From Feeding the Hungry to Fueling Falsehoods: Twisting Netanyahu’s Gaza Policy After Oct 7. [Before 10/7 he helped Gazans, not to boost Hamas]

[Shusha]

Um, no, guy, you want to ethnically cleanse the Arabs, who are the indigenous people.

The Arabs are colonizers (its in the name). You can tell by the culture they hold. What language do they speak? What religion do they practice? What clothing traditions have they adopted? What traditional holidays do they keep? Arab Palestinian's culture developed elsewhere and was transported to the locality. The previously existing cultures were replaced with the colonizing culture. That is what colonization is: replacement of one culture with a culture originating elsewhere.

The Jewish culture, though it migrated throughout the world, largely against the will of the Jewish people, originated in that locality.

I have vehemently repeated over and over that I do not support ethnic cleansing of any peoples based on their race, ethnicity, religion, or nationality. It is tiresome to be constantly accused of things I have never said or supported and have actively posted against. It is a childish debate tactic. And it is especially rich from you, since you demand the ethnic cleansing of five million people based on their race and ethnicity.

Uh, guy, get bent. Even if you read the Big Book of Bronze Age Fairy Tales, the Jews were never the sole inhabitants. In addition to the 10 Northern Tribes (who broke away after Solomon, if they were ever in on the deal) you have the Moabites, Ammonites, Philistines, Amelekites (who got genocided several times), Aramites, Edomites, etc.

Where did I ever say that the Jewish people were the sole inhabitants? Um, that would be never. What I said is that the Jewish people are the only surviving pre-conquest culture. You bring me a group of recognizably cultural Moabites and I will immediately support handing over traditional territory to them for their self-determination.

Now, the difference between that and the United States is that Americans have been here long enough to be a mixture. I happen to be one-eighth Cherokee on my mom's side, but my dad's side is fresh off the boat from Germany. My wife is fresh off the plane from China. So there's no real way to score "indigeneity" in the US, really. Do I go back to Germany for half the year?

Once again, this is not about blood quantum. It is about culture. There is a way to score indigeneity: the culture originated in the territory. The Cherokee culture originated in the southeastern US. They are indigenous. The Chinese culture originated elsewhere. Not indigenous. The German culture originated elsewhere. Not indigenous.

And no, you shouldn't go back to Germany for half a year. According to your discriminatory demands on Jews, every single descendant of European colonizers should return to their European country of origin "where they came from". That is what you are demanding of the Jewish people. Apply that standard to yourself.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, you have nothing to say except you hate Jews.

Your concession is duly noted.

 

[JoeB131]

The Arabs are colonizers (its in the name). You can tell by the culture they hold. What language do they speak? What religion do they practice? What clothing traditions have they adopted? What traditional holidays do they keep? Arab Palestinian's culture developed elsewhere and was transported to the locality. The previously existing cultures were replaced with the colonizing culture. That is what colonization is: replacement of one culture with a culture originating elsewhere.

The Jewish culture, though it migrated throughout the world, largely against the will of the Jewish people, originated in that locality.

You mean they got driven out after the Romans got tired of putting up with their shit.

The point is, Palestine has been Arabic for the last 1400 years. The Jews became, essentially, Europeans, adopting European Dress, Language and Culture. The problem was, they couldn't get along with their fellow Europeans.

I have vehemently repeated over and over that I do not support ethnic cleansing of any peoples based on their race, ethnicity, religion, or nationality. It is tiresome to be constantly accused of things I have never said or supported and have actively posted against. It is a childish debate tactic. And it is especially rich from you, since you demand the ethnic cleansing of five million people based on their race and ethnicity.

Nope, they should just go back where they came from.

Where did I ever say that the Jewish people were the sole inhabitants? Um, that would be never. What I said is that the Jewish people are the only surviving pre-conquest culture. You bring me a group of recognizably cultural Moabites and I will immediately support handing over traditional territory to them for their self-determination.

I think you are being a bit disingenuous here. Hebrew wasn't a functioning language even in the time of Jesus, when they all spoke Aramaic. The Israeli culture is a largely manufactured one.

Once again, this is not about blood quantum. It is about culture. There is a way to score indigeneity: the culture originated in the territory. The Cherokee culture originated in the southeastern US. They are indigenous. The Chinese culture originated elsewhere. Not indigenous. The German culture originated elsewhere. Not indigenous.

I agree. The Ashkenazim culture is European, it should stay in Europe.

The difference between America and Palestine is that America welcomed immigrants. Or at least we used to until the Orange Menace was put in charge. Nobody welcomed Europe's Jews to Palestine, they invaded.

And no, you shouldn't go back to Germany for half a year. According to your discriminatory demands on Jews, every single descendant of European colonizers should return to their European country of origin "where they came from". That is what you are demanding of the Jewish people. Apply that standard to yourself.

No need to.

There is a difference between an established culture and a colonial one.

