Free Will

[Blues Man]

The OP has confused the mechanics for how decisions are made for there are no real choices.

Everything is choice. Only people with an external locus of control believe they have no choice in matters.

Everything is NOT a choice.

You did not choose your parents or the genetic makeup they gave you. You did not choose how you were reared, you did not choose every piece of information that has been recorded by your senses and all these things influence your behavior at any given moment in time without you being conscious of them.

And once again you ignore the point I told you i was working towards

that it is actually better to believe we have free choice than not to.

 

[Blues Man]

I thought my initial post was pretty clear. So, no. I don't need you to do anything for me.

Free Will

Is free will an illusion? There are arguments to support this claim. For example Test subjects while monitored by FMRI have shown that people actually make a decision subconsciously with no awareness the choice has been made then the conscious brain just supports the subconscious decision and...

www.usmessageboard.com

You mean where you thought you were clever by quoting me from other threads so you could say I was contradicting myself?

None of that had anything to do with this topic or with where I was going with it.

 

[ding]

Everything is NOT a choice.

You did not choose your parents or the genetic makeup they gave you. You did not choose how you were reared, you did not choose every piece of information that has been recorded by your senses and all these things influence your behavior at any given moment in time without you being conscious of them.

And once again you ignore the point I told you i was working towards

that it is actually better to believe we have free choice than not to.

People who believe they have no free will are literally transferring their control to an external source (i.e. they give away their power). That's a nihilistic and fatalistic way of thinking.

 

[Care4all]

Is free will an illusion?

There are arguments to support this claim.

For example Test subjects while monitored by FMRI have shown that people actually make a decision subconsciously with no awareness the choice has been made then the conscious brain just supports the subconscious decision and tells us that we consciously chose a banana instead of an apple for example, when the opposite is true.

There are a lot of ethical and sociological implications to this.

I think it would make an interesting discussion.

But isn't the subconscious, simply real life conscious experiences that your mind remembers and stores, and uses for expediency later when circumstance arrives?

i.e. the subconscious chose the banana over apple because that is what you taught it previously in time?

 

[ding]

You mean where you thought you were clever by quoting me from other threads so you could say I was contradicting myself?

None of that had anything to do with this topic or with where I was going with it.

No, I thought I was pointing out your incongruity. Nothing clever about that. I was just being objective. The relevance to the topic is the credibility of the OP. It's not credible and you yourself have proven that by previously stating a belief that was diametrically opposed to the premise of the OP. That's the relevance.

 

[Blues Man]

People who believe they have no free will are literally transferring their control to an external source (i.e. they give away their power). That's a nihilistic and fatalistic way of thinking.

Here we go again.

How many times do I have to tell you that the point I was working towards is that people are better off believing they have free will than not?

 

[Blues Man]

But isn't the subconscious, simply real life conscious experiences that your mind remembers and stores, and uses for expediency later when circumstance arrives?

i.e. the subconscious chose the banana over apple because that is what you taught it previously in time?

It is but you did not choose all those things that are buried in your subconscious.

You did not choose the genetics that might make a banana taste bad to you or that makes cilantro taste like soap

You did not choose the conditioning your parents and society has worked on you.

 

[Blues Man]

No, I thought I was pointing out your incongruity. Nothing clever about that. I was just being objective. The relevance to the topic is the credibility of the OP. It's not credible and you yourself have proven that by previously stating a belief that was diametrically opposed to the premise of the OP. That's the relevance.

Unlike you I can look at subjects from different points of view

 

[Care4all]

It is but you did not choose all those things that are buried in your subconscious.

You did not choose the genetics that might make a banana taste bad to you or that makes cilantro taste like soap

You did not choose the conditioning your parents and society has worked on you.

I was conditioned and taught by my parents and society that smoking cigarettes was bad, a no no, when just a kid...hounded in to me... I still chose to smoke when in my teens and twenties...I had the free will to do such.....then the struggle to quit later on?

 

[ding]

Here we go again.

How many times do I have to tell you that the point I was working towards is that people are better off believing they have free will than not?

Believing things on the basis of what is better off for them is effectively the definition of subjectivity and not recommended. God doesn't want us to love him for what he can do for us. God wants us to love him for who he is. In that regard God is no different than us.

