Fuzzy Math

[Nienna]

My son brought home a paper that said, "The goal of the new mathematics curriculum is to understand relationships between numbers, and the identity of numbers themselves. For example, we want students to understand the threeness of three." :shocked: I felt like I should be wearing tie-dye and breaking out the bong!

My daughter is learning the new method of multi-digit addition/subtraction, going from left to right, instead of right to left. They don't want to confuse students by going in the opposite direction they go when they read. Only problem is... uh, how you gonna BORROW? They have only done addition so far. Subtraction should be interesting. Here's a sample addition problem:

124
+399
400
110
+013
523

So they have to add two separate groups of numbers to arrive at the answer. The teacher just can't figure out why they are confused about this. But, obviously, it's much less complicated than going right-to-left and carrying!

Anyone else have serious issues with some of the stuff they are trying to do with the kids these days? Kathianne, I know it's grade school curriculum, but what are your thoughts?

 

[no1tovote4]

Grasping the Threeness of Three is a bit difficult. You have to feel it in your bones, in the center of your being.

I have a friend that sent his kid to a school that tried to teach a semi-cursive script in first grade attempting to prepare them for cursive. It was stupid, the kids had so much trouble making the curlicues etc necessary for the script and were unable to read printing.

 

[Nienna]

Grasping the Threeness of Three is a bit difficult. You have to feel it in your bones, in the center of your being.

Ooookay! I understand it much better now!

I have a friend that sent his kid to a school that tried to teach a semi-cursive script in first grade attempting to prepare them for cursive. It was stupid, the kids had so much trouble making the curlicues etc necessary for the script and were unable to read printing.

Yeah, yeah! See? :scratch:

 

[Annie]

Grasping the Threeness of Three is a bit difficult. You have to feel it in your bones, in the center of your being.

Wait til the kids hit multiplication and division. Since one must focus on the 'process' and rote learning is so passe, they do an interesting method now, thanks U of Chicago: 3X4 is 3+3+3+3. For some reason these kids are running into trouble when they hit 13734X3429. Luckily in parochial school they are tossing aside the text and making the kids learn the math facts, though the class that did follow the program a few years ago is still having serious problems.

I have a friend that sent his kid to a school that tried to teach a semi-cursive script in first grade attempting to prepare them for cursive. It was stupid, the kids had so much trouble making the curlicues etc necessary for the script and were unable to read printing.

It's call D'nealian method. It's crap, but goes right along with not correcting spelling in the 'writing to read' methodology being taught. http://www.matchfonts.com/pages/discov_blocklhandw.html

 

[Nienna]

Seriously, what goes through these people's heads? Can they truly not see the problems with this stuff? I find it so astounding that a person can be so caught up in educational THEORY that they forget to actually EDUCATE the kids! I am having to re-teach my kids a lot of this stuff at home. Why are they wasting seven hours a day, when I have to wipe tears of frustration from their eyes(literally!) and teach them myself when they get home? I also hate the fact that, not infrequently, I find myself saying, "I know your teacher said such-and-such, but really, you need to..." I thought parents and teachers were supposed to work as a team. I hate doing that, but if the alternative is my kid failing, well, what else am I supposed to do? And I really feel sorry for the teachers who know the curriculum is not working, but they are bound to teaching it. I have spoken to several teachers about my concerns, and you can tell that many of them are just biting their tongues.

So who makes these decisions? Do they actually spend time in the classroom working with kids? Or is it some NEA wacko with a bright idea about how to shake things up in the classroom? I would like to strangle them, whoever they are.

 

[Hobbit]

I don't get why they're doing it so stupidly. Now, when I add 124+399, I think of it as 123+400, because it's easier, but I'd rather have learned the long method. Learning the entier process is for advanced math. Sure, you can find the area of a circle by plugging the radius into 2*pi*r^2, but you have to take 2 years of calculus just to know how they get that, and 2 years of advanced calculus just to find out how calculus works.

 

[insein]

I don't get why they're doing it so stupidly. Now, when I add 124+399, I think of it as 123+400, because it's easier, but I'd rather have learned the long method. Learning the entier process is for advanced math. Sure, you can find the area of a circle by plugging the radius into 2*pi*r^2, but you have to take 2 years of calculus just to know how they get that, and 2 years of advanced calculus just to find out how calculus works.