When my Grandfather came here, he had to learn English. He stopped calling himself "Ludwig" and started calling himself "Louis". He changed the way we pronounce the family name. (Or he just got tired of correcting people). He had to swear allegience to the US, and his son fought for America, not Germany (even though he was a citizen of both.)

On the other hand, Colonial Cultures had to leave when empires were over. America left the Philippines, The British left Kenya. The French left Vietnam. the Belgian left the Congo. They returned those lands to the indigenous people.

 

[Shusha]

You mean they got driven out after the Romans got tired of putting up with their shit.

See, you say stuff like this and it demonstrates how internally inconsistent your argument is. This statement seems to imply that it is permissible, even desirable, to drive out people from territory. Here you give permission for, even applaud, the colonizer (we do agree that the Romans were conquerors/colonizers, yes?) to drive out an indigenous peoples (we do agree that the Jewish people were indigenous prior to the Diaspora, yes?)

So yours is not an argument based on indigenous driving out colonizers. Make it make sense. Perhaps consider using another example to demonstrate consistent, objective thinking.

 

[Shusha]

I think you are being a bit disingenuous here. Hebrew wasn't a functioning language

Colossal ignorance. The Hebrew language was able to be restored precisely because it remained in use for thousands of years and because of the will of the culture as a collective to restore it to everyday use. There are now more than nine million people in the world who speak Hebrew fluently.

 

[Shusha]

There is a difference between an established culture and a colonial one.

There is a difference between immigration (assimilation, adaptation, integration) and colonization (compulsion, coercion, compliance).

When my Grandfather came here, he had to learn English. He stopped calling himself "Ludwig" and started calling himself "Louis". He changed the way we pronounce the family name. (Or he just got tired of correcting people). He had to swear allegience to the US, and his son fought for America, not Germany (even though he was a citizen of both.)

Yes. Your grandfather immigrated, he didn't colonize. He went to a territory not of his culture and adopted the culture of that territory. He didn't apply his culture to the people of the territory, he adopted theirs. That is immigration.

Had your grandfather colonized, he would have compelled the residents of the territory he travelled to to speak his language and adopt his culture. That is colonization. English is a colonizing language and culture. Spanish is a colonizing language and culture. Arabic is a colonizing language and culture. Hebrew is not.

Cherokee territory was colonized, not immigrated. How can we tell? Because the colonizing language and culture was forced on the Cherokee people, rather than the immigrants adopting the existing Cherokee territorial language and culture. See how easy this is?

You are going to want to argue that Hebrew is a colonizing language and culture (while somehow also arguing that Jewish culture is entirely manufactured and also that Jews are culturally European. Make it make sense.) But you would be wrong to do so. And here's why. The Jewish people, along with their language and culture, pre-existed the conquest and colonization of the territory. The act of peeling back the layers of conquest and colonization, and restoring the originating (indigenous) culture is the act of decolonization.

Exactly the same as if the Cherokee people were able to re-assert their language and culture in the territory of their origins. That would be an act of decolonization.

On the other hand, Colonial Cultures had to leave when empires were over. They returned those lands to the indigenous people.

Exactly. Colonial cultures are a product of empires expanding into territory not their own. When those empires collapse, the colonizers return to their territory of origin (remember that word, its important) and the indigenous peoples are restored (decolonized).

The Jewish people have never been an empire that expanded outward and imposed the Jewish language and culture on others. There is no empire to go "back" to. No expansion and then retreat. The origins of the Jewish people are in the territory that is Israel. That is their home.


Bonus question: Name me an empire which is still expanding.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

The Jews were certainly ‘colonising’ Gaza, when they totally withdrew. (Deep sarcasm)

Leaving behind all the lovely greenhouses, and other stuff.

And look what the Pals did with it!

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Israel, colonising the Arab world.

 

[JoeB131]

See, you say stuff like this and it demonstrates how internally inconsistent your argument is. This statement seems to imply that it is permissible, even desirable, to drive out people from territory. Here you give permission for, even applaud, the colonizer (we do agree that the Romans were conquerors/colonizers, yes?) to drive out an indigenous peoples (we do agree that the Jewish people were indigenous prior to the Diaspora, yes?)

So yours is not an argument based on indigenous driving out colonizers. Make it make sense. Perhaps consider using another example to demonstrate consistent, objective thinking.

Hey, pointing out the Romans did something doesn't mean I approve of it. I also don't want to bring back gladiatorial games.

Although throwing Christians to lions... I could probably get behind that. At least for the Evangelicals. Maybe the Mormons. Oh, wait, that never actually happened.

A lot of behavior was acceptable in the past that is clearly not acceptable now. Now, yes, it really sucks for the Jews that they finally clawed their way to the big-boy table, only to find out that certain awful behaviors are no longer acceptable. But those behaviors aren't acceptable.

Colossal ignorance. The Hebrew language was able to be restored precisely because it remained in use for thousands of years and because of the will of the culture as a collective to restore it to everyday use. There are now more than nine million people in the world who speak Hebrew fluently.

