 gang members caught on video shooting at each other...

Japan can throw assholes who use gun in prison for life because owning a gun is illegal in Japan. Has been since the Meiji Restoration.

Kim Foxx can't throw gang members in prison because they had a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to a gun and the cops can't tell her who shot first.

Those "advanced," countries? Germany murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children over about a 6 year period....Britain, France and the other Europeans took guns away from their citizens then handed people over to the socialists for murder...

More people were murdered by the government of Germany, with the submission of the other European countries, than in 82 years of U.S. criminals murdering each other with guns....

Uh, guy, we enslaved black people and genocided the Native Americans. At least the Germans have the decency to be sorry about it. We can't even take major cocksucker Andrew Jackson off the $20 bill.

Oh, the Germans had plenty of guns during the war... and most of them fought for Hitler to the last old man and little boy. The Allies had to take their guns away.

We have nothing to learn from the Europeans, or Japan, who murdered 3 million innocent men, women and children and conducted medical experiments on those same civilians.......sell that to biden voters...

Again. Slavery. Native American Genocide. The Philippine War, Vietnam, Iraq. Every country has something really shitty in it's history.

Guns don't stop people from acting shitty, they sometimes make it easier.

 

[Abatis]

Except gun control works just fine in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan and every other advanced country that does it.

You provided an answer that proves you have no clue.

The gun control in many nations, especially European, has been in effect for a long, long time and was put in place for political control not crime control.

Yes, it is a fact that nations with disarmed homogeneous, obedient and compliant subjects don't use guns to kill each other, but that isn't really a case study for enacting gun control here. Even in those nations the recent remedy of more "gun control" as a response to increased criminal misuse of guns, are ineffective and stupid.

Population sectors in those nations who do not have a nationalistic, instilled deference to the government, simply don't pay attention to those centuries old norms and the criminally inclined seek to evade and exploit those mere statutory hurdles. Just look at the Jamaican Yardies and Eastern European crime syndicates in the UK and the Assyrian Kings gang and its offshoots in Australia, they are not impacted in the least by the home nation's strict gun control . . .

The thought that the gun crime that is heavily concentrated in certain population sectors could be reduced by enacting more statutory prohibitions on everyone, including those who are not perpetrating the crime, shows a real lack of critical thinking a profound misunderstanding of crime and human nature.

High gun crime within insular population sectors is immune to blanket gun control.

To just say we (in the USA) need gun control while refusing to examine the behavioral and cultural reasons why gun crime is so prevalent, is dumb and will be celebrated by criminals and resented by the law-abiding who are not part of the problem.

Why did 1.7% of the US population experience 29.4% of the gun murders in 2019?

Is it just the availability of guns? If it was just the availability of guns why isn't the gun murder rate a constant across all demographic sectors? Why do young White men have a gun murder rate that is 20X lower than young Black men?


Screengrabs from CDC WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports:

 

[JoeB131]

You provided an answer that proves you have no clue.

The gun control in many nations, especially European, has been in effect for a long, long time and was put in place for political control not crime control.

Oh, look, you are doing the Dick2Tiny method of spamming the board with garbage.

Actually, 1920 Germany probably had as many guns as 1920 America. While they were passing sensible gun laws (or having gun laws imposed on them after WWII), we had the National Rampage Association flooding our street with Assault Rifles and Saturday Night Specials.

Yes, it is a fact that nations with disarmed homogeneous, obedient and compliant subjects don't use guns to kill each other, but that isn't really a case study for enacting gun control here. Even in those nations the recent remedy of more "gun control" as a response to increased criminal misuse of guns, are ineffective and stupid.

Wait, wait..

I'll take their gun numbers against our any day of the week, thank you.

Population sectors in those nations who do not have a nationalistic, instilled deference to the government, simply don't pay attention to those centuries old norms and the criminally inclined seek to evade and exploit those mere statutory hurdles. Just look at the Jamaican Yardies and Eastern European crime syndicates in the UK and the Assyrian Kings gang and its offshoots in Australia, they are not impacted in the least by the home nation's strict gun control . . .

The UK had 32 Gun homicides in 2015, the last year we have numbers for on GunPolicy.org
Australia had 39 in 2019.
The US had 14389 in 2019.

The problem here isn't "the gangs"... your perpetual fear of "the other", which yes, is engrained in this racist country.

The problem is that 87% of homicides are committed by family members or people the victim knows...

Guns just make that a lot easier....

So will it stop the gangs fighting over who gets to run the Crystal Meth trade on the west side? Nope.
Will it stop that murder that resulted from a fight in the morning over who ate the last donut? Probably.

Is it just the availability of guns? If it was just the availability of guns why isn't the gun murder rate a constant across all demographic sectors? Why do young White men have a gun murder rate that is 20X lower than young Black men?

I was wondering how long it was going to take the racism to take hold.