And the bottomline is, no one ever needs calculus in life. Ive taken up to calc 2 in college. ITs been 3 years since i ve taken it. I cant remember a single time in my life when ive needed it. Geometry and grade school math is all ive ever needed in life so far.

 

[Hobbit]

And the bottomline is, no one ever needs calculus in life. Ive taken up to calc 2 in college. ITs been 3 years since i ve taken it. I cant remember a single time in my life when ive needed it. Geometry and grade school math is all ive ever needed in life so far.

I've needed it for advanced computer algorithms, and I've also known several physics and engineering majors who, naturally, use calculus all the time, since it was invented for the purpose of doing physics.

 

[KarlMarx]

My son brought home a paper that said, "The goal of the new mathematics curriculum is to understand relationships between numbers, and the identity of numbers themselves. For example, we want students to understand the threeness of three." :shocked: I felt like I should be wearing tie-dye and breaking out the bong!

Why do drugs when you have this loopy math to distort your perception of reality?

Oh, and bad news about the number "3", it had one of those operations and is taking hormone injections, it is now living in East Hollywood as the letter "B". It felt as if it were a letter living inside a numeral's body and couldn't go living that way.

seriously...


I personally don't see anything wrong with rote learning.. i.e. memorize facts, memorize process... at least for young kids.... the deeper understanding can follow later.

Plus, struggle is part of the learning process... that's how you learn.

 

[Nienna]

I don't get why they're doing it so stupidly. Now, when I add 124+399, I think of it as 123+400, because it's easier, but I'd rather have learned the long method. Learning the entier process is for advanced math. Sure, you can find the area of a circle by plugging the radius into 2*pi*r^2, but you have to take 2 years of calculus just to know how they get that, and 2 years of advanced calculus just to find out how calculus works.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. They seem to want to put the cart before the horse. For example, my son (Kgarten) was sent home a list of sight words he needed to recognize BEFORE they taught them letters and letter sounds! Supposedly, it increases their confidence to be able to "read" these words. Me, I'd rather teach a man to farm than give him one meal. They might have confidence in the short term, but in the long run, how are they going to be able to read a word they have never seen before? Luckily, my son knew his letters and sounds before he entered school. We have been working on "sounding out" words, and he is getting better at that. But I have purposely held out on practicing his "sight words" until he understood the concept of "sounding out." What do parents do who have to work and don't have time for all that?

On a list of reading "strategies" sent home with my daughter last year, they had several suggestions on what to do if you were stuck on a word, including "look at the picture for clues" and "look at the first letter and take a guess." Also, "think about what word would make sense in the story." Okay, if a kid is really stuck, I guess those things might help. But what really struck me was that "sound it out" was the very last thing on a list of about eight things!

Now, my daughter Emma is gifted. She understands both of the addition methods above. I am all for teaching alternative methods to gifted kids, AFTER they teach them the normal way. It would be a blessing for them to have somthing to occupy their minds. But, regular kids, like my daughter Abbie... Last year, multiplication was a two-week crying festival. She couldn't understand multiplication. Found out they were throwing all these "shortcuts" at the kids BEFORE they had memorized 3x4=12. And Abbie is very responsible; she was set on doing it the way the teacher told her because she wanted to do it "the right way." The only problem was that "the right way" was complete jumble in her mind. It took me a week to convince her that it was OKAY to just memorize the facts. Then I drilled her every day. Lo and Behold! She started passing her quizzes!

I always assumed I would have to work with my kids at home to get them through school. Especially in certain subjects (science) where they are taught things that are the opposite of what we believe. But I never thought I would feel like I have to fight "the system" every step of the way.

 

[Nienna]

Why do drugs when you have this loopy math to distort your perception of reality?

Oh, and bad news about the number "3", it had one of those operations and is taking hormone injections, it is now living in East Hollywood as the letter "B". It felt as if it were a letter living inside a numeral's body and couldn't go living that way.

seriously...

Thanks for the laugh, Karl! I can get really wound up about this subject.

I personally don't see anything wrong with rote learning.. i.e. memorize facts, memorize process... at least for young kids.... the deeper understanding can follow later.

Plus, struggle is part of the learning process... that's how you learn.

Exactly!