 

[ding]

Unlike you I can look at subjects from different points of view

It doesn't seem that way to me. It seems that you only see things one way. Your way. And that is why you have difficulty with people who don't see things your way.

 

[Care4all]

It is but you did not choose all those things that are buried in your subconscious.

You did not choose the genetics that might make a banana taste bad to you or that makes cilantro taste like soap

You did not choose the conditioning your parents and society has worked on you.

This is an argument among some Christians as well.... Are you predestined, or is there freewill?

Did God choose you, before you were born, to be "saved"? Was your name written in to the book of Life before you were born?

Or is there freewill for you to choose the path to everlasting life, through the proverbial narrow gate of entrance?

This argument is not new among the religious either... at least not in my circle....

 

[Blues Man]

I was conditioned and taught by my parents and society that smoking cigarettes was bad, a no no, when just a kid...hounded in to me... I still chose to smoke when in my teens and twenties...I had the free will to do such.....then the struggle to quit later on?

Or did you just succumb to peer pressure?

Here's the thing the brain is not a closed program it's open source and receiving data all the time it is impossible to know what all that data is and it is impossible to know what percentage of your decision making is unconscious and therefore beyond your control.

I for one am fascinated by this aspect of human beings

 

[Blues Man]

This is an argument among some Christians as well.... Are you predestined, or is there freewill?

Did God choose you, before you were born, to be "saved"? Was your name written in to the book of Life before you were born?

Or is there freewill for you to choose the path to everlasting life, through the proverbial narrow gate of entrance?

This argument is not new among the religious either... at least not in my circle....

If you believe that a god hand crafted your soul to be put in a body on this planet then you have to admit that you do not have 100% free will

 

[Blues Man]

It doesn't seem that way to me. It seems that you only see things one way. Your way. And that is why you have difficulty with people who don't see things your way.

Really and you don't?

I am arguing from 2 different points of view and you can't seem to understand that just because I argue from a position that I don;t necessarily have to agree with that position 100%

You are a concrete black and white thinker

And reality is nothing but shades of gray

 

[Blues Man]

Believing things on the basis of what is better off for them is effectively the definition of subjectivity and not recommended. God doesn't want us to love him for what he can do for us. God wants us to love him for who he is. In that regard God is no different than us.

everything about human behavior has a subjective element to it.

We do not see the world as it is we see it as out brain interprets the sensory information collected by our bodies.

The differences in those sensory systems and in the physiology and neurochemistry of the brain between individuals means that no 2 people experience anything in exactly the same way which means that all those experiences have a large degree of subjectivity involved in their interpretations

 

[ding]

Really and you don't?

I am arguing from 2 different points of view and you can't seem to understand that just because I argue from a position that I don;t necessarily have to agree with that position 100%

You are a concrete black and white thinker

And reality is nothing but shades of gray

You are arguing out of both sides of your two faces. Reality is. There's aren't shades of reality. There are shades of perception of reality. And when I am proven wrong about anything I rejoice because that means I have discovered objective truth.

 

[ding]

everything about human behavior has a subjective element to it.

We do not see the world as it is we see it as out brain interprets the sensory information collected by our bodies.

The differences in those sensory systems and in the physiology and neurochemistry of the brain between individuals means that no 2 people experience anything in exactly the same way which means that all those experiences have a large degree of subjectivity involved in their interpretations

No, it doesn't. Subjectivity is eliminated when bias is eliminated. People can be objective. Objective truth can be discovered.

 

[Blues Man]

You are arguing out of both sides of your two faces. Reality is. There's aren't shades of reality. There are shades of perception of reality. And when I am proven wrong about anything I rejoice because that means I have discovered objective truth.

We do not know what reality is because we do not see the actual world we see what our limited sensory organs translate into chemical and electrical impulses that our brains give us an interpretation of.

Reality is nothing but shades of gray and human behavior is nothing but more shades of gray.

We don't really know how the brain works anymore than we know the universe and all we understand about the universe is about 5% of all the matter and energy in it.

 

[Blues Man]

No, it doesn't. Subjectivity is eliminated when bias is eliminated. People can be objective. Objective truth can be discovered.

Only when we eliminate the subconscious which we cannot do