But they weren't speaking it in Europe, they were speaking Yiddish (which is just corrupted, gutter German).

es. Your grandfather immigrated, he didn't colonize. He went to a territory not of his culture and adopted the culture of that territory. He didn't apply his culture to the people of the territory, he adopted theirs. That is immigration.

Exactly. And if the Ashkenazim did that, there probably wouldn't be an issue.

Exactly. Colonial cultures are a product of empires expanding into territory not their own. When those empires collapse, the colonizers return to their territory of origin (remember that word, its important) and the indigenous peoples are restored (decolonized).

Exactly. The British Empire collapsed. The Zionists need to go back to Europe where they came from.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Hey, pointing out the Romans did something doesn't mean I approve of it. I also don't want to bring back gladiatorial games.

Although throwing Christians to lions... I could probably get behind that. At least for the Evangelicals. Maybe the Mormons. Oh, wait, that never actually happened.

A lot of behavior was acceptable in the past that is clearly not acceptable now. Now, yes, it really sucks for the Jews that they finally clawed their way to the big-boy table, only to find out that certain awful behaviors are no longer acceptable. But those behaviors aren't acceptable.



But they weren't speaking it in Europe, they were speaking Yiddish (which is just corrupted, gutter German).



Exactly. And if the Ashkenazim did that, there probably wouldn't be an issue.



Exactly. The British Empire collapsed. The Zionists need to go back to Europe where they came from.

 

[JoeB131]

The Jews were certainly ‘colonising’ Gaza, when they totally withdrew. (Deep sarcasm)

Leaving behind all the lovely greenhouses, and other stuff.

And look what the Pals did with it!

You mean they tore down the Colonists' stuff? As well they should

Israel, colonising the Arab world.


View attachment 1159825

Begs the question why you are so keen to live smack dab in the middle of people who hate you.

Could it because people are going to hate you no matter where you go, and you think you've found people you can bully into submission?

 

[ShahdagMountains]

You mean they tore down the Colonists' stuff? As well they should



Begs the question why you are so keen to live smack dab in the middle of people who hate you.

Could it because people are going to hate you no matter where you go, and you think you've found people you can bully into submission?

View attachment 1159860

^ More psycho babble.

 

[JoeB131]

^ More psycho babble.

Another point avoided.

It really does beg the question... why are you so keen to live amongst people who hate you?

Let's leave aside whether or not they have a good reason to hate you. They hate you. They'd kill you if given the opportunity.

Now, me, if I saw my neighbors strapping explosives onto little Timmy and pointing him at my house, I wouldn't want to live in that neighborhood.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Another point avoided.

It really does beg the question... why are you so keen to live amongst people who hate you?

Let's leave aside whether or not they have a good reason to hate you. They hate you. They'd kill you if given the opportunity.

Now, me, if I saw my neighbors strapping explosives onto little Timmy and pointing him at my house, I wouldn't want to live in that neighborhood.

Blah.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Greta heads to Gaza: What’s waiting for her?

“Straight Up” with Danny Seaman and guest Tal Gilad

www.jns.org

 

[teddyearp]

Never have I ever heard you say that European colonizers and their descendants living in the US (and other colonized places) must return to Europe where they came from. Nor have I heard you say it about any of the other colonized places in the world. You've only said it about the Jewish people. (And then only about one small group of Jews. I have no idea where you think the Mizrahi Jews should go. Or do they get to stay?)

This global push to demonize 'colonizers' is just plain stupid. Syria, Turkey and Iraq were 'colonized' by the Akkadians thousands of years ago and it has just been a continuous stream of 'colonization' ever since. In the U.S., where do you stop? Kick the Europeans out, but then, gotta kick the Sioux out of everywhere they are now and send them back to the Great Lakes region. And it just goes on from there into complete insanity; which is where the whole damn world is trying to go anyways . . .

 

[teddyearp]

Arab Palestinian self-government has been a reality for 25/35 years. Never has it brought peace. For the reasons you pointed out in previous posts. Arabs will never "submit" and will fight forever until all of the Jews leave.

I have the poster you responded to on ignore, however, Israel was behind the 1967 borders from 1948 to 1967. Why the **** didn't the Palestinians form their own state then?

This bullshit show just keeps going around in circles, especially when people like Joe will just deflect and ignore any truth.

 

[Shusha]

Exactly. The British Empire collapsed. The Zionists need to go back to Europe where they came from.

The Jewish people are not British. The Jewish people are not part of the British empire. The Jewish people are unique and distinct from them. Stop conflating the two.

 

[Shusha]

But they weren't speaking it in Europe, they were speaking Yiddish (which is just corrupted, gutter German).

Don't be silly. Of course Hebrew was in use in Europe.

 

[Shusha]

This global push to demonize 'colonizers' is just plain stupid.

I would have much more tolerance for it if it was applied evenly and equally to all "colonizers", but really it is only applied to Jews (who, most ironically, are not colonizers at all, but decolonizers).