 

[krisy]

mom4, it's the exact same way here in our school district.The 'new' math they call it. What was wrong with the old math that millions of people including presidents,engineers,scientists and doctors learned?!!!! My son will bring home this math(he is in fifth grade now),and I will have no idea how to help because they have taught him some ridiculously long method that I have to look at for 20 minutes just to get it. The teachers know. They say a lot of parents are frustrated.

Reading was the same way when he was kindergarden. They wanted him to try to know a word by looking at the piture,even tho he had no clue what any of the letters sounded like. Oh,and they do teach the "old" math at his school too. They want them to choose which they like best!!

 

[Said1]

On a list of reading "strategies" sent home with my daughter last year, they had several suggestions on what to do if you were stuck on a word, including "look at the picture for clues" and "look at the first letter and take a guess." Also, "think about what word would make sense in the story." Okay, if a kid is really stuck, I guess those things might help. But what really struck me was that "sound it out" was the very last thing on a list of about eight things!

My daughter ran into to trouble with this, as well as a lot of other kids in her class last year. My neighbour is a teacher and does spec ed for reading also told me that kids are still "guessing" in gr 4-5! He suggested I do it the old fashioned way, flash cards and sound it. I did what he said, for a few minutes everyday and that seemed to take care of the problems she was having in about 2 weeks. This year, my daughter is now ahead of the rest of her class and helps other students. What are these people thinking??

 

[Annie]

My daughter ran into to trouble with this, as well as a lot of other kids in her class last year. My neighbour is a teacher and does spec ed for reading also told me that kids are still "guessing" in gr 4-5! He suggested I do it the old fashioned way, flash cards and sound it. I did what he said, for a few minutes everyday and that seemed to take care of the problems she was having in about 2 weeks. This year, my daughter is now ahead of the rest of her class and helps other students. What are these people thinking??

They 'don't think.' If anyone has ever had the joy of being in 'education classes' you'll quickly realize that there is no discipline within the studies. I kid you not, a lot of the 'studies' are faked, since they figure that 'they know how kids will react, since they are 'experienced.' Mostly they are 'testing' theories that are based on 'common sense' ideas, though after listening to discussions of most teachers, one will readily agree in most circumstances that common sense is not in great supply.

Take the whole 'sight words' that are being discussed in this post. Interesting phenonoma that. For many years at least 90some % of kids that went through k-8 were reading, taught by phonics. Now I would readily grant that many may not have been at 'grade level', whatever that means, but they could read directions, a newspaper, etc. About 30 years ago, in a LD class, it was observed that some kids who were unable to read phonetically, were able to memorize the words and then able to 'read somewhat.' Now that is great, no doubt about it.

So what do the education departments across the land, along with educational text publishers do? Why dearies, they rewrite all the text spelling, reading, and language arts books to fit with this 'new discovery.' They start master's programs on 'whole language' and start dissing phonics as archaic. The result? Now we have over 20% of students in high school that are functionally illiterate. Few students know how to spell.

They took a 'tool' that helped a small % of a small % and extrapolated that into a 'reading program' to be applied across the board, creating a much larger percentage of 'learning disabled' students. And few wish to fight the trend.

 

[Said1]

They 'don't think.' If anyone has ever had the joy of being in 'education classes' you'll quickly realize that there is no discipline within the studies. I kid you not, a lot of the 'studies' are faked, since they figure that 'they know how kids will react, since they are 'experienced.' Mostly they are 'testing' theories that are based on 'common sense' ideas, though after listening to discussions of most teachers, one will readily agree in most circumstances that common sense is not in great supply.

Take the whole 'sight words' that are being discussed in this post. Interesting phenonoma that. For many years at least 90some % of kids that went through k-8 were reading, taught by phonics. Now I would readily grant that many may not have been at 'grade level', whatever that means, but they could read directions, a newspaper, etc. About 30 years ago, in a LD class, it was observed that some kids who were unable to read phonetically, were able to memorize the words and then able to 'read somewhat.' Now that is great, no doubt about it.

So what do the education departments across the land, along with educational text publishers do? Why dearies, they rewrite all the text spelling, reading, and language arts books to fit with this 'new discovery.' They start master's programs on 'whole language' and start dissing phonics as archaic. The result? Now we have over 20% of students in high school that are functionally illiterate. Few students know how to spell.