 

[Abatis]

Oh, look, you are doing the Dick2Tiny method of spamming the board with garbage.

Actually, 1920 Germany probably had as many guns as 1920 America. While they were passing sensible gun laws (or having gun laws imposed on them after WWII),

So you call my points garbage spam and then proceed to confirm my point. I'm not certain a thank you is in order though.

I'll take their gun numbers against our any day of the week, thank you.

And no doubt you would welcome the lack of restrictions on the police power those nations enjoy, allowing them to throw people in jail for life, without any of the rights of the accused US citizens enjoy. As much as you would prefer not announcing it, your statist authoritarian tyranny is a package deal . . . It ain't just altruistic, caring, we're just looking out for your health and safety, "gun control" you are promoting . . .

The problem here isn't "the gangs"... your perpetual fear of "the other", which yes, is engrained in this racist country.

Effectively addressing crime is being handicapped by so much of the governing structure being preoccupied with avoiding at all cost, being called racist . . . This of course forces a policing and prosecutorial agenda that refuses to deal with criminals and they congratulate themselves on that "progress".

The problem is that 87% of homicides are committed by family members or people the victim knows...

Citation please, with links and provide an official definition of terms and if you would like, your personal definition of terms.

So will it stop the gangs fighting over who gets to run the Crystal Meth trade on the west side? Nope.
Will it stop that murder that resulted from a fight in the morning over who ate the last donut? Probably.

And that is a guess based on wishful thinking at best and a blatant fabrication to advance an agenda hostile to the rights of the citizen at worst.

I was wondering how long it was going to take the racism to take hold.

I was wondering what rote leftist gruel you would throw out so you could dance around and evade answering my questions.

Facts aren't racist.

 

[2aguy]

Japan can throw assholes who use gun in prison for life because owning a gun is illegal in Japan. Has been since the Meiji Restoration.

Kim Foxx can't throw gang members in prison because they had a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to a gun and the cops can't tell her who shot first.

View attachment 555353


Uh, guy, we enslaved black people and genocided the Native Americans. At least the Germans have the decency to be sorry about it. We can't even take major cocksucker Andrew Jackson off the $20 bill.

Oh, the Germans had plenty of guns during the war... and most of them fought for Hitler to the last old man and little boy. The Allies had to take their guns away.




Again. Slavery. Native American Genocide. The Philippine War, Vietnam, Iraq. Every country has something really shitty in it's history.

Guns don't stop people from acting shitty, they sometimes make it easier.

No......the Yakuza ignored the laws until they increased the actual prison time for using illegal guns....how do we know? The Yakuza tell us.........

Here, in the U.S...again......5 gang members engage in a shootout...on video......two of them are found at the scene on the ground wounded....and kim foxx, the democrat party prosecutor, refuses to press charges against any of them....

In Japan, they would go to prison for life........they would be off the streets for life........

The democrat party here in the U.S. allows violent gun crime to continue...you would have to explain that one.......normal gun owners aren't shooting anyone....

Japan’s gun control laws so strict the Yakuza turn to toy pistols

Ryo Fujiwara, long-time writer on yakuza affairs and author of the book, The Three Yamaguchi-Gumi, says that the punishment for using a gun in a gang war or in a crime is now so heavy that most yakuza avoid their use at all – unless it is for an assassination.

“In a hit, whoever fires the gun, or is made to take responsibility for firing the gun, has to pretty much be willing to go to jail for the rest of their life. That’s a big decision. The repercussions are big, too. No one wants to claim responsibility for such acts – the gang office might actually get shut-down.”


The gang typically also has to support the family of the hit-man while he is in prison, which is also a financial burden for the organization.
Japan’s Firearms and Swords Control Laws make it a crime to illegally possess a gun, with a punishment of jail time of up to 10 years.


Illegal possession more than one gun, the penalty goes up to 15 years in prison.

If you own a gun and matching ammunition, that’s another charge and a heavier penalty. The most severe penalty is for the act of discharging a gun in a train, on a bus, or most public spaces, which can result in a life sentence.
-----
A low-ranking member of the Kobe-Yamaguchi-gumi put it this way: “All of the smart guys got rid of their guns a long-time ago. The penalties are way too high.

You get life in prison if you just fire a gun. That’s not fun.”

The democrat party prosecutors and judges keep releasing, often without bail.....repeat gun offenders...

In Japan, if you are caught with an illegal gun, you are not released, you are not put on an ankel monitor that you can simply get rid of so you can go out and keep shooting people.....

In Japan, mere possession is 10 years...and you do the 10 years....you do not get released the day after you are arrested...you are not given home confinement...you are not diverted to an anti-violence program...you do 10 years....and if you fire that gun....life in prison...


Japan’s Firearms and Swords Control Laws make it a crime to illegally possess a gun, with a punishment of jail time of up to 10 years.


Illegal possession more than one gun, the penalty goes up to 15 years in prison.