They took a 'tool' that helped a small % of a small % and extrapolated that into a 'reading program' to be applied across the board, creating a much larger percentage of 'learning disabled' students. And few wish to fight the trend.

I have a 47 yr old friend who learned to read that way. He can only read small words and whatnot. People who have to rely on that method tend to have better sight memory in the first place, for obvious reasons. I can see why this isn't a successful method for the masses though.

 

[Annie]

I have a 47 yr old friend who learned to read that way. He can only read small words and whatnot. People who have to rely on that method tend to have better sight memory in the first place, for obvious reasons. I can see why this isn't a successful method for the masses though.

This would be on par with using braille to teach reading, since it works with blind students. I had a real problem keeping my opinions to myself, not to mention not rolling my eyes in the education courses. It's like being in alternative reality!

 

[Said1]

This would be on par with using braille to teach reading, since it works with blind students. I had a real problem keeping my opinions to myself, not to mention not rolling my eyes in the education courses. It's like being in alternative reality!

Well, the old lady is always looking for a good cause. If she runs out up here, you can borrow her for the next meeting. Her favorite desserts are school board administrators, city council and more recently the mayor.

 

[KarlMarx]

I have a 47 yr old friend who learned to read that way. He can only read small words and whatnot. People who have to rely on that method tend to have better sight memory in the first place, for obvious reasons. I can see why this isn't a successful method for the masses though.

I'll follow up on this conversation. Once, as a sophomore in college, I ran into a friend of my cousin, who was about 5 years older than me and had studied Engineering, as I was doing at the time.

I asked him what he did in his job. When he described it, I was amazed. There wasn't a bit of calculus or physics involved. I then asked him why we had to take so many courses in physics, calculus and other subjects, when it was plain we weren't likely to use them. His answer stuck with me until this very day "... to teach you HOW TO THINK...." and he was right. I've been a programmer for over 25 years and I have to admit that what I learned from doing calculus and physics has helped me do my job.

The same can be applied to learning even on the most elementary level. Instead of teaching kids in a manner that avoids hurting their feelings and spares them from having to struggle, education should teach children HOW TO THINK NOT WHAT TO THINK.

That, I believe, is the essence of many many people's objections with the present day system of education.

We are raising a generation of children that will be educated, but ignorant. A generation that will be unable to reason out an argument but feel good about themselves. That does not bode well for our society. In order to remain free, people must be able to think for themselves, not parrot the latest PC rhetoric coming from the Leftist elites.

 

[Said1]

I'll follow up on this conversation. Once, as a sophomore in college, I ran into a friend of my cousin, who was about 5 years older than me and had studied Engineering, as I was doing at the time.

I asked him what he did in his job. When he described it, I was amazed. There wasn't a bit of calculus or physics involved. I then asked him why we had to take so many courses in physics, calculus and other subjects, when it was plain we weren't likely to use them. His answer stuck with me until this very day "... to teach you HOW TO THINK...." and he was right. I've been a programmer for over 25 years and I have to admit that what I learned from doing calculus and physics has helped me do my job.

The same can be applied to learning even on the most elementary level. Instead of teaching kids in a manner that avoids hurting their feelings and spares them from having to struggle, education should teach children HOW TO THINK NOT WHAT TO THINK.

That, I believe, is the essence of many many people's objections with the present day system of education.

We are raising a generation of children that will be educated, but ignorant. A generation that will be unable to reason out an argument but feel good about themselves. That does not bode well for our society. In order to remain free, people must be able to think for themselves, not parrot the latest PC rhetoric coming from the Leftist elites.

I worked with kids for many years and to be honest, teaching is not my strong point - good thing I wasn't a teacher.

Anyway, with that said I find what you wrote to be very true, and tried to do as many activities as possible that would encourage the development of their critical thinking skills. This could be done in a number of ways, but their favorite thing was always arguing, so why not teach them to do it properly. I would say something like "i'm only giving cheese for lunch from now on. That's it, only cheese." and then they'd list reasons why I can't do that, I'd counter their arguments and so on. Future USMBers.

 

[Nienna]

What can be done about this? Who can we talk to to get REAL common sense back into the curriculum? Can't anything be done?